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I am a longtime lurker and very occasional poster on my favourite tabletop wargames - 40k followed by WHFB.

I have reserved my feelings regarding the death of WHFB (which I got into as a 12 year old) for a long time since the rumours surrounding the Age of Sigmar started appearing and eventually became reality. Even with the launch of the boxed set for AoS and the warscrolls, I continued to be optimistic - this could not be it. This could not be what GW leaves us with, particularly players who do not have a regular playgroup and look for pick up games. Surely there would be some ability to balance for this at some stage... usually the guys at Warhammer World can come up with something usable. I mean these were the guys who came up with a useful campaign ruleset for Killteam on their own.

Now I have seen the latest on the planned Age of Sigmar event on the Warhammer World event website which absolutely boggles the mind.

"The amount of time you have to play the game is the only real restriction so bring whatever you think would get you a great game in that time." This is ridiculous. Seriously. This is a complete abdication of the business' ability or want to balance the game.

I am even more alarmed by what they are doing for the Horus Heresy campaign weekend. The choice is 2000 points BUT there is no upper limit. It entirely depends on a nebulous restriction around what you think you can do within the time allotted per game. Seriously?!?!

I don't mind that the events are now basically marketing campaigns for the GW's games and are driven by favourite game votes. I GET it. You want sportsmanship to drive who WINS these events. I buy that. Horses for courses. But this latest development is ridiculous. I have seen the rumours that have been flagged on Natfka and by Hastings on how 40k may be Age of Sigmar'd. The fact that they are doing these events for AoS and also something similar for Horus Heresy is making me scared for my favourite game 40k. I dont want some ridiculous crap being pushed onto me by a games company that cannot be bothered with writing rules and leaves us to make it up on the fly. This is our chance to take a stand. Do NOT attend these events. There will always be guys buying the models but we need to send a message. It stops here - please do not mess with our 40k game. I have already lost WHFB - I DONT want to lose 40k.

Look some people will think I am alarmist. Some people will think that I have written a great crazy wall of text. Please be willing to digest what I have written. I am open to your views. I am just afraid of where GW is going with 40k. This is relevant to everyone who loves the 40k game as it is even if you are not in the UK and find it logistically to attend events at Nottingham. In that case highlight your views to the events team at Warhammer World. It's a drop of water but every drop counts. This is different to the usual threads where you convince people to "boycott" buying models - you cant reach the entire communnity easily. But people who go to events? Thats us. Thats why we need to open our mouths and vote with our wallets or an email. This may be the start of Age of Sigmarification for 40k and it is up us to do something about it.

Wait...the Horus Heresy event is a nebulous "2000+, dependent on time"?

Wow that's awful.

EDIT ok, here's what the event pack says.
http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/Horus-Heresy-Throne-of-Skulls-1.pdf

"At this event, the minimum size army you should bring
is 2,000 points, but, if you happen to have more than that,
bring it along and if your opponents are up for it, you
can play a larger game. In general, you should expect to
play 2,000 point games, and anything larger than that is
a bonus - there is no upper limit so feel free to bring as
much as you like, the only restriction is the amount of
time you have to play the game. "

So it looks like it's a more "play 2K, if both you and your opponent want to play 2.5K, you can play that". Not quite as bad, but still pretty wonky for a tournament.

You're taking a joke seriously.

The joke being Warhammer World Tournaments.

Noone takes GW tournaments seriously. A GW tournament without a rules pack? Yeah...no.

We need to be very careful with this. Warhammer World events after the refit look to be promoting the way that GW wants the games to be played.

The AoS event is a very good example of this. It is similar to the HH event in that you bring whatever you want but you and the opponent decide how many points you want to play...

Sounds familiar? I mean its one thing doing it for a game with friends you know well but in a campaign event / "tournament" where time is scarce? You already spend so much time determining mission objectives, explaining what your units do, etc. etc. now you have to negotiate points and what you bring to the table... This speaks to a trend that GW is heading with its products - i.e. selling premium toys with rules as incidental.

The HH event is one way to trial whether this works for 40k. AoS in itself is a trial for how 40k can go. So, please take it seriously.

Sigvatr there is a rules pack for the throne of skulls tournaments - they've just deteriorated after the warhammer world refit.

AoS indications of the rulespack link - http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/2015/08/01/age-of-sigmar-the-battle-for-the-realmgates-what-should-i-bring/
HH event - http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/2015/08/01/throne-of-skulls-the-horus-heresy/

First time this method is being trialled for a 40k style event.

Aye, old GW tournaments also had rulepacks. Slim ones, but they had ones. That was old GW though.

40k has already been Sigmar'd over the last decade, but it was so gradual that most people only caught on when Unbound dropped. There's nothing there worth saving, just like there wasn't in WHFB.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
40k has already been Sigmar'd over the last decade, but it was so gradual that most people only caught on when Unbound dropped. There's nothing there worth saving, just like there wasn't in WHFB.

True. Sad, but true.
:-(

I wonder if all those HH sprues will actually make an Age of Sigmar style game for 30k. If it sells well... then the next version of 40k will get the full on AoS treatment as well.

In the grim darkness of the near future, there is only bad rules.

I'm actually quite sure it will be. The clues are in the latest financials.

I know that I'll probably get hate for saying this, but I hope that 40k gets Age of Sigmar'd, it would certainly be an improvement over the current rules set.

I agree ! Having a blast with AOS with the rules from the play test groups here. Less GW has to do with rules the better. War Scrolls and loose rules are free so why complain? Forge your own narrative!

It's a sad state of affairs. The depth of the AoS isnt there. It will be fun for awhile but to me any initial "new game" shine wears out and what will be left - a shell of a once glorious game.

Um, wasn't WFB 40k'd though? Like, it seems like they went ahead and made WFB more like 40k, by turning it into AoS. And honestly it doesn't seem like you're the only one worried about them making 40k more like AoS...

So they took a game, made it more like the other, and now you're afraid they're gonna make the other more like the first?

It's funny how competitive people get in response to GWs attitude against overly competitive play.

Nidzrule! wrote:
It stops here - please do not mess with our 40k game. I have already lost WHFB - I DONT want to lose 40k.

I mean, they're the ones who made the game and lore to begin with, and they encourage us to make it as much our own as possible. I've considered what you wrote, and it does seem rather alarmist.

 pax macharia wrote:
So they took a game, made it more like the other, and now you're afraid they're gonna make the other more like the first?

This statement isn't what was stated, even by the title... obviously, he's afraid that GW will make 40k more like the new fantasy (Age of Sigmar) not like the old fantasy (or "the first" as you say above).

Just pointing that out... but yeah, I think the writing is on the wall and I am definitely not investing in GW systems now - the rules turnover rate is insane, and fixing that by just throwing out the rules and making a sandbox-type system doesn't seem like a good solution, either. There are lots of other wargames and those are getting my attention now (Hordes, Guildball, Kings of War, the Halo Fleet game... and I'll use my 40k stuff for Space Hulk, which has great rules ).

Rather than boycott an event or sitting there wishing GW would change for you, just move on. There's plenty of other games out there so you should be able to find something you like.

 RiTides wrote:

 pax macharia wrote:
So they took a game, made it more like the other, and now you're afraid they're gonna make the other more like the first?

This statement isn't what was stated, even by the title... obviously, he's afraid that GW will make 40k more like the new fantasy (Age of Sigmar) not like the old fantasy (or "the first" as you say above).

Just pointing that out... but yeah, I think the writing is on the wall and I am definitely not investing in GW systems now - the rules turnover rate is insane, and fixing that by just throwing out the rules and making a sandbox-type system doesn't seem like a good solution, either. There are lots of other wargames and those are getting my attention now (Hordes, Guildball, Kings of War, the Halo Fleet game... and I'll use my 40k stuff for Space Hulk, which has great rules ).

I feel that way as well, this is a shame as my first army is just now being finished haha.

Every unit has rules people keep making stuff up. The problem is AoS don't have point costs. Horus heresy has point costs there is no problem. Even removing point costs is fine if they had an army building mechanic built in. Either a narrative scenario format such as the Conan board game or balance the units against each other in some way. But to claim there is no rules is patently false.

I think there may be a difference between the Horus Heresy game FW produces through its rule volumes, and a entryway 40(30)k game that GW would make.

Been invested in the game since I was 12...

I am not wedded to a points balancing mechanic. I would just like a balancing mechanic that makes sense.

AoS clearly has gone down the tubes in that respect - there are rules for each unit but without a mechanic that is close to working, it makes an event hard to play. I am not a "competitive" player - I just want good balance. Think about what happens when you turn up at the event and you have to negotiate what makes a good game on the spot within a 2 to 2.5 hour time limit. If you get it wrong, then you or your opponent gets a bad game. Is it impossible to get a good game? Of course not. But the onus is entirely put on the players - and if doesnt work out, the implication is that someone's been a bad sport...

Now they plan to do something similar for HH. Play a minimum of 2,000 points. But if you can agree to go above why not?

This style of play works between 2 mature adults that know each other well and are invested in making a game fun as well as having a ton of time available to play the game. How does this even work for an event where the draws are random? Anyway, horses for courses. We will ultimately see what the final impact is in terms of attendance. ToSs have dropped in attendance since recent years - remains to be seen whether the trend continues.

We should not be apathetic to the situation or support it. Nothing so dramatic as a "CALL TO ARMS!" but at least voice our opinion especially if we can see the writing on the wall. It's like watching a crash about to occur in slow motion...

Why is the hh 2k such a problem? You go in with your 2k list, but also a 2250, 2500, 3k etc all written out. You tell your opponent what points you've written lists for, he does the same, and you know where you are after a 15 second conversation. If they haven't written up additional lists, you save time by just sticking to 2k. Doesn't need to be a drag.

I've never yet played in a WHW event, but I've been there when they were going on, and the atmosphere and attitudes that they cultivate are what has encouraged me to participate in one coming up.
The time/points variable is probably so that in future FW can gauge what points to set their HH events at, due to their lesser frequency, and the players not getting to field their gear at tournies as often. The event packs for 40K tournaments specifically preclude HH gear. They didn't specifically used to.

I don't see how you can object to a variable army list amongst games that are played for fellowship. There are things to object to - the entry price, the strict modelling rules, etc. but this feels a very odd point to object to.

The fact is the attendance at these events is not much more than the average weekend at WHW, plus the people playing are not there to buy anything, and they physically and mentally block access to the stores for regular customers. Boycotting these events will not hit GW in the pocket. The events already do that in themselves.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
40k has already been Sigmar'd over the last decade, but it was so gradual that most people only caught on when Unbound dropped. There's nothing there worth saving, just like there wasn't in WHFB.

And "unbound" was just a re-branding of Apoc, getting rid of the association that it needs to be a "large game" to throw out army construction rules, use formations and willy-nilly allies.

It's been around forever.

Easy 4 me, I live across the pond and if I was going to fly to the UK, it would be for HWGs DzC.

I think the issue here is that (certainly within my gaming circle) there isn't really a current standard points limit for HH players right now.

In the fact that for 40K the standard seems to be set at 1850pts.

Heresy games for the most part are played at 2000pts but also at 3000pts if people have Primarchs, Knights etc.

It's not as easy to do HH pick up games because of this so we do a very similar thing to what Warhammer World are doing which is bring 2000pts but also be prepared to play more.

I have no issue with this, it's how a lot of people play Heresy games and I think to be honest it gives players more autonomy to decide the level and type of game they wish to play at an organised event.

AoS is a bit different but let's not forget it's a game that's still in transition - eventually when the range is complete and everything is updated it will probably be more balanced but for the time being people are having to make do with their old WHFB armies.

Let's also not forget that GW events at Warhammer World are not tournaments. They are organised narrative events designed to get players to have a fun day out. GW moved away from competetive style events a while ago because they weren't the style of play they wanted to promote.

I understand that's not everybody's cup of tea but I have to admit I much prefer the new format, fun events as opposed to competetive style play.

I think rather than boycotting these type of events try to organise your own - if you want tournament style play though I don't think GW systems are the right choice any more.

I doubt you'll get enough people to agree to boycott to make any impact. A better idea would be to actually go to the tournament with a few like-minded people and show what is wrong. If something is broken or open to abuse then go there and abuse it.

EDITED: for my own sanity.

The AoS campaign event - and I have tried to be careful using terms like event - has very broad guidelines as to what you are supposed to bring. Like another poster has mentioned in another post, its the equivalent of Calvinball. However, it is a game that best benefits those who have the largest collections and the logistical fortitude to bring it to Warhammer World.

The HH method of 2000 points and then bring what you want and agree up to 3000 points and above is a step in that direction.

One poster mentioned writing lists at every 250pt chunk above 2000pts. So I come up with FIVE army lists, print these out and have to do some on the spot math if someone has decided, well within his rights, to play with what he has and therefore decides to do 2180? Any problems with the math - i.e. 30 pts missed out - hey whatever man. Its ok. Its only a game.

These proposals look good on paper, they feel as if they should work out because I've been playing with individuals I know well for a long period of time AND also have a social contract where everyone knows the baseline for fun and for what's not fun. If the event turns up to be unfulfilling, its a lot of money spent on transport, event cost, food and drink.

No one likes a Cassandra but I feel that we are moving in that direction. If any of the above posters do go, please do provide a short summary of how it went as well as attendance rates. I've been looking at ToS attendance rates and these have reduced.

 Smacks wrote:
I doubt you'll get enough people to agree to boycott to make any impact. A better idea would be to actually go to the tournament with a few like-minded people and demonstrate what's wrong. If something is broken or open to abuse then go there and abuse it.

So you'd spoil other people's fun just to vindicate your internet-crusade?

What's wrong with playing what you think is fun for yoruself and staying away from the things you don't enjoy, leaving it to the people that do?

Wonderwolf - I know you are replying to a different poster. Just an additional comment.

I don't want to ruin anyone's fun at these events as I've always said horses for courses.

I am just afraid that with the trend in rulespack writing - the AoS syndrome affects 40k. If the Warhammer World team catered for other types of events, i.e. more structured then I'd be less worried but they appear to be running events that are becoming more and more unstructured...

@Nidzrule!

True, but inversely events like Adepticon, Games Expo, etc.., indeed most organised gaming events out there all run exclusively structured and competitive events.

Even if Warhammer World is exclusively doing these unstructured events, their events are still a great minority overall. Fans of structured, competitive events still have a vastly superior choice of events to attend, especially outside the UK, compared to fans of the kind of events Warhammer World is now experimenting with.

The thing people seem to be missing is...AoS is going to sell like crap. The models look derpy, the rules are just...too simple. Its a gateway game. To what you ask? Well, what's coming out in the next year or so?

Total war: Warhammer. Have you any idea how much exposure that game is going to bring? And what currently would it expose; a relatively easy to pick up model game thats got a reasonable buy in price. But its small scale? Not meshing well with the total ethos of total war? Well that's why I believe AoS is being set up for a War of the Ring style expansion (why do they still sell minis on square bases if its a skirmish game without unit cohesion?)

But onto 40k, I think we can all agree that 7th ed should really have been called 6th.5 IT STREAMLINED every expansion (unbound = apocalypse). 7th is the AoS of 40k and guess what? It works rather well.

Anyway to sum up for those who skipped:
- Age of Sigmar is going to sell badly
- 40k is GW's cash cow so reducing the number of models per battle would destroy sales
- Age of Sigmar is a gateway game; 9th ed will be along some time in the next year or so.