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Sorry, I know this is now the third army list I've asked for help with over this week. I'm trying to narrow down options for a new army this spring, and I've got it my theme figured out. Close combat marines. I know it's not super competitive, but I'm alright with that. That being said, my goal is fluffy with enough staying power that strong gameplay tactics will allow me to win against non - tourney lists, even if it's a struggle.

My first idea was Red Scorpions, then I went to Raven Guard (enticing, but too much focus on jump infantry I found). So I've come to the most badass Chapter of the imperium - Carcharodons

HQ
Tyberos
Librarian - ML 2, Force Axe

Command Squad - Bikes, Apothecary, 2 w/ Grav gun, Power fist, Storm Shield, 2 w/ Grav Guns Power Swords

Troops
1 x 5 Terminator Assault Squad (All LC as per Tyberos' requirement) - Land Raider Redeemer w/ Multi Melta
2 x 10 Man Tactical Squad - 9 extra ccw, Flamer, Serge has Power Sword, Drop Pod

FA
1 x 5 Assault Marines - 2 flamers, Drop pod
Storm Talon - Skyhammer missile launcher
1 x 3 Attack Bike Squadron - All multi melta

Heavy
1 x 7 Man Devestator Squad - 4 Lascannon, 2 with just bolters


General plan is to leave the razorbacks empty obviously, and drive them straight up the middle with the land raider to both provide extra firepower to pop things, and give a modicum of cover to the big beast. Turn 1 double drop pod comes down, drop them again in such a way that they block line of sight to my transport caravan. Use all my lascannon fire to either pop enemy transports for my red brethren to munch through with a turn 2 charge, or take out anything that needs the heavy firepower. Devestators are for softening up targets or wiping out medium to heavy infantry that my assaults can't reliably squash. Bike squad will run up the weakest flank to sweep across, pumping shots into their own assault targets to make them easy pickings for an early rage squad, followed by strength 5 HoW once Tyberos reaches....well anything really. That guy eats squads, and with 6 attacks on the charge with a chain fist, I can even charge land raiders and fully expect to rip them up. Stormtalon for the obligatory AA/ harassment duties. Librarian will likely just ride with the terminators and roll on biomancy. With 2 rolls, so long as I get either enfeeble, iron arm, or endurance, it'll be worth it.

So there it is. I know the Red Brethren aren't technically as efficient as a command squad might be, but they're fluffy, and they provide me with an objective secured Land Raider that I can park on top of an objective and beat up enemy tanks with. And everyone loves objective secured AV 14. Reasonable long range fire support from the devestators (which MAY get replaced by a predator executioner, the one with the 3 shot plasma cannon that doesn't get hot at all, or a tri las pred), air support, drop pods to block line of sight and dump units into the front lines on turn 1, and a solid flanking unit that can perform whatever duty I need it to. Thoughts? I'm open to most changes, just keep in mind I'm gonna have more fun with this list than expect to be tabling people with it.

Have you considered an Inquisitor ally with the Liber Heresius to give your LRC scout the first turn? You could also give him psychotroke grenades which are hilarious for around 60 points or so.

Other than that, I"d swap the dev weapons for lascannons, and cut down the assault marines to a 5-man squad with 2 flamers.

The command squad I'd dedicate to just grav guns since bikes make them relentless, and I'd probalby reserve them or they'll get blasted away turn 1 I think.. not sure.

Tyberos' terminator squad is awesome and the LRC being Objective Secured too is a huge deal IMO.

I like the Tac Squads in pods, although would go with a power sword on the sgt probably just because you dont' want that squad up against 2+ saves anyway... but YMMV.

I'm not sold on the razorbacks just being mobile platforms... they're not fast vehicles so they can't really move far/fast and still fire effectively... I'd just drop both of them for something better (maybe a TFC? although you do need some more anti-tank...)

Hope that helps a little.

I've used Carcharodons CT before. I'm just going to tell you now that using the Tactical Marines is a trap.
Now, Bikers are a different story. With how easy it can be to get Rage, you have an ability to mop up entire squads a turn thanks to Grav spam. I'd advise for a Biker Captain instead of the Librarian, and start using Bikers because, lets be honest, Tactical Marines just aren't worth it.

Onto Tyberos though, the Objective Secured isn't worth the lost durability for the Terminators. Go all Storm Shields and then Lightning Claws on the Sergeant as a challenge catcher since Tyberos would prefer murdering groups to just singular people. I always recommend the Spartan to transport things, but if you can't/won't use it, the Land Raider Redeemer will cover anti-horde okay.

Inquisitor ally would be a problem beacause Carcharodons are desperate alllies with all IoM forces. Beacuse they don't mide blowing up a planet full of allies to get thier target. And also because the scare the crap out of people. I think the OP took The Red Brethren because they fill the troops slot and fulfill his CAD requirements. If he gave them TH/SS he would be unbound, and he might not want that. I agree that the razorback should be replaced. Maybe get a pod for the tac squad, or a bike squad. TFC would be a nice chice as well. On the Dev squad, I also think you should go with lascannons or missles. To much of a chance of blowing up much needed heavy weapons. The only thing that may be a big problem is flyers, as you don't have a lot of defence against them. All that said, welcome to the feeding frenzy! Carcharodons are my favorite chapter and have a very cool theme.

Made some of the changes you've all recommended (thank you by the way). I dumped both razorbacks and half the assault squad. I carefully considered the idea of dropping the tacticals for bike squads as well, but I decided that if I wanted an assault bike heavy list, I'd play scars haha. I've got loads of experience using drop pods to block line of sight of my movement lanes with my salamander hybrid list, so I'm confident I can keep my ground units safe from any threatening fire.

I know the Red Brethren terminators aren't the most efficient terminator choice, but they're fluffy and I have no intention of disembarking them until they are well within charge range and will only have to deal with overwatch fire. Also, as mentioned earlier, Objective Secured Land Raiders are bitchin haha. Dump the terminators into the front ranks, send the redeemer off to forcibly remove objective campers and take it for my own. Librarian will still join the terminators, rolling on biomancy to buff and/or debuff as necessary

As far as the changes to the devestator squad, I switched to the lascannons for heavy anti tank. I also added 2 extra marines. The heavy weapons are expensive, and I don't want to lose efficiency the second they take a few shots.

I added the attack bike squadron to deal with any AV14 I might come up against, as well as provide some extra reliable dakka to take down small squads I can't charge for whatever reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not just AV14 I suppose. They can obviously handle any other vehicle I aim them at. They're just better at taking out 14 then lascannons are, and provide an entire extra high danger target for my opponent to have to figure out what to shoot at

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Inquisitor ally would be a problem beacause Carcharodons are desperate alllies with all IoM forces. Beacuse they don't mide blowing up a planet full of allies to get thier target. And also because the scare the crap out of people. I think the OP took The Red Brethren because they fill the troops slot and fulfill his CAD requirements. If he gave them TH/SS he would be unbound, and he might not want that. I agree that the razorback should be replaced. Maybe get a pod for the tac squad, or a bike squad. TFC would be a nice chice as well. On the Dev squad, I also think you should go with lascannons or missles. To much of a chance of blowing up much needed heavy weapons. The only thing that may be a big problem is flyers, as you don't have a lot of defence against them. All that said, welcome to the feeding frenzy! Carcharodons are my favorite chapter and have a very cool theme.

Except it isn't Unbound. He already has two Tactical Squads, so switching on over to Hammernators won't kill anything. I get they're fluffy, but in a 2000 point game you have to pay for survivability. 3++ is part of that.
Another thing to note is that the Attack Bikes will fulfill that niche of AT, but remember that, if they die, you lack mobile killing power of giant targets. That's why I'm HIGHLY suggestive of Biker troops, or at least the need to buy more Bikers. Not like Devastators are fluffy anyway; ditch them and the Assault Marine squad and pick up some bikers.

Yeah... sorry. Didn't notice that it was two squads of taqs. Still, why take Tyberos if you are leaving out The Red Brethren? That's like sucking the candy coating off of M&M's and spitting out the chocolate!

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Yeah... sorry. Didn't notice that it was two squads of taqs. Still, why take Tyberos if you are leaving out The Red Brethren? That's like sucking the candy coating off of M&M's and spitting out the chocolate!

1. Guaranteed Warlord trait that helps TH/SS Terminators with their biggest weakness: hitting things thanks to a smaller number of attacks. Same logic applies to Assault Centurions if you're a braver fellow than I, but some have done it with minor success.
2. Buff to the Chapter Tactics itself. Once you cleared that one squad out, you're gonna have S5. That means S9 Thunder Hammers and his Chainfists.
3. Cheaper than a similar Terminator Chapter Master. If you're gonna footslog a Chapter Master with these Chapter Tactics, might as well just do Tyberos.

I still do have a few issues with his rules, trust me (not having EW is a fething shame when you're relying on a bloody 5++), but I still use him anyway.

I hadn't even thought of the preferred enemy aspect helping out the hammernators. I think I'll take the time to magnetize them so I have the option to play both options depending who/what I'm up against. My meta can be bordering on competitive sometimes, ranging to "I've been playing for 6 years and still can't steer a rhino"

Both of you guys seriously made me laugh out loud by the way haha. Sucking on m&ms, and slayer....your signature is amazing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think with the help you have given me, I'm ready to start putting the army together. Murderous, angry, smashy space sharks are gonna be way more fun to play than Raven Guard or Scorpions.

I'll get it all together over the next couple months and start some play testing to make tweaks as necessary.

I only argued for The Red Brethren for flavour's sake. Of course TH/SS is better competivley. Magnatizing is great, as I magnatize almost everything I build. I love the lore behind thier attack during The Badab War. If you have't read it, you should.