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If the kff is OUTSIDE the transport and a battlewagon with embarked units are in range of the KFF do the units inside get the save?

Have nid player using template weapons and still rolls a d6 to hit units inside is this right?

From what I understand KFF is an area of effect invul save...so I would say yes....

Deeber wrote:
If the kff is OUTSIDE the transport and a battlewagon with embarked units are in range of the KFF do the units inside get the save?

Have nid player using template weapons and still rolls a d6 to hit units inside is this right?

This is interesting...I've never had this issue come up because not many players in my area use Flame weapons (Teardrop templates) to try to damage the Boyz inside my Wagons. They usually just blow up the Wagon. The wording on KFF says any model within 6" would get the 5+ Invul, but does the rule recognize the units inside the wagon, as they aren't actually...well...ON the field yet? The Wagon gets the save because the Wagon is in fact within 6"...the Boyz inside aren't technically on the field and therefore aren't within 6".

Rules as intended? I'd assume the Boyz inside would get the save.

Rules as written? I have no idea. I'd lean on no?

Melevolence wrote:

Deeber wrote:


This is interesting...I've never had this issue come up because not many players in my area use Flame weapons (Teardrop templates) to try to damage the Boyz inside my Wagons. They usually just blow up the Wagon. The wording on KFF says any model within 6" would get the 5+ Invul, but does the rule recognize the units inside the wagon, as they aren't actually...well...ON the field yet? The Wagon gets the save because the Wagon is in fact within 6"...the Boyz inside aren't technically on the field and therefore aren't within 6".

Rules as intended? I'd assume the Boyz inside would get the save.

Rules as written? I have no idea. I'd lean on no?

if the boyz aren't on the field how can they be targeted in the first place? (not trying to argue just trying to figure this out)

Deeber wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

Deeber wrote:


This is interesting...I've never had this issue come up because not many players in my area use Flame weapons (Teardrop templates) to try to damage the Boyz inside my Wagons. They usually just blow up the Wagon. The wording on KFF says any model within 6" would get the 5+ Invul, but does the rule recognize the units inside the wagon, as they aren't actually...well...ON the field yet? The Wagon gets the save because the Wagon is in fact within 6"...the Boyz inside aren't technically on the field and therefore aren't within 6".

Rules as intended? I'd assume the Boyz inside would get the save.

Rules as written? I have no idea. I'd lean on no?

if the boyz aren't on the field how can they be targeted in the first place? (not trying to argue just trying to figure this out)

Because of the rules for flamers and open topped vehicles. You aren't targeting the boys, but the wagon (If I'm not mistaken). The rules have changed where models embarked can be wounded by the flamers. Flamer rules permit the hits to embarked units, but I don't think KFF permits saves to the units within unless embarked too? I dunno.

KFF is all models within 6 inches get an invo save from shooting. If the models were physically placed on the transport then do they get the save?

Deeber wrote:
KFF is all models within 6 inches get an invo save from shooting. If the models were physically placed on the transport then do they get the save?

You can't set the models ON the transport. Thats not how the game works. That's not how 'embarking' works. I think it used too for old old old rules for the Battle Wagon, but not any longer.

People put a/the model(s) embarked inside on the vehicle as a reminder what is inside, it has as much rules interactions as someone putting a die on top of the vehicle to remind them how many Hull Points it has.

There is another thread about putting models on top of vehicles and why it doesn't work.

If you are required to measure distance to an embarked unit (for example, to see whether they are within 6" of the KFF model), then you measure to the hull of the transport vehicle instead. Rulebook, page 80, Embarking and Disembarking - Embarking.

if the group are playing with believe the rule for how to measure to/from models that are embarked is permission to do so then models embarked in a BW would be protected by a KFF. [ITC and BAO rule this way..] This would give you saves versus no escape wounds, as no escape does not have ignores cover, or any of the special rules of the weapon itself, just d6 hits at weapon str and weapon ap.

blaktoof wrote:
if the group are playing with believe the rule for how to measure to/from models that are embarked is permission to do so then models embarked in a BW would be protected by a KFF. [ITC and BAO rule this way..] This would give you saves versus no escape wounds, as no escape does not have ignores cover, or any of the special rules of the weapon itself, just d6 hits at weapon str and weapon ap.

The KFF is an invulnerable save nowadays, not a cover save

The models are on the board for purposes of targetting, if theyre in an open topped vehicle. They're "counts as" inside it. If they weren't then the flamer couldn't hit them. They get the invuln.

Even if models get an invul, which i'm not sure about, it works only against shooting attacks. Neither d6 flamer hits or explosion hits are shooting attacks. So, i'd say, it doesn't work on the guyz inside anywayz.

Flamers aren't shooting attacks? No Escape is certainly part of a shooting attack. You get the save as all models count as being in the same area as the hull RaW.

 Pyeatt wrote:
The models are on the board for purposes of targetting, if theyre in an open topped vehicle. They're "counts as" inside it. If they weren't then the flamer couldn't hit them. They get the invuln.

No, the models are not on the board for the purposes of targeting. They're only sufferings hits from the flamer because of a special permission for flamers to hit embarked units. They're not being targeted and they're still not on the field. Since they're not on the field I'd say the don't get an invul. save from KFF.

Otherwise we'd have to allow embarked units to get targeted or hit by psychic powers such as nova powers. As much as I'd LOVE for cleansing flame to hit embarked units, I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.

Since they're not on the field I'd say the don't get an invul. save from KFF. 

Why not? They are within 6" of the KFF so why wouldn't they get the benefit?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Since they're not on the field I'd say the don't get an invul. save from KFF. 

Why not? They are within 6" of the KFF so why wouldn't they get the benefit?

Are they? If they're not considered to be 'in play' then are they within 6" of the KFF? I would think it would require specific permission to give embarked units the benefit.

What says they are not in play? They are being transported. They can still shoot, assault , and be wounded/ affected. They can also fire overwatch if the vehicle is assaulted.

The wording is: when models are embarked remove it from the table and set aside, noting that it is being transported.

It goes on to say that if you need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull. I believe this would fall into that category. The KFF is within 6" of the battlewagon. So all embarked units are also within range.

Deeber wrote:
What says they are not in play? They are being transported. They can still shoot, assault , and be wounded/ affected.

They can't assault unless they disembark. They may only shoot from a firepoint, which is a specific permission dealing with embarked units. (Or in this case, the open-topped rule). They can not be targeted, or hit by blasts and nova powers.

So why is this one rule for KFF different from all of that?

You need a specific permission for rules to affect embarked units.

Zimko wrote:
You need a specific permission for rules to affect embarked units.

If you need need to measure to the unit, you do so from the hull of the vehicle.
There does exist a rule allowing us to see if they're in range of the KFF bubble.

 grendel083 wrote:

Zimko wrote:
You need a specific permission for rules to affect embarked units.

If you need need to measure to the unit, you do so from the hull of the vehicle.
There does exist a rule allowing us to see if they're in range of the KFF bubble.

Is that a rule specific to KFF or one in the BRB? If in the BRB then please point it out to me because I'd love for Cleansing flame to be able to kill Dire Avengers inside a Wave Serpent.

Zimko wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Zimko wrote:
You need a specific permission for rules to affect embarked units.

If you need need to measure to the unit, you do so from the hull of the vehicle.
There does exist a rule allowing us to see if they're in range of the KFF bubble.

Is that a rule specific to KFF or one in the BRB? If in the BRB then please point it out to me because I'd love for Cleansing flame to be able to kill Dire Avengers inside a Wave Serpent.

The rule has been brought up already in this thread. P80
Please review to see why cleansing flame will not apply.

"Is that a rule specific to KFF or one in the BRB? If in the BRB then please point it out to me because I'd love for Cleansing flame to be able to kill Dire Avengers inside a Wave Serpent."

BRB... dont have the page number with me but its in the section that talks about transports and subsection embarking

 grendel083 wrote:

Zimko wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Zimko wrote:
You need a specific permission for rules to affect embarked units.

If you need need to measure to the unit, you do so from the hull of the vehicle.
There does exist a rule allowing us to see if they're in range of the KFF bubble.

Is that a rule specific to KFF or one in the BRB? If in the BRB then please point it out to me because I'd love for Cleansing flame to be able to kill Dire Avengers inside a Wave Serpent.

The rule has been brought up already in this thread. P80
Please review to see why cleansing flame will not apply.

Ah so that's the rule blaktoof was referring to. Thanks for the page number. Well then I guess you would get 5+ saves for the KFF.

No problem

Annoyingly this seems to only apply if the Big Mek is outside the vehicle in question, not Embarked with the unit being cooked.

Correct whilst embarked the KFF has a different effect.

 grendel083 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
if the group are playing with believe the rule for how to measure to/from models that are embarked is permission to do so then models embarked in a BW would be protected by a KFF. [ITC and BAO rule this way..] This would give you saves versus no escape wounds, as no escape does not have ignores cover, or any of the special rules of the weapon itself, just d6 hits at weapon str and weapon ap.

The KFF is an invulnerable save nowadays, not a cover save

Shows how many times ive used that in 7th edition with my orks...lol, but yes you are correct.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Flamers aren't shooting attacks? No Escape is certainly part of a shooting attack. You get the save as all models count as being in the same area as the hull RaW.

Pretty sure it's not a shooting attack. Can you prove otherwise with quotes?

 koooaei wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Flamers aren't shooting attacks? No Escape is certainly part of a shooting attack. You get the save as all models count as being in the same area as the hull RaW.

Pretty sure it's not a shooting attack. Can you prove otherwise with quotes?

That's like saying the Arc from a Tesla shot isn't a shooting attack.

"No Escape" is special rule for template weapons, triggered when they make a shooting attack.
Resolved in the shooting sequence, when firing a weapon.

Soulblaze is a result of a shooting attack but is not a shooting attack itself, is it? So, here's an example of something being a result of a shooting attack while not being a shooting attack itself.