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2015/07/01 14:02:12
Subject: Avian on Warseer: "WTF moments in the AoS rules"
I think we can move beyond that massive N&R thread, where everybody talks over everybody (and they're currently arguing over historical gaming or something). The rules have been well leaked now and the processing begun ...
That way discussion as to the "rules" of the new game can be discussed more effectively here and avoid cluttering up the news/rumour thread.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
I think the new rules are amazing. It gives me so much freedom to start loads of unique armies (see my "fun ideas" thread). The simple rules mean I can play with friends who like board games. And free rules mean NO RULEBOOKS (I love it!)
I am a massive fan. Pass me the circle bases!
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
Bottle wrote: I think the new rules are amazing. It gives me so much freedom to start loads of unique armies (see my "fun ideas" thread). The simple rules mean I can play with friends who like board games. And free rules mean NO RULEBOOKS (I love it!)
I am a massive fan. Pass me the circle bases!
You don't need circle bases is you read the rules. The bases could be triangles. I would not waste my money on new bases when you measure from the model
Avian wrote:So I've had a night to chew over the rules and even tried out the rules a little. They are somewhat puzzling at times, and I thought I'd do this in a structured way:
The Armies - Army selection restrictions are literally 'however many models you want' or 'however many models will physically fit in your deployment zone', whichever is lowest - You are not told to agree with your opponent what size battle you want to play (unlike 8th edition)
Warscrolls & Units - Unit sizes are either 1 or 1+. Taking a lot of 1-model units typically gives you a pile of free champion upgrades. - Models in the same unit must be no more than 1" apart. This is measured model-to-model and not base-to-base, so it might be closer than you think. -- I put down some Night Goblins and it turns out they have to be within 0.5" of the guy in front to be in formation. - It says that unit that end up out of formation must reform the next turn they move, but doesn't actually explain what that means, or what happens if they can't get back in formation.
Tools of War - You measure to and from the model, not the base. For extra reach, model your troopers with arms and weapons outstretched. -- An extra inch from spearmen seems doable. - Apparently, this game doesn't use templates at all.
The Battle Begins
Set-up - The player who finishes deployment first goes first, but this has very little effect since who goes first in later rounds is randomly determined.
Glorious Victory - Last man standing wins - All attempts at balancing are based around model count, not abilities or power -- So if your 10 Chaos Warriors are fighting 15 Goblins, they get a bonus - When summoning models into existing units, you must keep track of exactly which were there initially and which were summoned later. On third thought, this doesn't seem to be necessary.
Triumphs - If you won your last battle (as a major victory) you get a bonus in this one. It doesn't matter who you won against. -- Trust amongst players would seem to be required.
Battle Rounds - Half the time, you'll have two turns in a row.
Moving - You can stand on top of another model's base, as this isn't considered part of the model. - Because no part of the model can move further than it's Move value, pivoting on the spot costs movement.
Enemy Models - If a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it must either remain stationary or retreat. This means that any models in that unit who are not already within 3" of an enemy model (letting them make pile-in moves in the Combat phase) will be stuck where they are and unable to move until the enemy has chewed its way to them. -- Tactical dying is recommended if you don't want single models tying up whole units. -- Alternatively, bring missile weapons and fire away (see below) Nevermind, everyone gets to make pile-in moves.
Shooting Phase - Models in close combat can still shoot with no penalty, either at the unit they are engaged with, or some other unit. - You can shoot into close combat with no penalty.
Charge Phase - To successfully charge, you must end up within half an inch of an enemy model. Remember that this is measured model-to-model and NOT base-to-base. -- If you don't want your models to be charged, have them modeled with their hands behind their backs. - Yes, you CAN move, shoot with no penalty, charge and fight in melee, all in the same turn. -- Thus, the most powerful non-character models in the AoS box seem to be the angel guys. - You can charge models you can't see (ex: around a corner) - Unless you have a special rule, the charge bonus is extra movement.
Combat Phase - If you fielded your guys in neat ranks and files, they will probably break formation at this point in order to make their pile-in moves. - Pile-in moves can leave models who haven't fought yet stranded and unable to fight as they are suddenly more than 3" from their enemies.
Battleshock Phase - Units of 1 (including characters, who are always alone) are essentially unbreakable. -- If you bring a pile of single-model units, you never have to worry about Bravery. - For each ten models you have in the unit, one less guy will die from battleshock.
Attacking
Picking targets - Melee weapons now have a range, typically 1". -- If you make sure your models are on bases less than 1" in diameter, you can always attack in two ranks. Does anyone make 24 mm round bases?
Making attacks - Previously, WS, T and armour made you more difficult to kill. Now it's only armour.
Cover - You can shoot through woods or other terrain with no penalty. - A model standing behind a low wall doesn't benefit from cover. A model standing on top of that wall does. -- For a unit to benefit, they all need to be standing on top of the wall.
More when it comes in
Avian wrote:So I thought I'd check out how the charges actually work, and it turns out that these two models are not within half an inch of each other. In order to make a legal charge, their bases would need over overlap (which is legal, BTW).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/01 14:35:22
In terms of my hobbying I am more of a collector and painter of armies rather than a player of the games. However, the rules for AOS just seem severely flawed with a multitude of issues that could have been solved with minimal playtesting.
Do we think that the issues are caused by the apparent (apparent as AOS may just be act 1 in a multiple part play) brevity of the rules? Or is it more that GW just wanted to remove the complexity of their rule set and in doing so actually created a lot of other problems?
Additionally, fliers block movement because most models cannot reach the 0.5" to charge them, but you cannot have your own models within 3" of an enemy unless you are charging.
A series of flying models effectively created a barrier that you enemy models cannot move past but also cannot attack in close combat.
enemy units CAN'T move within 3" (M2M) without charging and when charging they MUST move within 1/2" (M2M).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/01 15:07:20
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
So I've had a night to chew over the rules and even tried out the rules a little. They are somewhat puzzling at times, and I thought I'd do this in a structured way:
The Armies
- Army selection restrictions are literally 'however many models you want' or 'however many models will physically fit in your deployment zone', whichever is lowest
- You are not told to agree with your opponent what size battle you want to play (unlike 8th edition)
Warscrolls & Units
- Unit sizes are either 1 or 1+. Taking a lot of 1-model units typically gives you a pile of free champion upgrades.
- Models in the same unit must be no more than 1" apart. This is measured model-to-model and not base-to-base, so it might be closer than you think.
-- I put down some Night Goblins and it turns out they have to be within 0.5" of the guy in front to be in formation.
- It says that unit that end up out of formation must reform the next turn they move, but doesn't actually explain what that means, or what happens if they can't get back in formation.
Tools of War
- You measure to and from the model, not the base. For extra reach, model your troopers with arms and weapons outstretched.
-- An extra inch from spearmen seems doable.
- Apparently, this game doesn't use templates at all.
The Battle Begins
Set-up
- The player who finishes deployment first goes first, but this has very little effect since who goes first in later rounds is randomly determined.
Glorious Victory
- Last man standing wins
- All attempts at balancing are based around model count, not abilities or power
-- So if your 10 Chaos Warriors are fighting 15 Goblins, they get a bonus
- When summoning models into existing units, you must keep track of exactly which were there initially and which were summoned later. On third thought, this doesn't seem to be necessary.
Triumphs
- If you won your last battle (as a major victory) you get a bonus in this one. It doesn't matter who you won against.
-- Trust amongst players would seem to be required.
Battle Rounds
- Half the time, you'll have two turns in a row.
Moving
- You can stand on top of another model's base, as this isn't considered part of the model.
- Because no part of the model can move further than it's Move value, pivoting on the spot costs movement.
Enemy Models
- If a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it must either remain stationary or retreat. This means that any models in that unit who are not already within 3" of an enemy model (letting them make pile-in moves in the Combat phase) will be stuck where they are and unable to move until the enemy has chewed its way to them.
-- Tactical dying is recommended if you don't want single models tying up whole units.
-- Alternatively, bring missile weapons and fire away (see below) Nevermind, everyone gets to make pile-in moves.
Shooting Phase
- Models in close combat can still shoot with no penalty, either at the unit they are engaged with, or some other unit.
- You can shoot into close combat with no penalty.
Charge Phase
- To successfully charge, you must end up within half an inch of an enemy model. Remember that this is measured model-to-model and NOT base-to-base.
-- If you don't want your models to be charged, have them modeled with their hands behind their backs.
- Yes, you CAN move, shoot with no penalty, charge and fight in melee, all in the same turn.
-- Thus, the most powerful non-character models in the AoS box seem to be the angel guys.
- You can charge models you can't see (ex: around a corner)
- Unless you have a special rule, the charge bonus is extra movement.
Combat Phase
- If you fielded your guys in neat ranks and files, they will probably break formation at this point in order to make their pile-in moves.
- Pile-in moves can leave models who haven't fought yet stranded and unable to fight as they are suddenly more than 3" from their enemies.
Battleshock Phase
- Units of 1 (including characters, who are always alone) are essentially unbreakable.
-- If you bring a pile of single-model units, you never have to worry about Bravery.
- For each ten models you have in the unit, one less guy will die from battleshock.
Attacking
Picking targets
- Melee weapons now have a range, typically 1".
-- If you make sure your models are on bases less than 1" in diameter, you can always attack in two ranks. Does anyone make 24 mm round bases?
Making attacks
- Previously, WS, T and armour made you more difficult to kill. Now it's only armour.
Cover
- You can shoot through woods or other terrain with no penalty.
- A model standing behind a low wall doesn't benefit from cover. A model standing on top of that wall does.
-- For a unit to benefit, they all need to be standing on top of the wall.
More when it comes in
Avian wrote:So I thought I'd check out how the charges actually work, and it turns out that these two models are not within half an inch of each other. In order to make a legal charge, their bases would need over overlap (which is legal, BTW).
Whoa man, that first block of text (spoilered here for length) sounds really bad.
And the image is just nuts. Oh GW, what were you thinking...
Salvage, what are your thoughts at this early stage? Are you thinking of sticking with 8th ed, trying out another ruleset (I'm kind of interested in Darklands), or giving Age of Sigmar a solid go? Maybe all of the above?
Doug, why can't enemy models get within 1/2" of flyers in your example, what am I missing there? Couldn't they just charge them?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/01 15:12:56
"If a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it must either remain stationary or retreat. This means that any models in that unit who are not already within 3" of an enemy model (letting them make pile-in moves in the Combat phase) will be stuck where they are and unable to move until the enemy has chewed its way to them."
Not true, as long as one model in the unit is withing that 3", everyone in the unit can make the pile in move.
So I've had a night to chew over the rules and even tried out the rules a little. They are somewhat puzzling at times, and I thought I'd do this in a structured way:
The Armies
- Army selection restrictions are literally 'however many models you want' or 'however many models will physically fit in your deployment zone', whichever is lowest
- You are not told to agree with your opponent what size battle you want to play (unlike 8th edition)
Warscrolls & Units
- Unit sizes are either 1 or 1+. Taking a lot of 1-model units typically gives you a pile of free champion upgrades.
- Models in the same unit must be no more than 1" apart. This is measured model-to-model and not base-to-base, so it might be closer than you think.
-- I put down some Night Goblins and it turns out they have to be within 0.5" of the guy in front to be in formation.
- It says that unit that end up out of formation must reform the next turn they move, but doesn't actually explain what that means, or what happens if they can't get back in formation.
Tools of War
- You measure to and from the model, not the base. For extra reach, model your troopers with arms and weapons outstretched.
-- An extra inch from spearmen seems doable.
- Apparently, this game doesn't use templates at all.
The Battle Begins
Set-up
- The player who finishes deployment first goes first, but this has very little effect since who goes first in later rounds is randomly determined.
Glorious Victory
- Last man standing wins
- All attempts at balancing are based around model count, not abilities or power
-- So if your 10 Chaos Warriors are fighting 15 Goblins, they get a bonus
- When summoning models into existing units, you must keep track of exactly which were there initially and which were summoned later. On third thought, this doesn't seem to be necessary.
Triumphs
- If you won your last battle (as a major victory) you get a bonus in this one. It doesn't matter who you won against.
-- Trust amongst players would seem to be required.
Battle Rounds
- Half the time, you'll have two turns in a row.
Moving
- You can stand on top of another model's base, as this isn't considered part of the model.
- Because no part of the model can move further than it's Move value, pivoting on the spot costs movement.
Enemy Models
- If a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it must either remain stationary or retreat. This means that any models in that unit who are not already within 3" of an enemy model (letting them make pile-in moves in the Combat phase) will be stuck where they are and unable to move until the enemy has chewed its way to them.
-- Tactical dying is recommended if you don't want single models tying up whole units.
-- Alternatively, bring missile weapons and fire away (see below) Nevermind, everyone gets to make pile-in moves.
Shooting Phase
- Models in close combat can still shoot with no penalty, either at the unit they are engaged with, or some other unit.
- You can shoot into close combat with no penalty.
Charge Phase
- To successfully charge, you must end up within half an inch of an enemy model. Remember that this is measured model-to-model and NOT base-to-base.
-- If you don't want your models to be charged, have them modeled with their hands behind their backs.
- Yes, you CAN move, shoot with no penalty, charge and fight in melee, all in the same turn.
-- Thus, the most powerful non-character models in the AoS box seem to be the angel guys.
- You can charge models you can't see (ex: around a corner)
- Unless you have a special rule, the charge bonus is extra movement.
Combat Phase
- If you fielded your guys in neat ranks and files, they will probably break formation at this point in order to make their pile-in moves.
- Pile-in moves can leave models who haven't fought yet stranded and unable to fight as they are suddenly more than 3" from their enemies.
Battleshock Phase
- Units of 1 (including characters, who are always alone) are essentially unbreakable.
-- If you bring a pile of single-model units, you never have to worry about Bravery.
- For each ten models you have in the unit, one less guy will die from battleshock.
Attacking
Picking targets
- Melee weapons now have a range, typically 1".
-- If you make sure your models are on bases less than 1" in diameter, you can always attack in two ranks. Does anyone make 24 mm round bases?
Making attacks
- Previously, WS, T and armour made you more difficult to kill. Now it's only armour.
Cover
- You can shoot through woods or other terrain with no penalty.
- A model standing behind a low wall doesn't benefit from cover. A model standing on top of that wall does.
-- For a unit to benefit, they all need to be standing on top of the wall.
More when it comes in
Avian wrote:So I thought I'd check out how the charges actually work, and it turns out that these two models are not within half an inch of each other. In order to make a legal charge, their bases would need over overlap (which is legal, BTW).
Whoa man, that first block of text (spoilered here for length) sounds really bad.
And the image is just nuts. Oh GW, what were you thinking...
Salvage, what are your thoughts at this early stage? Are you thinking of sticking with 8th ed, trying out another ruleset (I'm kind of interested in Darklands), or giving Age of Sigmar a solid go? Maybe all of the above?
Doug, why can't enemy models get within 1/2" of flyers in your example, what am I missing there? Couldn't they just charge them?
Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
Rihgu wrote: Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
Kinda makes sense in a way.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
Samurai_Eduh wrote:"If a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it must either remain stationary or retreat. This means that any models in that unit who are not already within 3" of an enemy model (letting them make pile-in moves in the Combat phase) will be stuck where they are and unable to move until the enemy has chewed its way to them."
Not true, as long as one model in the unit is withing that 3", everyone in the unit can make the pile in move.
Yea, somebody caught that on Warseer too, Avian just didn't update the first post yet.
pretre wrote:
Rihgu wrote: Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
Kinda makes sense in a way.
I am reminded of jumping up and killing flyers and crap with Kharn in 40k, before Gorechild stopped hitting them on 2+
Rihgu wrote: Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
Kinda makes sense in a way.
Interestingly, the flying Sigmarites actually touch the base due to the scrolls and bits. No flight stand.
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
So I've had a night to chew over the rules and even tried out the rules a little. They are somewhat puzzling at times, and I thought I'd do this in a structured way:
The Armies
- Army selection restrictions are literally 'however many models you want' or 'however many models will physically fit in your deployment zone', whichever is lowest
- You are not told to agree with your opponent what size battle you want to play (unlike 8th edition)
Warscrolls & Units
- Unit sizes are either 1 or 1+. Taking a lot of 1-model units typically gives you a pile of free champion upgrades.
- Models in the same unit must be no more than 1" apart. This is measured model-to-model and not base-to-base, so it might be closer than you think.
-- I put down some Night Goblins and it turns out they have to be within 0.5" of the guy in front to be in formation.
- It says that unit that end up out of formation must reform the next turn they move, but doesn't actually explain what that means, or what happens if they can't get back in formation.
Tools of War
- You measure to and from the model, not the base. For extra reach, model your troopers with arms and weapons outstretched.
-- An extra inch from spearmen seems doable.
- Apparently, this game doesn't use templates at all.
The Battle Begins
Set-up
- The player who finishes deployment first goes first, but this has very little effect since who goes first in later rounds is randomly determined.
Glorious Victory
- Last man standing wins
- All attempts at balancing are based around model count, not abilities or power
-- So if your 10 Chaos Warriors are fighting 15 Goblins, they get a bonus
- When summoning models into existing units, you must keep track of exactly which were there initially and which were summoned later. On third thought, this doesn't seem to be necessary.
Triumphs
- If you won your last battle (as a major victory) you get a bonus in this one. It doesn't matter who you won against.
-- Trust amongst players would seem to be required.
Battle Rounds
- Half the time, you'll have two turns in a row.
Moving
- You can stand on top of another model's base, as this isn't considered part of the model.
- Because no part of the model can move further than it's Move value, pivoting on the spot costs movement.
Enemy Models
- If a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it must either remain stationary or retreat. This means that any models in that unit who are not already within 3" of an enemy model (letting them make pile-in moves in the Combat phase) will be stuck where they are and unable to move until the enemy has chewed its way to them.
-- Tactical dying is recommended if you don't want single models tying up whole units.
-- Alternatively, bring missile weapons and fire away (see below) Nevermind, everyone gets to make pile-in moves.
Shooting Phase
- Models in close combat can still shoot with no penalty, either at the unit they are engaged with, or some other unit.
- You can shoot into close combat with no penalty.
Charge Phase
- To successfully charge, you must end up within half an inch of an enemy model. Remember that this is measured model-to-model and NOT base-to-base.
-- If you don't want your models to be charged, have them modeled with their hands behind their backs.
- Yes, you CAN move, shoot with no penalty, charge and fight in melee, all in the same turn.
-- Thus, the most powerful non-character models in the AoS box seem to be the angel guys.
- You can charge models you can't see (ex: around a corner)
- Unless you have a special rule, the charge bonus is extra movement.
Combat Phase
- If you fielded your guys in neat ranks and files, they will probably break formation at this point in order to make their pile-in moves.
- Pile-in moves can leave models who haven't fought yet stranded and unable to fight as they are suddenly more than 3" from their enemies.
Battleshock Phase
- Units of 1 (including characters, who are always alone) are essentially unbreakable.
-- If you bring a pile of single-model units, you never have to worry about Bravery.
- For each ten models you have in the unit, one less guy will die from battleshock.
Attacking
Picking targets
- Melee weapons now have a range, typically 1".
-- If you make sure your models are on bases less than 1" in diameter, you can always attack in two ranks. Does anyone make 24 mm round bases?
Making attacks
- Previously, WS, T and armour made you more difficult to kill. Now it's only armour.
Cover
- You can shoot through woods or other terrain with no penalty.
- A model standing behind a low wall doesn't benefit from cover. A model standing on top of that wall does.
-- For a unit to benefit, they all need to be standing on top of the wall.
More when it comes in
Avian wrote:So I thought I'd check out how the charges actually work, and it turns out that these two models are not within half an inch of each other. In order to make a legal charge, their bases would need over overlap (which is legal, BTW).
Whoa man, that first block of text (spoilered here for length) sounds really bad.
And the image is just nuts. Oh GW, what were you thinking...
Salvage, what are your thoughts at this early stage? Are you thinking of sticking with 8th ed, trying out another ruleset (I'm kind of interested in Darklands), or giving Age of Sigmar a solid go? Maybe all of the above?
Doug, why can't enemy models get within 1/2" of flyers in your example, what am I missing there? Couldn't they just charge them?
Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
I don't think I've seen a flyer thats high enough off the board that it can be more than 1/2' from some part of your model. Maybe the high Elf sky chariot, but most flyers are either mounted on a regular base (dragons) or the regular GW flight stands (terradons and other small fliers). Could be wrong though.
Samurai_Eduh wrote:"If a unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it must either remain stationary or retreat. This means that any models in that unit who are not already within 3" of an enemy model (letting them make pile-in moves in the Combat phase) will be stuck where they are and unable to move until the enemy has chewed its way to them."
Not true, as long as one model in the unit is withing that 3", everyone in the unit can make the pile in move.
Yea, somebody caught that on Warseer too, Avian just didn't update the first post yet.
pretre wrote:
Rihgu wrote: Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
Kinda makes sense in a way.
I am reminded of jumping up and killing flyers and crap with Kharn in 40k, before Gorechild stopped hitting them on 2+
- Salvage
I'm just hoping that new Dwarf Dragon Slayer model is tall enough to reach, so I can join in on the "jumping up and killing flyers" fun!
I don't think I've seen a flyer thats high enough off the board that it can be more than 1/2' from some part of your model. Maybe the high Elf sky chariot, but most flyers are either mounted on a regular base (dragons) or the regular GW flight stands (terradons and other small fliers). Could be wrong though.
The specific example used in the Warseer thread is the High Elf Phoenix model which has a 3" flight stand, making it immune to the vast majority of infantry and monstrous infantry (and created the "invulnerable 3" diameter around the edge of the entire model" zone mentioned above)
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
RiTides wrote: Salvage, what are your thoughts at this early stage? Are you thinking of sticking with 8th ed, trying out another ruleset (I'm kind of interested in Darklands), or giving Age of Sigmar a solid go? Maybe all of the above?
I've actually been intending to give it a solid go, with a shiny new Counts As army and everything, but now I'm dialing that back further and further. Before reading Avian's post I had decided on a Proxy army (i.e. to be used as whatever semi-elite force that vaguely fits the models) on round-lipped bases (so portable to WM/H and generally better looking), however I'm not sure that's even worth the effort, apart from making a cool little army of models I like. Which is fine, I do love me some hobbying, but it's not usually how I go about designing an army, and I'm not sure I'd have the impetus to get it finished ...
... because I don't really see why I'd want to play WHAOS. I'm struggling to see why we should even go to the lengths of reining in WHAOS to a playable semi-competitive format, when there are so many great games out there.
Current Plan: 1) play some 8E, because I've got a shiny new-ish army and I haven't played much this year 2) get my first Malifaux crew painted and see about actually playing it 3) finish up some big dudes for my DoT (on square bases to match the rest) 4) see the state of WHAOS and decide to either begin proxy project or dip into my Malifaux stock and build crew depth
I'll certainly try WHAOS, probably in the very near future, but I'm not seeing why it deserves much of my attention. Simplicity is not an attraction for me with games - Cards Against Humanity, for example, has completely lost its charm with me and my friends due to being just way too simple. I find Malifaux - and Wrath of Kings, which my club KS'd heavily - look to provide very similar experiences to WHAOS, with a whole lot more depth. -----------------------------------------------
Rihgu wrote: I'm just hoping that new Dwarf Dragon Slayer model is tall enough to reach, so I can join in on the "jumping up and killing flyers" fun!
Is there anything to stop you mounting him on like a 1-2" keg or something? It would give him a 4-5" vertical engagement while still being able to punch stuff at his feet. You could even plop him on a 4" mountain of kegs just to intercept cheeky flyers, while being untouchable by ground units.
Right??
- Salvage
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/07/01 15:55:40
Rihgu wrote: Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
Kinda makes sense in a way.
What if you play dwarfs and your army doesn't have spears. Anything that is flying suddenly becomes invunerable?
I don't think I've seen a flyer thats high enough off the board that it can be more than 1/2' from some part of your model. Maybe the high Elf sky chariot, but most flyers are either mounted on a regular base (dragons) or the regular GW flight stands (terradons and other small fliers). Could be wrong though.
The specific example used in the Warseer thread is the High Elf Phoenix model which has a 3" flight stand, making it immune to the vast majority of infantry and monstrous infantry (and created the "invulnerable 3" diameter around the edge of the entire model" zone mentioned above)
I don't think this was thought through very well.
The stand is 3" (hence the 3" flight stand) so as long as no part of the model dips below the stand, then we are looking at a max height of 3"
So How tall is the average model? an inch and a half to 2 inches from foot to head? So all the model would need is a raised sword arm (like most of those sigmarines have. The raised arm and hammer giving them an extra inch or so, they can easily reach the fliers.
On a side note, if I were to ever play this game, I would count bases for formations and such because I'm not going to start overlapping my bases with someone else's, especially if they put a lot of time and detail into their base only to have it marked up and broken because other bases get piled on it.
Rihgu wrote: Can't get in 1/2" of flyers because the flyers are too high off the table and measurement is done from models. Therefore, unless you've got a tall spear, you physically cannot be within 1/2" of the flying model.
Kinda makes sense in a way.
What if you play dwarfs and your army doesn't have spears. Anything that is flying suddenly becomes invunerable?
You don't have spears, but you sure do have a lot of shooting weapons...
I don't think I've seen a flyer thats high enough off the board that it can be more than 1/2' from some part of your model. Maybe the high Elf sky chariot, but most flyers are either mounted on a regular base (dragons) or the regular GW flight stands (terradons and other small fliers). Could be wrong though.
The specific example used in the Warseer thread is the High Elf Phoenix model which has a 3" flight stand, making it immune to the vast majority of infantry and monstrous infantry (and created the "invulnerable 3" diameter around the edge of the entire model" zone mentioned above)
I don't think this was thought through very well.
The stand is 3" (hence the 3" flight stand) so as long as no part of the model dips below the stand, then we are looking at a max height of 3"
So How tall is the average model? an inch and a half to 2 inches from foot to head? So all the model would need is a raised sword arm (like most of those sigmarines have. The raised arm and hammer giving them an extra inch or so, they can easily reach the fliers.
On a side note, if I were to ever play this game, I would count bases for formations and such because I'm not going to start overlapping my bases with someone else's, especially if they put a lot of time and detail into their base only to have it marked up and broken because other bases get piled on it.
Most of the infantry models seen so far (and most WHFB infantry models I've seen in general) take up almost all of thier base. Unless you are using bases bigger than what most models are packed with, I don't forsee the overlapping bases thing even being an issue.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/01 16:22:07
Dark Lord Seanron wrote: I'm still a bit concerned about the lack of points or balancing rules here? It's literally play as much as you like?
Isn't there vicotry rules for outnumbering your opponent? Horde armies are going to chew that up surely?
Ha! Maybe they figured since they can't write balanced rules they figured "Well if you don't think the game's balance, then just bring more models, that'll balance it!" LOL
Dark Lord Seanron wrote: I'm still a bit concerned about the lack of points or balancing rules here? It's literally play as much as you like?
Let's say for now that no points are going to be on the upcoming warscroll dump that covers the existing range of models. I feel this will be the case but there are still those holding out hope.
Next, let's say there's no limit on number of warscrolls either. The feeling is that scenarios will somehow limit overall number of 'scrolls, which makes sense to me as well, but we haven't seen a scenario yet, so won't know until we do. Word is those are in the 96-page book in the starter, along with background.
With no points and unlimited warscrolls (and no factions truly limiting you), yep, sure looks like you could literally play with as many and whatever models you want to. In this vacuum (of unlimited 'scrolls), the deciding factor of how many models are in a game looks like it'll be decided in two steps. When deploying, you take it in turns to deploy units, until one player has decided they're done deploying (or run out of space). That's step one. Next, the other player can continue deploying until they decide they're good.
The caveat here is the Sudden Death rule. If one side has a third more models than the other, than the smaller army can choose an extra victory condition, apart from just wiping out the enemy army entirely. Having two victory conditions, one of which results in an immediate major victory, is clearly awesome.
Therefore, the second player will often want to stop deploying when they hit 133% of the enemy model count - in other words, a fraction shy of a third larger. This way they have a bonus in models over the first player, without providing Sudden Death possibilities. That, or they take sooooo many models to ensure they can table the enemy army without being tabled or Sudden Deathed first.
So that appears to be how armies actually amass. It's pretty clear how to put some control on the process - set a min and max model count, for starters - but those aren't in the RAW.
Isn't there vicotry rules for outnumbering your opponent? Horde armies are going to chew that up surely?
If you take the above deployment process - stopping when you've got the smallest number of nasty models on the table - and combine it with a few other rules (the Battleshock rules in particular), it's pretty clear that WAOS favors elite armies of units made up of single models. This is where limits on the number of warscrolls could / will help control how min/maxed armies are. For example, given the option and unlimited 'scrolls, it seems like you should always take units of 1, where that single model looks to often be a free champ (as well as immune to Battleshock, etc). Synergy effects - command abilities that affect 1 unit for example, not all units or models within X" - will do some to reign in this spamming too, but we've seen very few examples of keyword synergy effects thus far.
- Salvage
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/07/01 17:17:51
These sound.......bad......realy really bad.
Like really bad.
time to make my tentacle themed army that has tentacles streching from one end of the table to aqnother
Isn't there vicotry rules for outnumbering your opponent? Horde armies are going to chew that up surely?
If you take the above deployment process - stopping when you've got the smallest number of nasty models on the table - and combine it with a few other rules (the Battleshock rules in particular), it's pretty clear that WAOS favors elite armies of units made up of single models. This is where limits on the number of warscrolls could / will help control how min/maxed armies are. For example, given the option and unlimited 'scrolls, it seems like you should always take units of 1, where that single model looks to often be a free champ (as well as immune to Battleshock, etc). Synergy effects - command abilities that affect 1 unit for example, not all units or models within X" - will do some to reign in this spamming too, but we've seen very few examples of keyword synergy effects thus far.
- Salvage
Wouldn't be so sure about the units of 1, it looks like the ward saves are gone as well, and single model units could be easily brought down with a few sorcerers casting the bolt spell, D3 automatic wounds on a single model will destroy single model units, other spells or special weapons with mortal wound rule could prevent heroes only "armies"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/01 18:00:55
But so far it doesn't seem to matter if a unit dies, as only models matter. Right? There's no kill points or something suggesting otherwise. Victory conditions, Sudden Death, all these things only care about models. Even the bolt you referenced only zaps one model - so whether that model is in a unit of 1 or 20, just that model is affected. If he dies, so be it - there are dozens more single model units like him roving around.
On the flipside, more units of fewer models seem to benefit from the rules in various ways. A complete 180 from 8E, where the rules definitely benefit fewer units of more models, again in a variety of ways.
Again, it's gotta be either warscroll limitations or whole unit synergy effects that give more impetus to running larger units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bam! Formations give us reasons to field units of more than one:
(Because units within the formation gain an advantage, and you can't add units within the formation, just models within the units that allow it.)
- Salvage
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/01 19:04:08
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