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Hi just after some guidance really. Been playing Eldar/Dark Eldar for a little over a year and am ready for a change, so Grey Knights. This is my first attempt at a GK list trying to get the most out of the nemesis vanguard box as I feel it's great value even if perhaps not the best optimised, particularly the land raider variant. But anyway what do you think to this?

HQ
Grand master
Soul Glaive
205pts

ML3 librarian
Hammer
Cobi flamer
150pts

Troops
2 x 5x terminators
Psycannon
Hammer
414 pts

Elites
2 x 5 purifiers
1x incinerator
4x falcions
292pts

Fast Attack
5x interceptors
1 incinerator
4x falcions
151pts

Heavy support
Lanraider
Multi Malta
260pts

Nemesis dreadknight
Teleport homer
Gatling psilincer
Heavy psycannon
Great sword
235pts

Allies

Vinicare assassin
150pts

Total 1862

I can see I'm lacking AA and mainly playing against chaos heldrakes might cause me some problems. Any suggestions or improvements? I'm pretty set on getting the vanguard box though.



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Also am I understanding the specialist weapon rule correctly? Because they have two falcions they gain an extra attack right?

I would exchange the Grandmaster for a Stormraven if you can get one. The anti-air is much more needed than the extra HQ.

If you do that and drop two pairs of Falchions from the Interceptors you'll be a point under the 1850 mark instead of 12 points over.

Fantome wrote:

Also am I understanding the specialist weapon rule correctly? Because they have two falcions they gain an extra attack right?

Yes Falchions give +1 attack because they then benefit from having two close combat weapons (they are also AP3 and Force, so eat Power Armor for breakfast, and have a decent chance against monstrous creatures too if you get Hammerhand up).

I was warey of so many points being tied up in the grandmaster although I do like the idea of two hqs and all the warpcharge they provide.

Think I'd definitely do some trimming to swqueeze a stormraven in when I take the list to 2k. I'm guessing you'd consider this a better move than taking a second dreadknight?

Also am I hamstrimming myself by tying myself to nemisis vanguard box and being stuck with a godhammer landraider instead of a variant? Most probably a redeemer? It just looks to me like the godhammer is one of the few ways to get some much needed las on the table.

Just feel like I'm really missing a unit that does what my fire dragons do for my Eldar.


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Also is there any place for razorbacks in GK any more? They seem to catch a lot of hate but don't seem like to bad an option to me.

Fantome wrote:
I was warey of so many points being tied up in the grandmaster although I do like the idea of two hqs and all the warpcharge they provide.

Think I'd definitely do some trimming to swqueeze a stormraven in when I take the list to 2k. I'm guessing you'd consider this a better move than taking a second dreadknight?

Also am I hamstrimming myself by tying myself to nemisis vanguard box and being stuck with a godhammer landraider instead of a variant? Most probably a redeemer? It just looks to me like the godhammer is one of the few ways to get some much needed las on the table.

Just feel like I'm really missing a unit that does what my fire dragons do for my Eldar.

Also is there any place for razorbacks in GK any more? They seem to catch a lot of hate but don't seem like to bad an option to me.

That's the new Grey Knights for ya'. A couple units are great, most of the rest are "meh".

The Grey Knights produce more Warp Charges than virtually every army, so you don't really have to worry about those. Exchanging the Grand Master for a Stormraven still leaves you with 11 + d6 Warp Charges, instead of 13 + d6. Not much of a noticeable difference.

I definitely recommend a Stormraven as early as you can fit it in, because you will eventually encounter Cheesy 3+ Flier lists, and the game is more fun if you have a chance to do something about that. I got tabled by a 2000 point Necron list with 6 fliers, 3 of which had some sort of AP2 beam that kept erasing my Terminators.

I also caution that Dreadknights work best in pairs. One by himself draws a lot of fire, so I do recommend getting another one of those eventually. But yes, I would get the Stormraven first.

Razorbacks... Oh Razorbacks. In the Previous Codex they were cheap, and they could be taken for strong PAGK units. But with the 10 point nerf, and the loss of Psybolts, the standard Razorback isn't worth their points. Adding to the problem is that It can't compete with the Stormraven or the Interceptors for the Fast Attack slot, and taking it as a Dedicated Transport has a PAGK (all of which took a major nerf when the Psycannon became Salvo) tax (Purifiers being the only reasonable choice). Interceptors don't get Dedicated Transports, Strike Squads aren't worth their points, and Purgation Squads suffer from the same problem as Strike Squads but also have to compete with the Dreadknight for that Heavy Support slot.

Yeah was going to have my purifiers rolling in the land raider, kinda takes away my need for razorbacks.

Shame that the stomraven is almost a must include, I was kinda hoping to be able to build a decent army without one, I just don't really like the look of them that much nor their rule in the army. It just feels like an insurance policy. Having said I can totally see and take on board your point.

Other than possibly a flyer then are there any other pointers you have? When I first thought about doing grey knights my initial inspiration was a pimped out 5 man paladin squad rolling in a landraider redeemer. But I just can squeeze it in. Might just give it a try anyway as for me that's what this army should be about, not just relying on (the perhaps necessary) air support.

Fantome wrote:
Yeah was going to have my purifiers rolling in the land raider, kinda takes away my need for razorbacks.

Shame that the stomraven is almost a must include, I was kinda hoping to be able to build a decent army without one, I just don't really like the look of them that much nor their rule in the army. It just feels like an insurance policy. Having said I can totally see and take on board your point.

Other than possibly a flyer then are there any other pointers you have? When I first thought about doing grey knights my initial inspiration was a pimped out 5 man paladin squad rolling in a landraider redeemer. But I just can squeeze it in. Might just give it a try anyway as for me that's what this army should be about, not just relying on (the perhaps necessary) air support.

Paladins, Apothecary, Psycannon, Hammer, 4 pairs of Falchions (341)

Terminators, +4 Terminators, Psycannon, Hammer, 4 pairs of Falchions (343)

Killy-ness:
Paladins have 14 attacks in close combat (2 of those at double Strength)
Terminators have 22 attacks in close combat (2 of those at double Strength)

Paladins have 3 Storm Bolters, and a Psycannon for a total of 10 shots (4 of those at S7)
Terminators have 8 Storm Bolters, and a Psycannon for a total of 20 shots (4 of those at S7)

Survivability:
Paladins have 5 models with 2 Wounds each, for a total of 10 Wounds.
Terminators have 9 models with 1 Wound each, for a total of 9 Wounds.

Paladins have Feel No Pain, giving them an extra 1/3 chance of avoiding a wound that doesn't cause Instant Death.
Terminators only have 1 Wound each, so Instant Death is no scarier to them than any other weapon.

Conclusion:
Terminators are about twice as "killy" as similarly geared Paladins and roughly as survivable, for only 2 extra points (35 more if you want to take a 10th Terminator to allow Combat Squads) So I think they are the clear choice for most games.

Paladins are much better as a juggernaut 10-man unit for large point games (Apocalypse). A couple Librarians with them could give them a 4++ Invulnerable save through Sanctuary (Sanctic), Forwarning (Divination), or Fiery Form (Pyromancy). Sanctic would be the best bet as he has a 2/3 probability of getting it if he's ML3 and takes the Relic book. A second Librarian could take his 3 powers from Telepathy for the 50% chance of Invisibility. So with a 2+, 4++, with a 5+ FNP, and only being hit on 6s, this unit would be almost untouchable, which it should be for a 1,000 point unit of 12 models.

Fantastic break down thank you. That really puts things in perspective. Combat squadded terminators it is then.

How do you feel about spammig combat squadded purifiers, benefitting from their ML 2 twice and then torching everything with their psychic flame attack? Might even be able to deal with flyers? Possibly?

Fantome wrote:
Fantastic break down thank you. That really puts things in perspective. Combat squadded terminators it is then.

How do you feel about spammig combat squadded purifiers, benefitting from their ML 2 twice and then torching everything with their psychic flame attack? Might even be able to deal with flyers? Possibly?

Purifiers can't Deep Strike, and they have pretty poor mobility. You can stick both combat squads of each unit in their Dedicated Transport Rhino. Two models can fire out of the top hatch, so if you pick one model from each combat squad, you can fire 2 Cleansing Flames from the back of each Rhino.

S5 means Cleansing Flame can only glance AV11, so enemy Fliers with AV12 would still be a problem.


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Remember Cleansing Flame is a 2 Warp Charge power, and each Combat Squad only generates 2 Warp Dice, so you have to make good use of your Warp dice.

Ahhhh I was thinking Clensing flame was strength 6. Still an option I'll consider.

But it looks like the storm raven is the only real Anti air choice.

Still feel I'm missing that 'click to delete unit' such as fire dragons melts vets/sternguard etc. Guess it's just not there.

Also how do you feel the vindicare fits in with this or any other grey knights list?