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Hi all,

I have been having a hard time fine-tuning the anti-tank (and anti-knight/wraithknight/other big gribblies) in my guard army. Old addage: infantry kills tanks, tanks kill infantry. None of the options are quite perfect, which is really good from an internal balance point of view, and frustrating from a list building POV. Here are the options as I see it, not including allies:

Platoon command melta:
Pros
-Have to take it anyway
-Cheap
-Can get orders
Cons
-Needs transport
-Fragile
-Needs to get close
-Orders far away

Scion melta:
Pros
-Cheap
-DS option
-Can get orders
Cons
-Transport or rely on DS
-Orders are probably far away

Veteran melta:
Pros
-3 BS 4 meltas
-Can get orders
Cons
-Have to be close
-Need a transport
-Orders far away

Veteran demolitions (melta bombs):
Pros
-Demo charges are fun
-Average most armor bane hits of all the options
Cons
-Need to be in CC
-Requires a transport

Veteran las canon:
Pros
-BS 4
-Orders
-48"
Cons
-10 GEQ wounds or no orders in chimera
-Immobile or no orders in chimera
-Waste lasgun shots

Infantry assault platoon (melta bomb sergeants):
Pros
-50 guardsmen with krak grenades will hurt something
-Can use las guns
-Multi-threat
Cons
-SLOW
-Will die in droves
-Requires lots of support

Infantry squad las canon:
Pros
-Cheap
-Long ranged
-Gets orders
-Can blob
Cons
-Immobile
-Waste tons of las guns
-Requires lots of support
-BS 3
-Vulnerable to assault

Vanquisher:
Pros
-Super range
-Armor Bane
-Durable
-Relatively mobile
Cons
-BS 3 or 4
-Single-purpose to a fault
-No orders

Exterminator w/MM sponsons:
Pros
-Durable
-Relatively mobile
Cons
-BS 3 or 4
-Waste AC shots
-No orders

Vendetta:
Pros
-Mobile
-3 TL LC
-Transport capacity
Cons
-Price
-No orders
-Can be forced to jink/get shaken
-Flier vectoring can be a pain

Vulture:
Pros
-Neat model
-Multi-purpose
-Reliable through weight of dice
-Mobile
Cons
-Needs rear armor/useless against AV 12+
-No orders
-Forgeworld, so people may be snarky

I'd add:

HWS with Lascannons (cheap, fragile, BS3, can be supported)

Pask in a Punisher (low range, bullet sponge)

maybe Rapier laser destroyer (never tried)

Blobs with Lascannon (in contrast with single IS with the same; better to be supported, and can get awesome but expensive with support, can be tarpited (but is a tarpit by itself)).

I've looked at the Astra militarum stats, from what I've saw maybe try Leman Russ demolishers supported by a few Taurox APCs full of a melta spam

Demolishers are ineffective in the age of Jink and ++ saves. The most likely way to kill AV with Guard is a blobed platoon with Psyker and CCS Support. Fire On My Target was a thing of beaty against the previous incarnation of the Wave Serpent. And Bring it Down against Land Raiders works... most of the time.
Were talking about 20-30 men with 1LC for every 10 men. Add a Primaris to raise their LD to 9 for orders plus a CCS with a vox and whatever heavy weapon you want to givew them. Camo is a nessecity for the CCS as they die to a stiff Breeze.

Lascannon teams are under rated, they look great too,

The vendetta to me is still my own choice though.

I know forgeworld isn't always an option, but in the age of Wraithknights, etc. guard deserve a boost. The rapier laser batter is superb at anti-tank, anti-monstrous creature. Twin-linked ordinance lascannon artillery (so toughness 7) at...can't remember the points, but less than 50. Squad of three and it is brutal. But, I am partial to old school guard artillery.

When playing against guard, I find the HWS with Lascannons to be causing the most damage overall. They're pretty efficient about putting out a volume of high strength fire, and can be frustratingly durable if you camp them behind an aegis or in ruins.

The Lemon Russ's of all type seem pretty meh. So often they're just doing one HP worth of damage per turn.

Vendettas from the 5e book were very effective. I haven't played much against them since then, but even with the price hike I think they would still be pretty okay.

I've found special weapons squads (platoons commands, vets) to be kind of squishy and not very reliable, but I see them used very effectively in high-level games.

All of the below are my opinion and is based on my experiences and just looking at the problem.
Your results may vary, the only guarantee is that I mean well...

Problem:
Most IG/AM are BS3
I am assuming vehicles from AV12 to AV14 with a preference for weapons AP 1 to 2.

Workaround:
Templates, more elite units with BS4, twin linked or "spam" the weapons.

Suggestions:

Plasma:

Plasma cannon type weapons use templates, S7 so good to AV13 and AP2.
Sentinels and on tanks where BS3 is not as much a problem.
Veteran squad in transport with plasma guns, used to be the old standard. Usually tempted for more armor due to "gets hot" rule.

There are other options but these are the more "practical" areas to use them.

Melta:

Not really melta but similar with the extra D6: Vanquisher tank: needs to be for HQ tank commander for the BS4. Good solid long range armor killer.
The deep strike 5 man suicide squads of Tempestus with meltas are a quick assassination group for vehicles.
Veteran squad in transport with melta guns, is the new standard.
Melta's on tanks are pretty much reserved for the HQ tank commanders.
Command squads also in a transport with melta guns are not bad, but typically in a Chimera and is more opportunity fire while being in range for orders.
Devil Dog... umm no. Expensive. Whole lot of melta there with a fast vehicle but just look at the points cost!

Lascannon:

Veteran squads, a shame to tie them down with a heavy weapon however.
Vendetta (3X TL-LC!), expensive though.
A less than optimal option to stick a LC in a command squad for sniping.
Hull sponson on an Exterminator tank (more opportunity than anything, plus matching 48" range).


At the very least, it gives some thought of a few options.
Fluffy commentary is unedited thoughts on my part.

If you're going Forge World, consider Medusa and Basilisk artillery pieces. Cheaper, harder to kill and can be given orders.

For 210 points, you get two 48" range s10 ap1 armorbane 3" blasts, with orders and t7, 4 wounds each. (Medusas with bastion breacher shell upgrades)

Can opt to use the s10 ap2 36" range for infantry, has a 5" blast

Death strike missile launcher.

I'm building a thematic Grenadier-Krieg army, and for my AT I decided to use either a couple of LR Exterminators + hull LC, or a couple of LR Annihilators + hull LC, no sponsons for background and aesthetics reasons. They can double as MC killers and ever AA in a pinch.

SU-152 wrote:
I'm building a thematic Grenadier-Krieg army, and for my AT I decided to use either a couple of LR Exterminators + hull LC, or a couple of LR Annihilators + hull LC, no sponsons for background and aesthetics reasons. They can double as MC killers and ever AA in a pinch.

This has been my goto as well: ok points cost, good reach, good flexibility for either tank and a more cost effective anti-aircraft.
I would suggest pintle weapons because any weapon destroyed result would hurt alot.
The battle cannon is hard to pass though, for smearing marines or anything less.

Use those fast-attack slots:

Rough riders. 55 points for a squad that moves 12" and is armed with krak grenades. The sgt can take melta bombs. They're not hard to keep out of LOS until you need them to charge, outflank if you get grand strategist or keep them in reserves. If they get wiped, then that's just 60 points. You can give two of them melta guns for extra oopmh.

Lascannon armored sentinels. Pricier than lascannon HWS, but way more durable. With AV 12 and only one weapon, most opponents will try to ignore them.

Autocannon/Missile scout sentinels, outflank with them, maybe even get a hunter-killer missile for extra alpha strike power. They come in and hit any vehicle in the flank. Even multilaser sentinels can do some damage against Dark Eldar and Ork vehicles.

---

On another note, I ran a manticore the other day and it still performed wonderfully, landing several S10 hits on tank squadrons, 2d6 pick the highest, and you're stripping hull points and stunning vehicles like crazy.

I'm also planning to try out my jack-of-all trades eradicator armed with lascanon and multimeltas. Alternate him between anti-infantry (which he usually kills super quick) and then switch to hunting down vehicles with his 14/13/10 frame.

I personally find some vets in ruins with a cs both with Lascanons that ideally ignore cover, throw in some psychic buffs if you want a bit more clout
Pask in a vanquisher is excellent vs lr or other high av
Melta vets in chimeras are OK and are a good high threat diversion for most
Manticore is alright, s10 is always handy at range
Superheavies if aloud

Problem with guard in comp play is all their good units are just OK compared to a lot if armies, that said they do offer excellent backup as allies to assault heavy or elite forces. Ignores cover is also the most hated thing in my group when I play gaurd and I bloody love it

dark_red wrote:
I personally find some vets in ruins with a cs both with Lascanons that ideally ignore cover, throw in some psychic buffs if you want a bit more clout
Pask in a vanquisher is excellent vs lr or other high av
Melta vets in chimeras are OK and are a good high threat diversion for most
Manticore is alright, s10 is always handy at range
Superheavies if aloud

Problem with guard in comp play is all their good units are just OK compared to a lot if armies, that said they do offer excellent backup as allies to assault heavy or elite forces. Ignores cover is also the most hated thing in my group when I play gaurd and I bloody love it

If you put ignore cover and/or psychic buff on a single veteran lascannon, you pay a lot of points for that single shot.

I think the really good thing with manticore against armor is that it has multiple USRs that work well together: D3 - so it's possible to strip all three HPs of a regular tank, Ordnance - so rolls 2D6 and takes the higher for armor pen, Barrage - so hits the side armor AND with multiple barrage rule, with rolling multiple hits, you can crawl back on target after a missifre, or hit other units along the way, with sniping from the center, Large blast - easier to crawl back from multiple barrage, can hit other units, and big chunks of other units. It's drawback is AP4 which doesn't give better rolls on pen table (though a 1-4 means it won't shoot next turn, which is really good), and will bounce of real armor of infantry.

The real drawback of the Manticore is its inability to fire Direct when the target is less than 36". Many thing that are only intimidated by Str 10 are fast enough to close that distance very quickly.

konst80hummel wrote:
The real drawback of the Manticore is its inability to fire Direct when the target is less than 36". Many thing that are only intimidated by Str 10 are fast enough to close that distance very quickly.

Pedant-Mallich, activate!
The 36'' minimum for direct fire is for the basilisk. The manticore's is 24''.
[/pedantry]

My bad, my bad. I shall go and report myself now to save you all the trouble....
At least the Earthshaker (all it's incarnations) can fire directly.

In reply to the OP: If you're going to run a platoon the Platoon Command Squad can be a nice place to sneak in one or two Lascannons. Since PCS will likely be hanging back (and theoretically moving less) it can make good use of the Heavy Weapons.

In regards to the Manticore, where does it say that it cannot direct fire? I've heard that multiple places now from reputable sources, but I can't find the spot in it's rules stating it can't (really curious now.)

 Cothonian wrote:
In regards to the Manticore, where does it say that it cannot direct fire? I've heard that multiple places now from reputable sources, but I can't find the spot in it's rules stating it can't (really curious now.)

The Storm Eagle Rockets entry on codex page 62.

Hunter-killers? Long range, high S, and highly available.
What vehicles cannot take them?
If you are going mechanised, get 1 per vehicle.
It might cost a lot, but there will be a lot of opportunity to use them.

 Skinnereal wrote:
Hunter-killers? Long range, high S, and highly available.
What vehicles cannot take them?
If you are going mechanised, get 1 per vehicle.
It might cost a lot, but there will be a lot of opportunity to use them.

S8 is not really high strength. It glances AV14 on a 6. It has AP3 too. And costs half a lascannon for a single use, BS3 krak missile.

I might suggest trying artillery carriages ,for 75pts a pop T7 8 wounds,4 per gun plus crew you get a s9 pie plate that you can add more wounds to via more crew,

Don't artilery carriages have 2 wound plus the 4 of the crew?
But still either way they rock hard. Attach a primaris there with the ignore cover power and have fun!

konst80hummel wrote:
Don't artilery carriages have 2 wound plus the 4 of the crew?
But still either way they rock hard. Attach a primaris there with the ignore cover power and have fun!

Heavy Artillery Carriages are an exception to the normal rules - they get 4 wounds per gun. It's similar to the way Tarantulas are only T6 and not T7.

Wow. I thought that was a typo... Thanks!

Zsolt wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Hunter-killers? Long range, high S, and highly available.
What vehicles cannot take them?
If you are going mechanised, get 1 per vehicle.
It might cost a lot, but there will be a lot of opportunity to use them.

S8 is not really high strength. It glances AV14 on a 6. It has AP3 too. And costs half a lascannon for a single use, BS3 krak missile.

I think they're probably only really worth it on scout sentinels where you can outflank and hit side armor on the turn they arrive.