Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all. I've come seeking your advice on something that has been bothering me for a while. So I'm looking to transition from quite good (IMO) table top painting to entry level competition painting. Assembly, basing, priming, shading and layering I'm comfortable with. I've got a good selection of decent quality brushes which I care for well including my W&N series 7 00. I use well shaken GW paints in clean water (mixed with a little washing up liquid) and thin them well. But try as I might I'm really struggling with edge highlighting. My brush control and source lighting whilst not perfect are constantly improving but the issue seems to be getting the paint onto the mini. The paint doesn't seem to want to transfer from the brush leaving tiny chalky beads and sometimes clumping. When I'm doing my edge highlights I'm using my 00 and realise that the paint is drying quicker so I mix my paint 1:1 with Vallejo retarder and thin until milky. I also wash my brush frequently every couple of minutes to prevent premature dying. When the paint does go on I found that the thinness has stretched the pigment to the point where several (upwards of 6) coats are required, often leaving thick, uneven and plain ugly highlights.

How much would flow improver help? The information I'm reading tends to be aimed more towards wet blenders and acrylic painters.

Or am I doing something else seriously wrong?

Thanks in advance guys.

The flow aid that I have is Liquitex Flo-Aid, diluted 20:1 with water (per the instructions), which works very well. However, 95% of the time, I just use water. I don't think either I or anyone else could see the difference in the finished product, even with a magnifying glass, unless it's a large flat section of one of the tough-to-paint colors like white or pallid wych. It does make the paint dry much more bump-less. One issue is that Flo-Aid makes paints bleed like crazy on a wet palette overnight -- a small amount of paint will damn well bleed over the whole thing in a few hours. Which leads to...

If you don't use one, I suggest a wet palette. One problem with diluting paint is that as you use them, they dry out, so your perfectly diluted Fire Dragon Bright turns crusty 15 minutes later. I think this is ESPECIALLY true if you paint with a lot of interruptions (that's me! ). You can't just add water, because water isn't the same as medium; as you replace water with medium, the paint will dry less evenly and leave drying marks.

On the brush --

W&N S7 00 is also my edge highlight choice (actually, I think Tamiya Pro 000 is better, but the damn thing is silly expensive, so I never want to use it lol). It has a large belly and a very nice point for a fine detail brush, and it holds tons of paint, so you shouldn't have drying problems -- unlike, for example, the micro Army Painter brush, a Raphael 6/0, or any number of no-name micro-sized brushes. I guess what I'm saying is, you shouldn't have to use exotic drying retarders to keep the paint wet on the brush.

I was having the same issue with straight Vallejo Game series paint. As soon as I do a 1:1 mix with acrylic drying retarder it flows and works perfectly so that's my trick. Probably others have better ideas, I haven't been painting for too long!

A surfactant will help the paint leave the brush and settle on the model evenly, but chalkiness is generally due to pigment clumping together after dropping out of suspension (due to over-thinning). As counter-intuitive as it may sound, you would likely get more even results using a somewhat thicker paint (still thinner than most come, out of the bottle, but not so thin that it behaves like plain water) and a larger brush (bigger belly holds more liquid paint, which makes it less prone to drying on the bristles).

You may also be able to help yourself by making sure to use only distilled water when you use water to thin paints. This way you remove all particulates from the water that may cause some of your issues. Also, I would use some Lahmian Medium (or similar medium) instead of just water and dish soap. You get better results when you use products made for the job instead of things you may just have on hand. I use both medium and water depending on the area to be painted and hte effect I'm going for. A little Flow Improver and Drying Retarder is also handy, but I would only put it in your paint as needed.

Another thing, are you doing most of your mixing on a palette or in the pot? I make sure to add a drop or two of Drying Retarder and a few squirts of water straight in the pot, but this is to slow down the every day drying. I add Water and Medium on the palette. Just some ideas!

Have you watched any of tutorials GW has on their youtube channel? I find these are an excellent way to learn some basic and semi-advanced methods for mixing and thinning paints (as well as painting in general). These videos are great for learning a lot of techniques that anyone, at any level of experience, can learn something from imo. Even if you aren't painting the particular model in the video, the techniques are great for any painting project.

For highlighting, have you tried using the side of your brush as opposed to the tip? This doesn't work on all areas obviously, but it's a great way to great nice lines on edges.

I use a little bit of vallejo glaze medium and a #2 flat brush for most of my edge highlighting.

As others have said, you may have better luck if you cut your paints with a matte medium instead of a thinner, and if your paints are still too thick, then you add a little water/thinner.

The medium still contains the ingredients in the paint that allows it to stick together and bond properly, while giving the paint extra transparency, so it doesnt appear unthinned.

It sounds like you need both a wet palette and a larger brush. If you are using a high quality brush (like the W&N) the point is just as small as a smaller brush. The benefit to the larger brush is that it holds more paint and doesn't dry out on the brush nearly as quickly.

Thanks for the input guys, really appreciated. I'd never stopped to consider the point on a bigger w&n would be just as good as the one on my small one. I've heard of people using distilled water but didn't know if it would make a noticeable difference to someone of lower ability.

 andywalker07 wrote:
Thanks for the input guys, really appreciated. I'd never stopped to consider the point on a bigger w&n would be just as good as the one on my small one. I've heard of people using distilled water but didn't know if it would make a noticeable difference to someone of lower ability.

The point on a 1, 2 or 3 of a W&N S7 is very fine, but it's not a good brush for edge highlighting, in my experience. Keep in mind that there are two ways to do edge highlighting: with the point and with the edge.

First, the point: if you use the tip of the brush, on a large brush, and you press ever so slightly too hard, you make a mess (or at least a fat line). Second, the bristles will spread out as you use them, so your point will need to be re-tipped after every little bit (as much as if you used say a 0 or 00). That's not a problem, but that obviates any advantages of holding more paint in the belly.

Then, the edge: Here, having more paint in the belly (or a bigger belly) is a big problem, because you lose control. Basically, if you are painting with the edge of the brush, you want hardly any paint on your brush, or you'll leave too much on the miniature.

Finally, with any technique, on surfaces that aren't easy to reach, a big belly is a problem, because the last thing you want to do is touch surfaces unintentionally with the brush.

Of course, I'm referring to 28mm miniatures, not larger vehicles or models, where other tools are a superior.

I'd say like Todosi. Try using a bigger brush. Your paint won't dry as fast as on a tiny one, this may help.
This may also not help at all. It's more a matter of personnal tastes than absolute truth here.

Personnally I paint all my models using size 4, 2 and 1 brushes. Yes, you read right. I don't use 0, 00 or smaller brushes 'cause I don't like using them and I'm more comfortable using a size 4 brush with a fine tip. Some of my friends do the same... but some are unable to paint details with a size 4 brush.


So have a try, and see what suits you the best.

Just thin paint very sparingly with water, and apply carefully.. Laterally touching the edges. No problems

Just to clarify I do use the edge of the brush for angles and edges. The problem I'm having is using the tip to paint thin lines such as those present in SM armour.

Try using a water-soluble coloured pencil instead.

Can't say I've ever had a problem edge highlighting with a bit of drying retarder mixed in and using a 1 or 2 brush.

Smaller brushes are mostly unnecessary because the tips on the larger brushes are just as good and the larger reservoir stops paint drying so quickly.

Tried thining less and using a bigger brush and for the most part seemed to transfer the paint more smoothly but I lack a larger brush with a good tip so I'm going to have to get a new w&n either size 1 or 2

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Can't say I've ever had a problem edge highlighting with a bit of drying retarder mixed in and using a 1 or 2 brush.

Smaller brushes are mostly unnecessary because the tips on the larger brushes are just as good and the larger reservoir stops paint drying so quickly.

I highlighted a couple of examples to demonstrate what I mean. The pic below is the full image, which shows it in context.

In the shin pad, which is very common when a model is leaning forward or running, the bottom edge is just too close to catch with a large brush, without also painting the foot, or even more of the shin than desired. In the second image, adding a blended highlight to make the silver coil pop forward, I want to be very careful not to get silver on any other part of the model (since mistakes are harder to cover up without adding volume). In the third example, a very common shoulder pad, the edge is quite close to the torso. If I want to use the edge of the brush to highlight (much easier), I must use a brush that has a belly smaller than the gap.





Now, I could probably use a size 1 for some of it, and if I drove myself nuts, a size 2, but keep in mind that I blow through the edge highlighting... the Fire Dragon Bright for this whole model is maybe a 1 hour process. The last thing I want to do is switch brushes (or, do corrections) in between.

I guess it also depends on how thick your edge highlight is. The fatter your highlight, the easier it is to do with a bigger brush, obviously Personally, I like mine to be ultra-thin, so that it looks less like paint, but that's totally just preference.

So this is my WIP rhino and whilst the shading has come out OK I'm still really unhappy. I went out and bought a w&n cotman size 2 round and although the paint transfers nicely the tip is nowhere near fine enough. I'm still getting thick blothcy gloopy lines. I'm going to bite the bullet and buy a series 7 along with some flow enhancer maybe thatll do the trick.

I'm really starting to hate looking at this emporers children pink.

Although it's not finished would be interested to see what you guys think of the rhino

Cool!

I see what you mean. A size 2 S7 won't be much different than a BRAND NEW size 2 Cottman, by the way. The S7 will hold more paint, and over time keep a better point. But, for edge highlighting, a NEW Cottman won't be significantly worse (I have a bunch of them blue W&N's so I speak from experience). The biggest problem with W&N Cottman brushes is that they will kink after some use, effectively making them useless.

If I may make an observation: when I see your blow-ups, it looks pretty clear that you are highlighting with the point of the brush. Now, this is a very important technique to learn, because sometimes you have no choice. For example, on my terminator example, the bottom of the shin pad at that tight angle can only be painted with a tip.

However, in cases where you have a hard angle, like the 90 degree top edge of a vehicle, it is MUCH easier to get a fine, straight line by freeing the edge of the brush against the corner. The amount of paint and how hard you press determine the thickness od the highlight, which, by the way, will highlight TWO edges, evenly, if you hold the brush at 45 degrees. This is a huge benefit because if you point highlight one edge only, you see no highlight from the wrong angle and the model looks funny.

When edge highlighting, start with only a little paint on a brush. It should NOT be runny -- you can thin the paint, bu not to the point where it will run and pool. I suggest a size 0, or at most size 1 for your vehicle. Having a fat belly hurts this technique because too much paint can cause it to make a mess.

Where you must use a point, use a smaller brush. I can tell you right now that your issue with the size 2 is that although the point is sharp, you are pressing hard enough that it flattens and widens. With much practice, and a feather touch, you can avoid this and still use a big brush, but any time you press too hard, your line will fatten.

When you use a smaller brush, it is a little more forgiving because the fattest line you can draw is not that different from the thinnest.

It's coming along. I erased some of the highlights and redid them. Then I added the gunner, some smoke to the exhausts age all that's left now is some more weathering and doors to be added.

It might sound crazy, but you can also try painting in the bath. All you need is a bath board -- run a nice hot bath and do some painting. It's very difficult for the paint to dry quickly in such a humid environment so it's a good place to do things like wet blending and details. A sauna would be even better, but obviously harder to come by.

Rhino looks pretty awesome to me

Great improvement. Looks very good now. Nice one.

I make enough mistakes at my desk I can only imagine the issues in the bath.

Taking a break from highlighting I just finished free handing the Gunnar redmoon sigil on the door