Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey gang. Like the topic says, I'm diving into Warmachine after playing 40k and WFB for a long time.

I have a fairly good grasp on the rules, and I'm acquiring 242 pts of Retribution via trade. Now I'm looking to take the next step. Can any veteran Warmahordes players give me some tips on what bad habits I should avoid in moving from one system to the other? I know basic stuff like protecting the caster and trying to have synergy in lists, but is there anything else long-time players could suggest?

 Auswin wrote:
Hey gang. Like the topic says, I'm diving into Warmachine after playing 40k and WFB for a long time.

I have a fairly good grasp on the rules, and I'm acquiring 242 pts of Retribution via trade. Now I'm looking to take the next step. Can any veteran Warmahordes players give me some tips on what bad habits I should avoid in moving from one system to the other? I know basic stuff like protecting the caster and trying to have synergy in lists, but is there anything else long-time players could suggest?

Forget everything you've 'learned' from playing 40k games. WMH requires a different mentality and different thinking.

Oh, and embrace page5.

Welcome to the iron kingdoms! *here, hands Auswin a Phoenix plushie! *

Edit: most I portamtly, have fun!

Don't try to read into the rules. All the rules mean EXACTLY what they say, and reading intent into them is a good way to become confused very quickly.

- Re-learn your dice math asap, everything in Warmachine used 2D6 and the faster you can get your head around your hit percentages the better.
- You can't premeasure everything and you need to be more precise with your movement. Even for long time 40k players (who played when there was no pre-measuring) it takes a while to kick this habit. Particularly in regard to movement for units, you are supposed to declare intent and then measure and move (so you can't premeasure your end point etc).
- Start with smaller games, there is a heap of stuff to learn. Also expect to lose most of your games when you start.
- Activation order will trip you up (particularly with Ret) as will Deathclock. This just requires practice.
- Always remember that the nature of the 'alternating army activation' turn system combined with the assasination win condition means that you can almost always engineer a win even after your army gets smashed.

Be precise in your measurements. Normal 40k levels of measurements are extremely sloppy by WMH standards. This is why there are a bunch of widgets for measuring on the market so you can be as accurate as possible.

Also, because there is no premeasuring once you have made a measurement(except for your warcaster's control area or your model's melee range which can be measured at any time) you are locked into performing that action.

Like everyone else said, the rules mean exactly what they say. Don't read into them. Many phrases and words have been explicitly defined. Things like "within", "completely within", "boxed", "disabled", "destroyed", "action", "movement", "full advance", "charge", etc... all have very specific meanings different from each other.

Declaration of intent is also important. It will keep the lines of communication with your opponent open and that is necessary to play the game correctly. Many abilities trigger in specific orders so your opponent needs to know what you are doing in case something of his will trigger.


More abstractly, the skill in WMH is not just knowing the rules and how they effect your models, but also knowing what your opponent's stuff does. WMH lists can be built to hard counter other specific lists, and I mean HARD counters. You might have a Rhan list with a ton of Battlemages that gets matched up against a Protectorate total magic denial list, none of your attack spells will be able to be used. This is why tournaments are always a minimum of 2 lists. This lets you not get hosed by a bad matchup by having a list that covers it, but it also requires a cursory knowledge of other factions.

I switch back and forth between the two games quite a bit, and always get tripped up for a half dozen games moving back to WMH after 40k.

One of the big things that gets me is the way that durability/damage and jamming works in WMH. Though a heavy warbeast/jack is conceptually similar in size/power to a Monstrous Creature or Walker, they will do far less damage and die far more quickly. In 40k, I can charge a monstrous creature in to a unit of space marines, kill 4 on the charge, kill another 4 the next turn, and probably be free to act. In WMH, a beast or jack without reach will kill 2 models at most. Conversely, in 40k your big models (MCs, heavy vehicles, walkers) can be quite durable even against other models of their own type - whereas in WMH many heavy beasts can one-round a colossal with slightly better than average dice.

WMH is a lot more 'chess-like' than 40k. Models may seem tighltly packed together or placed weirdly, but after playing for a while you can see that X model is controlling areas of the board simply by its facing - compared to 40k where you can waltz right past the enemy.

And WMH encourages synergy a lot more than 40k. You'll find that if you want to switch your caster, you'll also need to switch out a ton of other models or even your entire force to gain the most mileage. Building lists with powerful combinations and interactions is encouraged and expected - compared to 40k where a lot of people cry cheese beyond a certain point of army strength.

My advice would be to not treat them at all like the same game. WMH is chess and 40k is Risk... they're both board games, but that about where the similarity in rules and tactics ends.

Order of activation matters so much more in WMH.

The turn phases are different. In 40k you move everything, shoot with everything, then melee with everything. At least that's how it was when I played.

In Warmachine, you "activate" one model (or unit of models) at a time. That model moves and attacks and it's done for the turn. Then you move on to the next thing. This is why people bring up order of activation. It's way different from 40k.

Thanks for the tips everyone. This has been super helpful. The lot I'm getting will have basically every warcaster and unit combo I could ever want. Does anyone know ret well enough to suggest starting with one caster over another?

 Auswin wrote:
Thanks for the tips everyone. This has been super helpful. The lot I'm getting will have basically every warcaster and unit combo I could ever want. Does anyone know ret well enough to suggest starting with one caster over another?

Doesn't really matter which Warcaster at first. I'd avoid Issyria- she is a difficult Warcaster. Same with Garryth. He is more a "super solo" then a Warcaster. For the rest:

Kaelyssa is a ranged assassin that does a lot of tricks with Focus and Fury (saps it so she can spend it). Good all around Caster.
Ravyn- Famous more for her feat then anything else. Another good all around Warcaster.
Rahn- Denial/support Warcaster. Lots of movement shenanigans with the right units. One of the "Power Casters" of Ret.
Vyros- kind of a Warjack Warcaster. Likes Dawnguard units.
Epic Vyros- Don't let the Cavalry rules fool you. Great Warcaster. Large base hurts him a little.
Ossyan- ranged warcaster. Great feat.

Ret isn't so much about it's Warcasters (like some of the other factions). They are more of a combined arms kind of faction.

Which brings me to a couple points.

You will lose. A lot in the beginning. Most players lose about 10 games against similar skilled players before they win one. And you'll probably be a bit bewildered about how you won.

Never, ever forget about the scenario. You will concentrate so much on assassinating your opponent's Warcaster, that he'll just up and announce "Good game!" and you'll be like "WTF...?" and your opponent will say "I have 5 Control Points. I win..."

The best advice I can give to a new player is just play the game. Don't worry so much about what's in your list. Seeing the synergy between your models is more an art then a learned skill. Activating and moving models, attack order, when to pop your feat... that all comes with experience. So, just play the game, expect to lose a lot in the beginning, and enjoy the ride.

Welcome to the machine... the WARMACHINE! PAGE 5 4evah!!11!!!1!

 Auswin wrote:
Thanks for the tips everyone. This has been super helpful. The lot I'm getting will have basically every warcaster and unit combo I could ever want. Does anyone know ret well enough to suggest starting with one caster over another?

Play battle box games to start with, which is kaelyssa. Cut your teeth with those games. Learn the basics before jumping up to even 'small' games. This is a game where jumping in at thr deep end gets your very very lost very very quickly. Start small, build up.

You will lose. A lot. Unlike 40k this is not a game where you will lose because you play faction x. You will lose because you got outplayed, outmanoevered, and out thought. This is a game where the veteran will beat the noob because of 'skill'. You will lose a lot of games until things start to 'click' - like I said, it takes a bit of time to start 'thinking' like a WMH player,

Net lists won't save you. There are duds, but pretty much everything can be built into a game winning strategy. That is not to say that everything works with everything else, all the time and against all opponents. Your synergies are key.

This is a very 'assertive' game. In 40k you whine and moan because your opponent gets cool toys and you can't deal with them. In this game, you have the answers. There is no 2++ rerollable deathstar than can absorb an armies dakka and move on. TrasvI touched on it - simply put, you can deal with anything your opponent can bring, because you are capable of killing it. There is always a way.

deadnight wrote:
You will lose because you got outplayed, outmanoevered, and out thought.

Or "Gotcha'd!". I have had several games I lost because I didn't know a unit could do that.

Be sure to ask questions. If someone says "Unit X with UA" ask to see the card & ask what the UA does for them. This game is full disclosure, if you ask to see the rules / card your opponent MUST show you.

Every unit, especially with a UA, does something that changes the game and often the UA changes the unit for a significant boost. It's not like 40k where a space marine & an imperial guardsman do the same thing, just one a lot better than the other.

Like Mage Hunter Strike Force. Good unit, you may know what they do. But if I say MHSF with UA now they can ignore LOS and cover/concealment when shooting and all of a sudden that one model makes the entire unit MUCH more dangerous, and if you don't know that you will likely lose to a "gotcha"moment. Plus that doesn't go away if you kill the UA.

Don't ever feel bad asking to see the cards / asking for an explanation on a rule / ability, nobody is expected to know everything every model does. If someone intentionally hides rules from you, they're just being a nob & trying to win with a "Gotcha" rather than by outplaying you. I may still be bitter over a player who had kayazy assasins with UA and said the UA "Makes let's them move through models for a turn". While not wrong he neglected to say they also are immune to free-strikes during it and it cost me the game. When in doubt, ask for the card.

When measuring your control area for a caster don't sweep your ruler back and forth. It's a open information game and your opponent could ask you for the distance for every model you swept over with your ruler.

Play the scenario!!!!!! Don't get caught up in destroying your opponents army.

Dont caster hop. Play the caster you like in as many games as possible. Learn that casters strengths and weaknesses. Learn the bad match ups and the good match ups.

Join a journeyman league, you will get a bunch of games in and really learn your army.

stick to 1-2 warcasters when you start and learn you faction. understand that this game is more competitive then 40k so games will be more aggressive. learn the scenarios quickly and always play with them.

 Auswin wrote:
Thanks for the tips everyone. This has been super helpful. The lot I'm getting will have basically every warcaster and unit combo I could ever want. Does anyone know ret well enough to suggest starting with one caster over another?

Tamwulf's list is right on.

I learned with Kaelyssa and Vyros1. I think they are both good choices for new players. Kaelyssa has the tools for any job and Vyros1 is tough for an elf and can be played aggressively... I think he has personally killed more enemy warcasters than any of my other warcasters. Birds eye and Flank is nice. I think he works best in low level mangled metal games (no units or solos) due to mobility, flank, and birds eye.

If I had to start over, I think I'd choose Kaelyssa first (she's solid and plays nice with everything) and Ossyan (also well-rounded, but more shooting focused). I'd try to get games in with both of them and then branch out.

Vyros2 is great once you wrap your head around activation order. He also works best with a kinda specialized list (a lot of griffons), so I'd hold off on him.

Also, make sure to read the rules in the book for Warjacks, the abilities they have not printed on their card due to being Warjacks, and Power Attacks once you are comfortable with the game. Nothing better than the look on your opponents face when you trample overhis infantry to get your 'jack into position to do something heinous.