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Hi there!

For awhile now I've been interested in building a FoW force to play with and only until recently I picked up the main rulebook. So I read through the rules and then started to look through the "Forces" paperback it came with. I want to make a German late-war force. From the threads I have read it sounds like most games run anywhere under 1900pts, but from the Panzerkompanie force org in the book, just having the minimum number of panthers required to start the armored company I'd be at somewhere around 1500pts. I wanted to build a mixed force and run some panthers, a King Tiger, Panzergrenadiers, some hummels, and a luchs platoon for reconnaissance, but from what I am seeing in the book that's going to put me over 2000pts. Am I missing something here? Is there any way to build the kind of list I want and fit it into an average point level? Also does that even sound like a decent list that will do well? Like I said: entirely new to the game. Heck, I haven't even played a game, just watched one so I'd love to get some feedback on this.

Thanks!

For are group we usually run around a 2000pt forces, it just depends on the other players in your area or opponent. we have played with quite alot more pts than that. Thru my experience it is easy to build up a army to the 2ooo pt scale if you are playing veteran forces and of course their will be people who disagree with me on this.
Also i am not a tourney player , i am just a GArgage gamer with a very large table and a avid collector.

I think you should check Desperate Measures it has much more flexible lists.

Most players that I have seen that use Panthers only use a single platoon, with the second compulsory platoon equipped with either Panzers or StuGs.

If you're willing to forego your Panthers for the time being, a good starting point might be the plastic German starter that's due for release next month. It checks in significantly lower than 2000 points, so there's still plenty of room for expansion. And it includes both armored vehicles and infantry, so you can get your feet wet with both kinds of units before really diving into the game.

Thanks for the suggestions. I may have to buy the desperate measures briefings online. That said I did previously buy the Bridge at Remagen briefings and came up with this list:

SCHWERE PANZERKOMPANIE (506.)

Schwere Panzerkompanie HQ
- 1 Königstiger (Henschel)

Schwere Panzer Platoon (506.)
- 1 Königstiger (Henschel)

Panzer Platoon
- 3 Panther G

Panzergrenadier Platoon
- Cmd Panzerfaust/MG Team w/(Sd Kfz 251/21 (15mm))
- 2 Panzerfaust/MG Teams

Panzergrenadier Platoon
- Cmd Panzerfaust/MG Team w/(Sd Kfz 251/21 (15mm))
- 2 Panzerfaust/MG Teams

Motorised Artillery Battery
- 4 15cm sFH18 howitzers

What do you think? Comes out to 1700pts. Did I cover most of my bases with this?

I wouldn't recommend understrength Panzergrenadier platoons. You're better off with full-strength, 3-squad platoons.

I'm also not trying to discourage you from taking King Tigers, but realize that if you lose one (or both) that's a very large portion of your list that is out of the game. And they don't even need to be destroyed to be taken out of most of the action. There is also only so much that two big tanks can kill per turn. Unless you really want to use King Tigers, you might be better off with more Panthers, or Panzer IVs, or StuGs.

The simple way to accommodate all the things you want is to drop their rating - if you go for veterans you'll never get it all, where as if you go trained you have far more chance - though your troops will be worse.

The other issue is that having both panthers and king tigers - even as trained units, is pricy points wise!

Your list above looks pretty bad - you're not really covering any base well. If I was doing that list it would look more like

Schwere panzer 510 (RT)
Hq 2 king tigers
Platoon 1 2 king tigers
Platoon 2 2 king tigers
Volksturm platoon + LMG
Volksturm platoon + LMG
3 15cm nebelwerfers
4 flak 38 AA

1625 points so a more than reasonable starting size.

You auto defend so no need for recon or 'good' assault troops

And you have cheap arty and AA as well

The problem with running King Tigers and Panthers is you are combining the most expensive heavy tank and the most expensive medium tank, and will have only 5 hulls representing a large portion of your points.

Since you have B@R, you could take SS Westfalen supported by KTs and Panthers, like this:

German SS-Panzerbrigade Westfalen

Infantry Company, from Bridge at Remagen, page 66


Compulsory SS-Panzerbrigade Westfalen HQ (p.67) - CinC Panzerfaust SMG, 2iC Panzerfaust SMG (60 pts)
- 2x Panzerschrek (50 pts)
- 4x Panzerfaust Trap (80 pts)

Compulsory Ersatz SS-Aufklarungs Platoon (p.67) - Command Panzerfaust Rifle/MG, 6x Panzerfaust Rifle/MG (200 pts)
- Replace Command Panzerfaust Rifle/MG with Command Panzerfaust SMG (0 pts)

Compulsory Ersatz SS-Aufklarungs Platoon (p.67) - Command Panzerfaust Rifle/MG, 6x Panzerfaust Rifle/MG (200 pts)
- Replace Command Panzerfaust Rifle/MG with Command Panzerfaust SMG (0 pts)

Ersatz SS-Mortar Platoon (p.68) - 1x Command SMG, 4x 8cm GW34 mortar (95 pts)
- Observer Rifle (15 pts)

Ersatz SS-Scout Platoon (p.68) - Command Rifle, 3x Rifle (85 pts)
- Replace Command Rifle with Command Panzerfaust Rifle (10 pts)

508. Schwere Panzer Platoon (p.70) - Command Panther G, 2x Panther G (385 pts)

507. Schwere Panzer Platoon (p.69) - Command Konigstiger (Henschel) (300 pts)

Veteran Volks Light Artillery Battery (p.75) - Command SMG, Staff, Observer Rifle, 3x 15cm sFH18 howitzer (205 pts)

Light Anti-aircraft Gun Battery (p.77) - Command SMG, 4x 2cm FlaK38 gun (65 pts)

1750 Points, 8 Platoons



You could do it with trained forces from KG Peiper in Devil's Charge

German Kampfgruppe Peiper

Tank Company, from Devils Charge, page 10


Compulsory SS-Kampfgruppe Peiper HQ (p.11) - CinC Konigstiger (Henschel) (305 pts)

Compulsory Schwere SS-Panzer Platoon (p.12) - Command Konigstiger (Henschel) (295 pts)

SS-Panzer Platoon (p.11) - Command Panther G, 2x Panther G (490 pts)

Gepanzerte SS-Panzergrenadier Platoon (p.12) - Command MG, 6x MG, 4x Sd Kfz 251/1 half-track (200 pts)

SS-Panzer Anti-Aircraft Gun Platoon (p.13) - Command Wirbelwind (Quad 2cm), 2x Wirbelwind (Quad 2cm) (140 pts)

SS-Panzerspah Platoon (p.17) - Command Sd Kfz 234/1 (2cm), 2x Sd Kfz 234/1 (2cm) (110 pts)

SS-Artillery Battery (p.16) - Command SMG, Staff, Observer Rifle, Kubelwagen, 3x 15cm sFH18 howitzer (205 pts)

1745 Points, 6 Platoons




If you were willing to give up the KingTigers, the 2nd and Lehr pdf would give you Panthers, Hummels, infantry and good recon and artillery support.
http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/Documents/Briefings/2-and-Lehr-Panzerdivison.pdf

Thanks for the advice! When I'm off work I'll have to take a closer look at those lists.

All the German 'Big Cats' suffer from a lack of numbers. That being said, the one 'Big Cat' list I've considered features the biggest of cats, the Jagdtiger:

German 512. Schwere Panzerjager (2. Kompanie)

Tank Company, from Bridge at Remagen, page 48

Compulsory 512. Schwere Panzerjager HQ (2. Kompanie) (p.49) - CinC Jagdtiger, 2iC Jagdtiger (535 pts)
- Bergepanther recovery vehicle (10 pts)
- Replace CinC Jagdtiger with Otto Carius Jagdtiger (RV) (85 pts)

Compulsory 512. Schwere Panzerjager Platoon (p.49) - Command Jagdtiger (270 pts)

512. Schwere Panzerjager Platoon (p.49) - Command Jagdtiger (270 pts)

512. Panzer Anti-Aircraft Gun Platoon (p.51) - Command Ostwind, 2x Ostwind (120 pts)

Panzergrenadier Platoon (p.73) - Command Panzerfaust MG, 6x Panzerfaust MG, 4x Sd Kfz 251/1 half-track (215 pts)
- Replace Sd Kfz 251/1 half-track with Sd Kfz 251/17 (2cm) half-track (5 pts)

Volks Rocket Launcher Battery (p.76) - Command SMG, 2x Observer Rifle, 6x 15cm NW41 rocket launcher (135 pts)

Air Support (p.77) - Sporadic Me 262 A2a Sturmvogel (105 pts)


1750 Points, 5 Platoons

I've found the big cat lists have one massive advantage, though only if you also have another list or two to play - your regular opponents will realise they have to be able to handle the cats - this will help your other lists out no end.

The cat list is then something to use occasionally and enjoy, they seem to win big or get utterly pasted if people can deal with them as they lack the numbers. Feels wrong* using them when your opponent wasn't expecting and isn't ready to use them.

The Me262 is fun, hits pretty hard but 'sporadic' makes it cheap, figure you'll get it for a turn, I find it tends to turn up when you have no valid targets, worth the points for making an enemy spread out a bit though.

That Jagdtiger list looks greta fun

* as in using an 88 on cavalry, you know you shouldn't but by gork its fun

So I picked up the Desperate Measures briefings and I like what I see. I do want to run Panthers, but how much infantry do I need for a good list to be effective and not bloated with armor? I am also wondering how effective the Luchs tanks are at what they do and if 3 would be effective in my list or do I need to run 6? Here are 2 lists I came up with though:

PANZER KAMPFGRUPPE - 1980pts (6 Platoons)
Panzer Kampfgruppe HQ (Trained)
- 2x Panther G
- 2x Assault Rifle Tank Escort

Panzer Platoon (Trained)
- 4x Panther G

Panzer Platoon (Trained)
- 3x StuG G (late)

Panzer Anti-aircraft Gun Platoon (Trained)
- 3x Wirbelwinds

Tracked Panzerspäh Platoon
- 3x Panzer II L Luchs

Panzergrenadier Platoon
- 1x Cmd Panzerfaust MG team
- 1x Sd Kfz 251/21 (15mm)
- 6x Panzerfaust MG team
- 3x Sd Kfz 251/1

Armoured Artillery Battery (Trained)
- 1x Cmd SMG team
- 1x Kfz 15 field car
- 1x Staff team
- 1x Kfz 68 radio truck
- 4x Hummel
- 2x Observer Rifle team
- 2x Sd Kfz 250

Air Support
- 3x Sporadic Air Support Ju 87G Stuka


-------------------------------------------------------------
PANZERGRENADIER KAMPFGRUPPE - 2000pts (7 Platoons)
Panzergrenadier Kampfgruppe HQ (Trained)
- 2x Cmd Panzerfaust SMG team
- 3x Sd Kfz 251/1
- 1x Panzerschreck team

Panzersturm Platoon (Trained)
- 1x Cmd Panzerfaust Assault Rifle team
- 1x Sd Kfz 251/21 (15mm)
- 6x Panzerfaust Assault Rifle team
- 3x Sd Kfz 251/1

Panzergrenadier Platoon (Trained)
- 1x Cmd Panzerfaust MG team
- 6x Panzerfaust MG team
- 4x Sd Kfz 251/1

Panzer Platoon (Trained)
- 4x Panther G

Panzer Platoon (Trained)
- 4x StuG G (late)

Tracked Panzerspäh Platoon (Trained)
- 3x Panzer II L Luchs

Armoured Artillery Battery (Trained)
- 1x Cmd SMG team
- 1x Kfz 15 field car
- 1x Staff team
- 1x Kfz 68 radio truck
- 4x Hummel
- 2x Observer Rifle team
- 2x Sd Kfz 250

Luftwaffe Light Anti-aircraft Gun Platoon (RELUCTANT TRAINED: Allied Platoon)
- 1x Cmd SMG team
- 3x 3.7cm Flak43 gun

Air Support
- 3x Sporadic Air Support Ju 87G Stuka

Firstly what points are played in your area? 2K is a lot!

There is no need to have infantry if you don't want it - 1 platoon of trained may not be needed.

You may also want a total of 5 panthers (1 box) for economics, and you can get away with three hummels

The Luchs are spot on

Hq 2 Panther
3 panthers
4 StuGs + escorts
3 whirblwind
3 luchs
3 hummels

1740 points

 Reaver83 wrote:
Firstly what points are played in your area? 2K is a lot!

That's the thing. There really isn't a gaming group in the area I'm in. At least as far as I know. I've looked at the list of registered clubs on the FoW website and there appear to be none by me. I just happen to love the miniatures (and idea of a WW2 tabletop game) and would like to have an army if I ever run into another player on my outings near places that do play FoW.

Try posting on the WWPD forum, they also have a player finder bit

Also try the facebook group

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:

 Reaver83 wrote:
Firstly what points are played in your area? 2K is a lot!

That's the thing. There really isn't a gaming group in the area I'm in. At least as far as I know. I've looked at the list of registered clubs on the FoW website and there appear to be none by me. I just happen to love the miniatures (and idea of a WW2 tabletop game) and would like to have an army if I ever run into another player on my outings near places that do play FoW.

Dont feel bad we only have 3 players n my area and that is because they are my gaming group, ALSO RELATIVES> IF EVER IN CENTRAL ILL> I AM ALWAYS UP FOR GAME>
ALso keyboard is on the fritz,got drunk spilled some stuff on it.

 col. krazy kenny wrote:

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:

 Reaver83 wrote:
Firstly what points are played in your area? 2K is a lot!

That's the thing. There really isn't a gaming group in the area I'm in. At least as far as I know. I've looked at the list of registered clubs on the FoW website and there appear to be none by me. I just happen to love the miniatures (and idea of a WW2 tabletop game) and would like to have an army if I ever run into another player on my outings near places that do play FoW.

Dont feel bad we only have 3 players n my area and that is because they are my gaming group, ALSO RELATIVES> IF EVER IN CENTRAL ILL> I AM ALWAYS UP FOR GAME>
ALso keyboard is on the fritz,got drunk spilled some stuff on it.

Haha, well funny you should say that because it was in Illinois when this game peaked my interest. I have a couple of friends down there that are into wargamming and we visited Draxtar Games in Batavia. Seems like they have a pretty sizable player base because there had to of been at least 3-4 games of FoW going when I was there. Sadly those two friends are moving from Illinois, but I'm hopeful I can maybe get one of them into FoW so I could have another player to fight here in Michigan. Granted, they will be in Lansing, but that's not too far of a drive for me.

According to the Flames of War website, there are events in Livonia and Gaylord, MI.