Interesting change to Kickstarter terms and conditions

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**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

here's the relevant bit

When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.

Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.

If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
•they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
•they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
•they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
•they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
•they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.

The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.

as you can see a project CAN now fail to deliver and still technically fulfil KS terms and conditions

I can see why they've done this (probably to further insulate themselves from potential law suits, if a project 'fulfils there's no legal case to answer)

but I fear it may make certain classes of reckless (or crooked) project creators more inclined to set up projects to take advantage of this

also

The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project. We ask creators to think carefully, set a date they feel confident they can work toward, and communicate with backers about any changes.

not certain if this is new, but it's there in black and while; estimate means estimate

**Ahtman**

It is almost like you are investing in a project now and not just pre-ordering through a store. I guess this means people will have to do their due diligence to avoid losing their investment.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

I suspect at least some CC providers will consider these T&C when people try doing chargebacks too.....

as you say, do your research, don't pledge more than you can afford to use, etc

**nkelsch**

And that anyone who does credit card chargebacks against KS is committing 'FRAUD' and does not have a legitimate legal claim to do a chargeback for a failed project due to the TOS. So a project can fail, as long as the creator is upfront and honest, there is no ability to get your money back.

I think all the Credit Card Chargebacks that make Amazon eat the costs is really what is causing this. Now Amazon has the ability to go after backers who do this.

**Alpharius**

This doesn't seem like a good thing for anyone other than Kickstarter Inc.

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

Ahtman wrote:
It is almost like you are investing in a project now and not just pre-ordering through a store. I guess this means people will have to do their due diligence to avoid losing their investment.

This. Very strongly this. I never really understood the people who acted otherwise.

**spiralingcadaver**

Yeah, I've seen some fail to deliver because they're irresponsible, and a few fail to deliver but try their damndest and it's been de-facto these outlines. I'm fine with this change making it official.

**weeble1000**

Alpharius wrote:
This doesn't seem like a good thing for anyone other than Kickstarter Inc.

KS appears to be building a bit of insulation around itself with respect to potential litigation. The no material misrepresentations bit is pretty important. That was always fodder for a lawsuit, but now it is explicitly stated in the KS terms.

Basically, a material misrepresentation is a deliberate omission, obfuscation, etc. of a fact that is material to an agreement. It means that if you had known X, Y, or Z you would have not entered into the agreement or would have significantly altered the terms.

Now, that's until the deal is done, right, so I suspect that it would cover communications up until a project is funded.

**Dentry**

spiralingcadaver wrote:
Yeah, I've seen some fail to deliver because they're irresponsible, and a few fail to deliver but try their damndest and it's been de-facto these outlines. I'm fine with this change making it official.

Have to agree. The legitimate kickstarters that've failed usually have the creator try and provide something to backers by way of closure.

Not sure that this really changes anything except, as has been pointed out, Kickstarter is perhaps better protected from legal action. I'm not confident that's a good thing, either; less incentive for them to monitor/police crowdfunding attempts through their service.

Have they been good recently about enforcing their own ToS?

**Theduke07**

All they did was clear up what everyone should have known by now. Thought this was clear after the lawsuits against failed projects fell thru. Guess KS just needed to cover their uncaring ass. Expect more bs legal fraud.

**Theophony**

How can they think they are covered from lawsuits against projects that are pure scams though, or any for that matter? Look at the defiant games KS. Supposedly they research these ideas before approving them (which is essentially endorsing a company) to go live. Plus they take a stake in every project of 10%. Right there I think is a big target on them for lawsuits. Surprised that they think this might protect them.

**RiTides**

I'm sure they think it can't hurt to try! And I think it will help them somewhat.

Obviously, I try to research everything as well as I can, and have yet to feel like I've ever been "ripped off". A creator having a hard time is one thing, but misrepresenting things is another, as these terms state. So, out and out scams still are outside the terms from what I can see (of course, a good scammer will make it look like they've made a good effort to complete the project, and thus live up to the terms).

There are some good stories that come out of events like this- the Doom that came to Atlantic City board game campaign, which turned out to basically be a scam, was picked up by the original creators or somesuch, and delivered from what I can tell! I saw a copy in the FLGS the other day, which was awesome

**Manfred von Drakken**

Ahtman wrote:
It is almost like you are investing in a project now and not just pre-ordering through a store. I guess this means people will have to do their due diligence to avoid losing their investment.

I thought that was the actual point of Kickstarter from Day 1. Sure, many projects are basically pre-orders, but I always thought people were investing in a project and rather than a financial return were getting some sort of product or service.

I just wanna know what's gonna happen to the $10,000+ from the potato salad guy.