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I keep hearing all these arguments comparing Codex: Space Marines to Codex: Eldar in terms of compatibility with Forge World and 6e rules designed to work with 6e Codices. Obviously, common sense should prevail on things like the allies matrix (I think these arguments are silly) but here is some hard proof that you can't treat the two the same.

Pictures, first:



From top to bottom --

1. 7e Codex: Space Marines
2. 6e Codex: Space Mariens
3. 7e Codex: Craftworlds
4. 6e Code: Eldar

Below, the copyright pages for the 7e versions:

- Codex: Craftworlds (c) Games Workshop Limited 2015. Codex: Craftworlds, GW, Games Workshop...
- Codex: Space Marines (c) Games Workshop Limited 2015. Codex: Space Marines, GW, Games Workshop...

So, going from 6e to 7e, the Codex for Eldar turned into Codex: Craftworlds. I think it's pretty obvious that it's still the Eldar faction, but whatever. I think anyone who won't let Eldar ally with Dark Eldar because they're now "Craftworld Eldar" is just being TFG. But rules that specifically say are designed to work with Codex: Eldar should not work (like Iyanden Supplement). Notice that the copyright page, which is the definitive name for the book, as well as the spine, do NOT contain Eldar. It's just Codex: Craftworlds.

On the other hand, going from 6e to 7e, Space Marines says "Adeptus Astares" on the cover, but the copyright page, and the spine, both say simply, Codex: Space Marines.

I would also point out that the BA codex reads on the spine, and in the copyright page, Codex: Blood Angels.

More to the point of casual/non-tournament games - Iyanden Supplement has rules and text that don't really fit the new Wraith units, AND there is a new formation for Wraith units. Imperial Armor books have no compatibility issues, other than MoTF is no longer an attribute of any unit in C:SM, so no, I don't think one should be allowed to take 2 pretty tanks "by the book". At least until that's FAQ'ed or IA 3e comes out. Of course, in those friendly games, just make friends and do what is fun

Do you think that's definitive enough?

Dam you talys how did you get the new codex so early lol

yeh, that seems pretty solid, not that I know anyone that would argue it much anyhow but I don't get it why would anyone say that they are not space marines or elder anymore?

Zen117 wrote:
Dam you talys how did you get the new codex so early lol

yeh, that seems pretty solid, not that I know anyone that would argue it much anyhow but I don't get it why would anyone say that they are not space marines or elder anymore?

The argument on the allies side has been that they are now "Adeptus Astartes" or "Adeptus Astartes Space Marines" (and in the case of Eldar, "Craftworld Eldar") rather than Space Marines/Eldar, so the Allies Matrix is now invalid. Which I think is totally stupid, but anyways.

On the other end, the Iyanden Supplement states specifically that it is a supplement for Codex: Eldar. Most of the experimental rules say that they can be used for different factions of space marines, but IA2 specifically says that units (like the sicaran) can be used with "Codex: Space Marines". So, the argument was a parallel between the two.

The counter-argument that I make is that the book name hasn't changed. It's still Codex: Space Marines, because the copyright page (and spine) says so.

On the website product listing, by the way, it's still called Codex: Space Marines (or Codex: Blood Angels) -- for the Eldar, it reads, Codex: Eldar Craftworlds and Codex: Eldar Harlequins.

Consistency for ya!

Someone pointed out that in the Allies Matrix you are supposed to use the symbols to determine which Faction an army belongs to; If the new "Craftworlds" have the correct symbol in their entries then the Allies Matrix still functions with them even on principal level.

I was going to play with everything working as before, but this picture is good hard proof that the name remained the same. And yeah Talys, cheater with an early codex!

As an aside, isn't the Iyanden supplement now phased out? I can't see the physical or digital copies available.

I heard it's banned from GW's own tournaments too, but I don't have any source. That would coincide with the book missing.

Runic wrote:Someone pointed out that in the Allies Matrix you are supposed to use the symbols to determine which Faction an army belongs to; If the new "Craftworlds" have the correct symbol in their entries then the Allies Matrix still functions with them even on principal level.

I was going to play with everything working as before, but this picture is good hard proof that the name remained the same. And yeah Talys, cheater with an early codex!

I never even thought of the icons! Good point I find it astounding that anyone would argue that Space Marines / Adeptus Astartes don't belong under "Armies of the Imperium" hahaha.

 Talys wrote:

Runic wrote:Someone pointed out that in the Allies Matrix you are supposed to use the symbols to determine which Faction an army belongs to; If the new "Craftworlds" have the correct symbol in their entries then the Allies Matrix still functions with them even on principal level.

I was going to play with everything working as before, but this picture is good hard proof that the name remained the same. And yeah Talys, cheater with an early codex!

I never even thought of the icons! Good point I find it astounding that anyone would argue that Space Marines / Adeptus Astartes don't belong under "Armies of the Imperium" hahaha.

Not only are the icons at the top of all the data sheets in Codex Craftworld the icon for faction Eldar, but the data sheet description goes on to say outright that every unit listed in the book is faction Eldar.

Necron book is the same way. Necron symbol, and data sheet description page says every unit is faction Necron.

The SM leaks I've seen all have the proper Space Marine faction icon at the top of all the data sheets, so they're all faction Space Marines.

I'm sorry to asking it here, but what icons at the top of data sheets in Daemonkins codex? What faction are they according to icons?

They're all faction Khorne Daemonkin, which isn't in the rule book. In the KD Codex appendix, it lists the levels of alliance for the other factions.

The stated faction for each unit data sheet is the only determining factor here, according to the Rules (unless no faction is stated).

The biggest overlooked part of this is that in some Detachments (Combined Arms Detachment and Allied Detachment, specifically... perhaps others), the only limitation on what units can be taken is that they share a common faction.

This means mixing and matching from multiple sources in a single detachment is entirely legal (supplements, main codexes, campaign books, white dwarf, and imperial armour) so long as the faction is the same.

P.S. Thanks, OP for the photo proof, though. I agree with your argument.

 HGChamberlainIV wrote:
The stated faction for each unit data sheet is the only determining factor here, according to the Rules (unless no faction is stated).

The biggest overlooked part of this is that in some Detachments (Combined Arms Detachment and Allied Detachment, specifically... perhaps others), the only limitation on what units can be taken is that they share a common faction.

This means mixing and matching from multiple sources in a single detachment is entirely legal (supplements, main codexes, campaign books, white dwarf, and imperial armour) so long as the faction is the same.

So how does that work with Forge World stuff that doesn't list factions, but references Codexes? That isn't a problem for Space Marines, since Codex Space Marines isn't changing names, but all the "Eldar" stuff references Codex Eldar, but we now choose our armies from Codex Craftworlds. If the Iyanden supplement is now a no go because it references Codex Eldar, does that mean all the Eldar Forgeworld stuff is a no go too? Am I missing a FAQ or updated book? Or is it, as I'm guessing, another gigantic mess for people to argue the narrative over?

EDIT: Was right in front of me. Found it under the faction section, units in older publications have the same faction the same as the title