Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So scrap the other thread this is from WK themselves

(http://wizkidsgames.com/blog/2014/10/24/star-trek-attack-wing-updated-suggested-tournament-format/)

Sounds nice and a good practical way to shake things up.

Definitely a good move. Stops the silly Fednaught builds I've been seeing lately aswell as the horrible Borg build I ran at our last OP.

This is not good at all, this also completely invalidates other big ships, likely the Scimitar come the 5th, The 4th division cruiser and the 5 division battleship, Enterprise E, D, Voyager, Negh Var got worse, I know we're not gonna adopt these rules, they're just plain stupid and they pander to the complainers...

I finally built a ship that can stand up to the dumb broken crap I encounter monthly, and they go and make rules that make it unplayable... Screw that.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
This is not good at all, this also completely invalidates other big ships, likely the Scimitar come the 5th, The 4th division cruiser and the 5 division battleship, Enterprise E, D, Voyager, Negh Var got worse, I know we're nna adopt these rules, they're just plain stupid and they pander to the complainers...

I finally built a ship that can stand up to the dumb broken crap I encounter monthly, and they go and make rules that make it unplayable... Screw that.

I think this is a good move on WK part. No ship or faction has been made unplayable, but the super ships have been toned down. Doube borg spheres will still be very good, as will Voyager/Enterprise E builds.

What is great is that swarm builds might have a decent shot now. A borg sphere should be able to handel a swarm, but the won't dominate. The prospect of facing 4 Bajoran interceptors w/phaser strike plus a blind ship is something to think about where before it was almost laughable. A loaded borg ship with double armour or even borg shield matrix and feedback pules would not even take notice.

We all say that more options is a better thing, this format makes all of the ships an option for OP play without banning anything. So yea you can have your Picard Sphere but not much else. Yes you can have Weyoun Verel, but on a much smaller ship.

The biggest winners here are the mid range ships. The Defiant, K'Tinga, Breen cruiser,. My mind is racing over Fleet Captain Thot Gor and 3 point Energy Dissipators that might actually have a shot.

I actually used Negvars through most of the Dominion War and never had one above 50. Klingons will do better with this they work better in numbers. Romulans will do well because their biggest peoblem as of late was getting through shields and armour on the super ships.

I think after we have all played this way a few times we will realize that this is actually creating options instead of limiting them.

I've been playing about with a few builds.

I found that almost all of my Jem Harar Battle Cruiser builds end up coming to 49 points.

Voyager is still a viable/nasty ship if you take Captain Spock, Chekov, TOS Sulu and one of transphasics/Flagship/Ablative. It forces some tough choices but each of the choices put voyager towards a certain flavour and that's no bad thing.

Only thing I owned I sort of struggled with is the Battleship, but that suits bigger games more in any case.

Made a couple of tests with the Sovereign/ Enterprise-E, it actually works there too I think. You sort of have to decide whether you're going all crew-ey, all weapon-ey or a mix of both to less effect. Its not a case of being able to have your cake and eat it anymore.

Mind you I'm not trying to "break" things just see if they're viable.

I worked for a month on this build and now it's just been gutted!

Ent E
Picard (extra crew from Ent E)
Indep Crew Fleet Captain
Fire at Will
Cheat Death
Tuvok
Mr Spock
Phlox
William Riker (extra crew)
Pavel Chekov (Refit)
Montgomery Scott (Tinyprise)
Tactical Stations
Dorsal Phaser array
Photon Torpedoes (saber class)
High Energy Sensor Sweep.

8-12 attacks per turn depending on what I use actionwise.

Cautiously - and I say this as an exclusively dominion player - I'm optimistic, if no other reason because it means that WK are seeing that there's an issue to be addressed.

All my borg upgrades better receive a massive point reduction or else I want a refund on the $100+ I spent on all of it. I'm talking 2PT BAHAs, 3 point feedback pulse.

I suspect this is also an attempt to curb the Borg by the backdoor.

That fleet you posted Plaguelord is part of the problem. This is supposed to be a fleet game but it has become a contest of Borg Cube v Voyager.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
All my borg upgrades better receive a massive point reduction or else I want a refund on the $100+ I spent on all of it. I'm talking 2PT BAHAs, 3 point feedback pulse.

That is precisely the point of these new rules. They are ment to be more challenging so you can't have your cake and eat it too. You will have to choose between them.

I am vaguely concerned as to how it's going to work with points reducers and increases. Feels like a faq waiting to happen.

 inmygravenimage wrote:
I am vaguely concerned as to how it's going to work with points reducers and increases. Feels like a faq waiting to happen.

"50 Points maximum per ship (at the start of the game) including all upgrades, captains, admirals, and resources assigned to the ship. During game play, it might be possible that you will exceed 50 points through game effects that let you steal or add upgrades to your ship."

You have to factor in all that in. After squad building each ship cannot be more that 50 pts, and the 43 plus ships can only have 8 pts of ugrades. That is why the faction penalty will be so much more important and why the weyoun/verel cubes and spheres wont work any more.

While it's a bit of a bummer, as Faction Pure Fednaught builds were very flavorful to how the titular ships operated on the various Trek television shows, it's a good change and a step in the right direction.

Excuse me? But when there are upgrades for ships (and these upgrades come with the ships mind you) cost enough to push the total of the ship above 50 (sphere starts at 42, right?) Meaning the Sphere can't take a non-generic captain and Feedback pulse, and it can't even take Borg Ablative Hull Armor, a card IT COMES WITH...

See the problem?

A generic sphere starts at 38 with the named starting at 40. So you can take either a feedback pulse or some ablative armour.

Spacedock says there's some 2 point borg captains in the game as well.

Plaguelord you're throwing your toys out of the pram. Borg Sphere 4270 (40) + Drone (0) + Borg Ablative Hull Armour (10) = 50
Borg Sphere (38) + Third of Five (2) + Borg Ablative Hull Armour (10) = 50

Besides looking at the blind buys for RIF, it isn't possible to equip the Tal'Kir with almost anything from its pack within the 30 point limit. It's about choices, not taking everything you like and winning by default

I think we're going to see a lot more of the otherwise disregarded captains seeing play - Luaran jumps to mind. Of course, Sakonna is now even more crazy than ever.

 SkaerKrow wrote:
While it's a bit of a bummer, as Faction Pure Fednaught builds were very flavorful to how the titular ships operated on the various Trek television shows, it's a good change and a step in the right direction.

For those who like crew heavy Fed ships Christopher Pike should become a lot more popular. Pike plus independent fleet captain is -2 points on all of yyour crew. That is why I think these rules are a good step, because now every point matters. I think since I started last year I have only seen Pike used twice and one time I was running him. Mind you that is 3-4 OPs a month since the beginning. Now he is a real contender for fed fleets.

Winners of this decison are klingons with there good mid range ships. losers I feel are dominion and romulans ,dominon due to there large number of high point ships and lackluster smaller ships. Romulans due to them having no mid range ships and fairly rubbish cheaper ships.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Excuse me? But when there are upgrades for ships (and these upgrades come with the ships mind you) cost enough to push the total of the ship above 50 (sphere starts at 42, right?) Meaning the Sphere can't take a non-generic captain and Feedback pulse, and it can't even take Borg Ablative Hull Armor, a card IT COMES WITH...

See the problem?

It's Borg, so I see no problem at all.

If Wiskids came out with a FAQ tomorrow banning all Borg from game play, said "we're sorry, it was a mistake to make the Borg", and never made another Borg ship, I'd be happy.

Over 50 other ships in the game, with over 300 different cards in the game, and all you ever, EVER see is a Borg Sphere or Borg Cube with Picard and add 1-2 other upgrades (Wayoun and Varrel). The Borg didn't "change the meta", they broke this game.

All I'm hearing is "I don't get to play with my under cost, most maneuverable ship, 360 firing arc, and highest base attack value in the game all before upgrades" No sympathy for the Borg or Borg players.

so lol my posts got deleted, that's fine. But while this seems ok to some, this really has the potential to turn quite a few people away from my play group. All they had were borg, because that was who they enjoyed in the show, and to make borg nigh useless outside of running 2 scout ships? That isn't fair to someone in any way IMO. Sure borg were rough, but I alway hated seeing conditional surrender stuff over borg, unprepared borg can be dealt with, albeit hard. Surrender builds / varel stuff? That was the problem with this game to me, too much attack cancel

There is a valid concern about lack of robust playtesting, to be fair.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Excuse me? But when there are upgrades for ships (and these upgrades come with the ships mind you) cost enough to push the total of the ship above 50 (sphere starts at 42, right?) Meaning the Sphere can't take a non-generic captain and Feedback pulse, and it can't even take Borg Ablative Hull Armor, a card IT COMES WITH...

See the problem?

It's Borg, so I see no problem at all.

If Wiskids came out with a FAQ tomorrow banning all Borg from game play, said "we're sorry, it was a mistake to make the Borg", and never made another Borg ship, I'd be happy.

Over 50 other ships in the game, with over 300 different cards in the game, and all you ever, EVER see is a Borg Sphere or Borg Cube with Picard and add 1-2 other upgrades (Wayoun and Varrel). The Borg didn't "change the meta", they broke this game.

All I'm hearing is "I don't get to play with my under cost, most maneuverable ship, 360 firing arc, and highest base attack value in the game all before upgrades" No sympathy for the Borg or Borg players.

Since you have no problem with Borg becoming useless for Tournament Play, how about YOU refund me my $115 I paid for all my borg stuff? BTW, if you hated seeing Picard and stuff on the sphere, Maybe your venue should've initiated a Faction pure ruleset? You can only mix factions is everyone is okay with it. If you brought up your concerns logically, you probably would've been able to push Faction pure at your store... But instead, you cried and complained until WK decided that it was time to make people who paid good money for their product pay even more by not being able to use that product at tournaments competitively... Seriously, there's nothing wrong with Faction pure dreadnought builds... And I think it's funny, the solution to Weyoun/Varel is actually coming out in the RIF grand prize, Borg Faction Data, go look it up. It solves the problem nicely, should've been a retail release... But no, complainers gonna complain.

-PlaquelordHobbtservices

Aren't these your words from August 24th in the old tactics and battle reports thread?

"Well, I'm attempting to get Borg BANNED at our OP events, and the only way they'll listen to me, is to abuse their brokenness myself. 

I need help for a borg build for Collective OP2. Ideally, would like to run a Tac Cube, but Double sphere would work too. "


So the Borg were broken and needed to be banned? But now that you use them they are OK and everyone is over reacting
I think you may be over reacting a bit.

I'm also impressed by the concept that Tamwulf is singlehandedly responsible for the new fleet rules from Wizkids.

In any case, and more on topic, I'm still actually quite impressed at the 50 point builds I'm able to make for some of my ships.

I worked out another quite awesome one for the Enterprise-E at 49 points. Jean-Luc Picard, Quantum Torpedoes, Lojur, Beverly Crusher.

A nice torpedo boat but it's a build where, what it does, is act as a torpedo boat. All well and good. It's got a role and isn't all things to all (wo)men

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Excuse me? But when there are upgrades for ships (and these upgrades come with the ships mind you) cost enough to push the total of the ship above 50 (sphere starts at 42, right?) Meaning the Sphere can't take a non-generic captain and Feedback pulse, and it can't even take Borg Ablative Hull Armor, a card IT COMES WITH...

See the problem?

It's Borg, so I see no problem at all.

If Wiskids came out with a FAQ tomorrow banning all Borg from game play, said "we're sorry, it was a mistake to make the Borg", and never made another Borg ship, I'd be happy.

Over 50 other ships in the game, with over 300 different cards in the game, and all you ever, EVER see is a Borg Sphere or Borg Cube with Picard and add 1-2 other upgrades (Wayoun and Varrel). The Borg didn't "change the meta", they broke this game.

All I'm hearing is "I don't get to play with my under cost, most maneuverable ship, 360 firing arc, and highest base attack value in the game all before upgrades" No sympathy for the Borg or Borg players.

Since you have no problem with Borg becoming useless for Tournament Play, how about YOU refund me my $115 I paid for all my borg stuff? BTW, if you hated seeing Picard and stuff on the sphere, Maybe your venue should've initiated a Faction pure ruleset? You can only mix factions is everyone is okay with it. If you brought up your concerns logically, you probably would've been able to push Faction pure at your store... But instead, you cried and complained until WK decided that it was time to make people who paid good money for their product pay even more by not being able to use that product at tournaments competitively... Seriously, there's nothing wrong with Faction pure dreadnought builds... And I think it's funny, the solution to Weyoun/Varel is actually coming out in the RIF grand prize, Borg Faction Data, go look it up. It solves the problem nicely, should've been a retail release... But no, complainers gonna complain.

Hmmm. How about YOU refund ME my (estimated) $500 in non-Borg stuff (30+ ships, and e-Bay purchases), and while we are at it, you can refund all my OP entrance fees too? I've stood on my soapbox and preached the evilness of the Borg since they came out, and yet I was shouted down by my group who at first, didn't see any issues. I argued for banning the Borg, yet the best we got was ship pure. Now, that's ship pure in MY play group, NOT the other two groups I play with that, you guessed it, play Borg. Last night was a perfect example of why this tournament stuff needs to be implemented. One of the local stores played RiF OP1, nine players. Four were Borg- two players with two Spheres and the exact same upgrades, and funny enough, they both got the Scout cube as the blind draw. One player had a Cube Dreadnaught build and his blind ship (I have no idea what it did as he destroyed my entire fleet in three turns thanks to Borg Mines and Cloaked Mines). The last guy had a Sphere and Octa. Top four? All Borg. I have consistently seen this in event, after event, after event.

In a ship pure or faction pure venue, the Borg are barely manageable IF you bring the right fleet to deal with them, IF the dice treat you well, IF you make no mistakes, and IF the Borg player makes mistakes... too many IFs. I'm tired of losing all the time to the over powered Borg. Ya know what the guys say to me at the LGS? "You should play Borg if you don't like to lose all the time". It's a point of pride for me now- I will never play a Borg Sphere, Cube, Octagon, Dodecahedron, or any other geometric shaped Borg ship.

Ya know what's killing this game? The Borg and seeming lack of concern by Wizkids and the Borg players. WHEN this game fails, it'll be because of all the Borg players who have no issue at all with their under cost, most maneuverable in the game, and highest attack dice ships when the other factions have no answer for it at all. When you look around and all you see are Borg ships at your LGS... that's when you'll know the game is done.

It would seem Wizkids doesn't want STAW to die just yet... and this new tournament format is a step in the right direction.

Gonna point out 1 more thing lol : these are just "suggested" nobody has to follow them as law, and if enough people threaten to quit, over spending money on ships, i sure other things might happen lol.
But at my venue, im not gonna be following these rules, because some of my guys cant afford to buy whole new fleets, and it isnt fair to ban their ships because of a few crybabys that exsist like on this site lol,

Having fun? over-rated, doesnt happen
Hardcore try hards in a not extremely well known tabletop? thats how everybody rolls

STAW is super serious buisness

Vakruz wrote:
Gonna point out 1 more thing lol : these are just "suggested" nobody has to follow them as law, and if enough people threaten to quit, over spending money on ships, i sure other things might happen lol.
But at my venue, im not gonna be following these rules, because some of my guys cant afford to buy whole new fleets, and it isnt fair to ban their ships because of a few crybabys that exsist like on this site lol,

Having fun? over-rated, doesnt happen
Hardcore try hards in a not extremely well known tabletop? thats how everybody rolls

STAW is super serious buisness

When a game company puts out "suggested" play rules, they might as well be set in stone. There will be far more people that follow the suggestion then don't.

It always amazes me how serious people get about their little toy soldiers...

 Tamwulf wrote:

Vakruz wrote:
Gonna point out 1 more thing lol : these are just "suggested" nobody has to follow them as law, and if enough people threaten to quit, over spending money on ships, i sure other things might happen lol.
But at my venue, im not gonna be following these rules, because some of my guys cant afford to buy whole new fleets, and it isnt fair to ban their ships because of a few crybabys that exsist like on this site lol,

Having fun? over-rated, doesnt happen
Hardcore try hards in a not extremely well known tabletop? thats how everybody rolls

STAW is super serious buisness

When a game company puts out "suggested" play rules, they might as well be set in stone. There will be far more people that follow the suggestion then don't.

It always amazes me how serious people get about their little toy soldiers...

Just don't feed the troll. 3 posts and they only criticize/insult otheres for their opinion. Don't feed the troll.