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Inspired by the magnificent model that GW has released for Smaug, I have decided to cobble together a half-serious set of rules for him in Fantasy.



Smaug the Magnificent




M_WS_BS__S__T___W__I___A___Ld
6__6___0__10_10__10__4___8___8


Troop Type: Independent Character (Monster)

Special Rules: Fly, Scaly Skin (2+), Thunderstomp, Killing Blow, Immense Target, In the Hearts of Men, I am Fire I am... Death, Invulnerable, Tiny Chink, Enemy of Dwarves

Immense Target: Smaug is a gigantic beast, hundreds of feet long. It is almost impossible for any semi-competent archer to miss such a target when on the ground. In addition to being unable to claim any cover bonuses (unless of course there is any terrain large enough to fully cover him), models shooting at Smaug gain a +2 bonus to their BS.

In the Hearts of Men: The emotions that Smaug evokes go beyond fear, beyond terror. To fight such a creature is to face an almost unbeatable foe, one that ignores every blow that strikes it and engulfs whole regiments in flame. This rule functions in the same manner as Terror, except that enemy units suffer -2 to their Leadership values for the purposes of any tests that they are required to make as a result.

I am Fire, I am.... Death: Smaug possesses a S5 Breath Weapon, but when he uses it, he may opt to fire it once or twice in a single shooting phase. He may also use it again every second turn from when it is first used. In addition, if used in Close Combat, 3D6 S5 hits are inflicted per Breath Weapon attack instead of the usual 2D6.

Invulnerable: Smaug’s scaly hide is almost impenetrable to any weapon, from axes to arrows. Only siege engines have even a chance of wounding him. Smaug’s scaly skin save is always 2+, and it can never be reduced by any means, particularly by the strength of a weapon.

Tiny Chink: There is but one weakness in Smaug’s crimson armour- a tiny chink, caused by a ballista bolt. There is a chance, if a slim one, that another bolt or blow could find this chink and mortally wound the monster. If any ranged or melee attack (discounting spells or template weapons) rolls a 6 to hit followed by a 6 to wound, Smaug receives no armour save against that individual wound.

Enemy of Dwarves: Dragons are the terror of Dwarves, and no dragon in this Age exemplifies this more than Smaug. As a result, all units from the Dwarf Army Book Hate him.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't have a points cost yet, as I couldn't begin to cost him.

Any model with a pet thrush gets the killing blow special rule against Smaug?

hahaha

Change: new rule, dwarves hate him. also, poisoned weapons have no special effect against him.

How does poisoned affect wounds?

An unmodifiable 1+ is a very, very, very, very bad idea.

+3 BS makes no difference, unless it's against elf bolt throwers.

This is a very bad ruleset, as it effectively makes him a model with all the strengths of monsters and none of the weaknesses.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
How does poisoned affect wounds?

An unmodifiable 1+ is a very, very, very, very bad idea.

of course! what was I thinking!
I'll make it unmodifiable 2+

+3 BS makes no difference, unless it's against elf bolt throwers.

This is a very bad ruleset, as it effectively makes him a model with all the strengths of monsters and none of the weaknesses.

hmmm.... that is true

indeed it is quite bad- he is an invincible dragon that has slaughtered a few armies and destroyed two cities, so i figured 'overpowered' should be his watchword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: gave him Thunderstomp (forgot it), and fixed a few errors that were the result of me forgetting what rules did. Got 40k and Fantasy mixed up a little haha.


In general, I think Smaug would be very tough on the field- traditional monster weaknesses like siege weapons and mass ranged are almost negated in effectiveness against him. To kill him, you will need to pump attack after attack at him, each with a high chance of failing. In return, he can terrify your units, charging and scaring away every single one at his leisure, and burning them to a crisp with his fire. However, he is but one dragon, versus an entire army. Magic is still effective against him, and he could still be mired in close combat and worn down by combat res, especially on the turns he doesn't have his fire.

Blackhoof wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
How does poisoned affect wounds?

An unmodifiable 1+ is a very, very, very, very bad idea.

of course! what was I thinking!
I'll make it unmodifiable 2+

+3 BS makes no difference, unless it's against elf bolt throwers.

This is a very bad ruleset, as it effectively makes him a model with all the strengths of monsters and none of the weaknesses.

hmmm.... that is true

indeed it is quite bad- he is an invincible dragon that has slaughtered a few armies and destroyed two cities, so i figured 'overpowered' should be his watchword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: gave him Thunderstomp (forgot it), and fixed a few errors that were the result of me forgetting what rules did. Got 40k and Fantasy mixed up a little haha.


In general, I think Smaug would be very tough on the field- traditional monster weaknesses like siege weapons and mass ranged are almost negated in effectiveness against him. To kill him, you will need to pump attack after attack at him, each with a high chance of failing. In return, he can terrify your units, charging and scaring away every single one at his leisure, and burning them to a crisp with his fire. However, he is but one dragon, versus an entire army. Magic is still effective against him, and he could still be mired in close combat and worn down by combat res, especially on the turns he doesn't have his fire.

It's still a bad rule set. There is a very good reason we don't have unmodifiable armour saves.

There's a difference between op and what you posted. The Destroyer is OP, and this is infinitely better than a destroyer. I'd consider an unmodifiable 1+ worth 1.5k points on that stat line. And he'd still be undercosted.

what about a 1+ that can only be reduced to a 4+?

doesn't archaon have something like that?

 Formosa wrote:
what about a 1+ that can only be reduced to a 4+?

doesn't archaon have something like that?

No. Then he'd still be retardedly powerful with no weaknesses. Archaons armour is modified as normal.

Allow me to reiterate; an unmodifiable/ un-negatable armour save is about as good as making cannons hit every model in a unit at S10 doing D6 wounds.

Well, even currently. 100 TK archers, + Khledia deployed 20 wide would have 70 shots at volley fire, 140 with smiting, hitting on 2's. They already need 6's to wound. so 122 hits rounding up, should net 21 wounds rounding up, without amour save.

 Acardia wrote:
Well, even currently. 100 TK archers, + Khledia deployed 20 wide would have 70 shots at volley fire, 140 with smiting, hitting on 2's. They already need 6's to wound. so 122 hits rounding up, should net 21 wounds rounding up, without amour save.

Only 6's to hit and wound negate armor. 200 shots is 5.5 no save wounds, with another 3.7 wounds that sneak past the 2+ save.
1 shooting phase, ~9 wounds inflicted (with smiting). With just a little luck, he dies in a single volley of 200 shots.
The trick is volume of fire. Every 36 shots is 1 wound with pretty much any shooting. If you get cheap enough shooting you can take him out, if not, you're totally boned.
Not really a good balance IMO.

You almost need a whole different mechanic for this type of monster.

Smaug, I'd like you to meet my good friend Karl Franz here....

 Krellnus wrote:
Smaug, I'd like you to meet my good friend Karl Franz here....

My good friend Tyrion would also love to meet this guy.

Nagash called, he asked to join in.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
what about a 1+ that can only be reduced to a 4+?

doesn't archaon have something like that?

No. Then he'd still be retardedly powerful with no weaknesses. Archaons armour is modified as normal.

Allow me to reiterate; an unmodifiable/ un-negatable armour save is about as good as making cannons hit every model in a unit at S10 doing D6 wounds.

checked and yes he DID have a save that worked that way, no idea on the new book however, he had a 1+ save that could not be reduced to below a 4+, but could be ignored by armour ignoring weapons.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Acardia wrote:
Well, even currently. 100 TK archers, + Khledia deployed 20 wide would have 70 shots at volley fire, 140 with smiting, hitting on 2's. They already need 6's to wound. so 122 hits rounding up, should net 21 wounds rounding up, without amour save.

Only 6's to hit and wound negate armor. 200 shots is 5.5 no save wounds, with another 3.7 wounds that sneak past the 2+ save.
1 shooting phase, ~9 wounds inflicted (with smiting). With just a little luck, he dies in a single volley of 200 shots.
The trick is volume of fire. Every 36 shots is 1 wound with pretty much any shooting. If you get cheap enough shooting you can take him out, if not, you're totally boned.
Not really a good balance IMO.

You almost need a whole different mechanic for this type of monster.

luckily there is only one of him, ey? hahaha


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although remember that there is only one of him, against an army.

You say 36 shots to get a wound, minimum, well how much shooting can an entire army put out over muiltiple turns? Sure he can fry a regiment and everyone runs away from him, but enough fire will bring him down.

I quite like it. Would be fun to run a scenario of, say, a 2,000 - 2,400 point army against Smaug.

I want this model so bad if it could be played in fantasy! (Not at how much it costs $$ wise tho lol)

As for the rules they look pretty legit. Cost him at 1300 points haha


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obviously I just made up a number for his points cost I wouldn't even know what would be a fair cost for him :p

 Krellnus wrote:
Nagash called, he asked to join in.

He wounds Smuag on 6's. Not invited.

With Heroic Killing Blow

Truth is, the only siege weapon that is used against smaug in the movies is that ballista in the beginning, andò on the long run it would have killed smaug. Imho, lower his S and T to 7, and give him a 1+ AS that can't be modified by NONMAGICAL attacks.
Killing Blow makes no sense on him - give me an example where he uses KB. Also, Smaug should have the Fireborn speciale rule (2+WS vs fire).

Man, ain't no siege weapon gonna kill Smaug. The only thing that killed Smaug was arrogance.

And a bird.

I am not sure how you could represent that in rules.

Here's how I'd do it:

RARE TROOP

Smaug ........................................... Roughly 550 pts

M___WS___BS___S___T___W___I___A___Ld
6_____6____0___7___7___6____2___6___8

Special Rules: Arrogant (Smaug can never benefit from the rules Hold the Line and Inspiring Presence), Breath Weapon (Str 5, Flaming; after Smaug has used his breath weapon, roll at the beginning of each of Smaug's player turn - on a result of 5+, Smaug can use his breath weapon again), Fly, Fireborn, Greedy (-3 to Ld to resist Stupidity tests caused by the Final Transmutation spell), Immune to Psychology, Large Target, Largest Of Monsters, Scaly Skin (1+, not modifiable or deniable by non magical attacks), Sworn Enemy (Dwarfs) (dwarfs hate Smaug), Terror, Thunderstomp.

Given the size of the model, he should probably also have 'Largest of Monsters'.

True.

Vetril wrote:
Here's how I'd do it:

RARE TROOP

Smaug ........................................... Roughly 550 pts

M___WS___BS___S___T___W___I___A___Ld
6_____6____0___7___7___6____2___6___8

Special Rules: Arrogant (Smaug can never benefit from the rules Hold the Line and Inspiring Presence), Breath Weapon (Str 5, Flaming; after Smaug has used his breath weapon, roll at the beginning of each of Smaug's player turn - on a result of 5+, Smaug can use his breath weapon again), Fly, Fireborn, Greedy (-3 to Ld to resist Stupidity tests caused by the Final Transmutation spell), Immune to Psychology, Large Target, Largest Of Monsters, Scaly Skin (1+, not modifiable or deniable by non magical attacks), Sworn Enemy (Dwarfs) (dwarfs hate Smaug), Terror, Thunderstomp.

Why not give him the Carmine Dragon Breath Weapon as well? 2D6 wounds that do D3 wounds apiece, or a cannon that wounds automatically doing D3 wounds to anything it touches?

Okay. So, the first thing you need to do is look at all the dragons. Including the Star Dragon and the Great Fire Dragon via Transformation of Kadaon.

So now we're looking at something around WS8 S8 T8...probably W10...

Also, his breath weapon should be usable every-other turn, tops. Though S5+ is obvious. Maybe D3 wounds.

He should not have any rules beyond Terror. He's big. He's tough. He's scary.
...but he is not a physical manifestation of evil, bloodshed, and hate. If Greater Daemons and the like don't have Super Terror, neither does Smaug.

Smaug's rules should be based on the actual literature, not the movie.
So: none of this war machine/Dwarf Windlance/"I'll shoot this ballista bolt off my son's shoulder" nonsense.
Smaug was killed by a REGULAR ARROW. Granted, it was a special arrow. But it was still your typical ~3ft. broadhead.

Maybe something like the Beastmen's special character...like, if you roll a six to hit him, and then a six to wound him, and he fails his scaly skin save, and you roll another 6, he's dead. Period. Boom. Done.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Why not give him the Carmine Dragon Breath Weapon as well? 2D6 wounds that do D3 wounds apiece, or a cannon that wounds automatically doing D3 wounds to anything it touches?

Why, I can think of a bunch of different ways to work around his main advantage, which is his 2+ AS vs non magical attacks.

I did look at the other dragons. I gave him a slightly nerfed star dragon profile, because I don't think Smaug is on par with a star dragon in melee combat: star dragons are some of the most ancient dragons of the warhammer world, and Smaug is nowhere as big or strong as the oldest dragons of Middle Earth, like Ancalagon.
Smaug's big deal is his fire breath and his impenetrable scales: typically, he flies around and burns everything for multiple times, then he lands and wraps it up by virtue of his size, trampling and slamming out of the way the survivors.
In the movies, that's how he destroys Dale, Lake Town, and how he tries to kill Thorin's group.
I think it's appropriate to let Smaug breathe fire more than once: that's his thing.
Furthermore, what's the best troop that the dragon faces? Some sword and board dwarven warriors, I think. He doesn't need to be uber to easily win against them; if you give him a crazy high profile, you put him on par with stuff like bloodthirsters. Personally, I think a bloodthirster would rip Smaug's head off and use it as a puppet.
I agree that S5 for his fire breath is appropriate - that means that if an average man gets caught in the flames, he's pretty much dead. Now, would his fire breath be able to kill an ogre? Maybe? That's debatable.
Imho a black arrow is a magical ballista bolt that deals d6 wounds. Roll a 6, Smaug dies in one shot.

The unmodifiable armour save is still ridiculous. Imagine it on a Carmine Dragon, which is nowhere near as good as the statline.

Or even on Malekith The Witch King.

Attack him with magic?

- wood elves enchanted arrows;
- daemon attacks;
- magic projectiles;
- initiative test save or die spells;
- warpstone weapons;
- magic weapons;
- runic artillery;
- multiple plague of rust;
- enchanted blades spell;
- ethereal units;
- undead screams;
- win combat and break his Ld 8;
- ...

Yeah, if you expect to point 8 ballistas at him and simply win, you'll end up being disappointed.

BTW, Malekith has something better.

Vetril wrote:
I did look at the other dragons. I gave him a slightly nerfed star dragon profile, because I don't think Smaug is on par with a star dragon in melee combat: star dragons are some of the most ancient dragons of the warhammer world, and Smaug is nowhere as big or strong as the oldest dragons of Middle Earth, like Ancalagon.
Smaug's big deal is his fire breath and his impenetrable scales: typically, he flies around and burns everything for multiple times, then he lands and wraps it up by virtue of his size, trampling and slamming out of the way the survivors.
In the movies, that's how he destroys Dale, Lake Town, and how he tries to kill Thorin's group.
I think it's appropriate to let Smaug breathe fire more than once: that's his thing.
Furthermore, what's the best troop that the dragon faces? Some sword and board dwarven warriors, I think. He doesn't need to be uber to easily win against them; if you give him a crazy high profile, you put him on par with stuff like bloodthirsters. Personally, I think a bloodthirster would rip Smaug's head off and use it as a puppet.
I agree that S5 for his fire breath is appropriate - that means that if an average man gets caught in the flames, he's pretty much dead. Now, would his fire breath be able to kill an ogre? Maybe? That's debatable.
Imho a black arrow is a magical ballista bolt that deals d6 wounds. Roll a 6, Smaug dies in one shot.

Whether or not Smaug can bench press as much as a Blood Thirster is irrelevant.
Consider: Smaug is essentially the second scariest thing in Middle Earth. And the only guy who beats him is Sauron, who is a god.

Star Dragons are the oldest and mightiest dragons in the Old World...that are still alive/awake. Smaug is right up there with him.

The issue with comparing a lot of these big monsters is how vague and representative some of the models are. I mean, look at the Shaggoth. He's got teeny-tiny little Ungor in his hair, but the model itself is maybe 6 times bigger than a normal Gor. If they made the Shaggoth as good as they are described to be, they'd be S8 T7 W20 Monsters with a 4D6 Thunderstop and a 3ft.-tall model.

...and the Black Arrow is an arrow. Shot from a normal bow. That's a fact. They changed it in the movie, of course, but...something just seems wrong with building the rules off the movies over the actual literature.
Really, I guess I'd have to say that, if you want to field Smaug, play the LOTR system.