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 TheAuldGrump wrote:
If GW had offered Chapterhouse the wheelbarrow full of money that they have paid their lawyers - just to close up shop and walk away - the money would have been spent to greater effect. (One difference between GW and TSR - settling out of court and paying out sums to the folks that they were suing was their way of handling things.)

The Auld Grump

Strap on a ridiculous NDA, pay enough to get a joint public statement, scare the crap out of the market. That would have been a way to spend the money effectively. But, GW was on a crusade. And crusaders are not rational. You can't rationalize with someone who is being irrational.

weeble1000 wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
If GW had offered Chapterhouse the wheelbarrow full of money that they have paid their lawyers - just to close up shop and walk away - the money would have been spent to greater effect. (One difference between GW and TSR - settling out of court and paying out sums to the folks that they were suing was their way of handling things.)

The Auld Grump

Strap on a ridiculous NDA, pay enough to get a joint public statement, scare the crap out of the market. That would have been a way to spend the money effectively. But, GW was on a crusade. And crusaders are not rational. You can't rationalize with someone who is being irrational.

I can only imagine that GW's legal team is now frantically trying to get CHS to accept a settlement with just such a ridiculous NDA, whatever the other terms of the offer are. No attorney worth his or her bar membership could possibly be advocating taking this stinker of a case through another round of appeals or, God forbid, retrial (assuming the appellate bench remands it for such).

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
If GW had offered Chapterhouse the wheelbarrow full of money that they have paid their lawyers - just to close up shop and walk away - the money would have been spent to greater effect. (One difference between GW and TSR - settling out of court and paying out sums to the folks that they were suing was their way of handling things.)

The Auld Grump

But that wouldn't have had the desired effect... IP is GW's "Fortress Wall". Just paying someone to go away wouldn't've strengthened that Wall per se and, in fact, would have arguably weakened it.

More to the point, GW had absolutely no expectation that the Chapterhouse affair would have gone any different than any of the other times they threw their weight around with the possiblity of litigation. If CH didn't get pro bono help, CH more or less has to fold, GW'sability to use the threat of litigation as a Fortress Wall would have remained, and that would be that.

Instead, Kirby is left sputtering impotently about how he wasted a lot of shareholder money because the legal system just isn't up to snuff... Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!

Valete,

JohnS

I agree with that point.

Until Chapter House, Games Workshop had successfully scared off any apparent incursions on their claimed IP. An NDA based pay-off would have been an admission that the wall was weak enough not to be a solid legal defence in court.

The "Fortress Wall" actually was always made of stage scenery but no-one realised it until Chapter House stood up for their rights (and everyone else's too, let's be clear...)

You guys are missing the point.

Nobody would know it was an NDA payoff. And, per se, paying someone off does amount to successful IP enforcement, which does strengthen one's marks.

For all we would know (in this hypothetical), Chapterhouse Studios would have gone out of business, Nick would have publicly admitted to infringing GW's IP, and GW would have ridden the wave and thrown a lawsuit someone else.

We could have speculated that it was a payoff, but those "white knights" you were mentioning would have drowned out any speculation by screeching "I told you so!" "GW won!" "Chapterhouse is a thief!" "Nick got what he deserved!"

Case in point: Games Workshop v Curse

Remember that? Probably not. But it happened less than a year before GW v CHS. If you look at the record in that case, to an experienced eye it is crystal clear how that lawsuit went down. Curse retained counsel, never answered the complaint, and filed for extensions for time to answer until both parties jointly motioned to dismiss the case 6 months later.

I actually called Curse to ask abut the lawsuit a few months after it went down and got a really nervous "I can't talk about it" right before a hangup without a goodbye. GW scared the crap out of Curse, bullied them into some kind of settlement, and got a firm, discourse murdering NDA attached to it.

Case in point: Paulson Games (sorry Jon, putting you on the spot again. No offense intended.)

GW sued Paulson Games, Jon was able to line up pro-bono representation after showing up to court in sneakers, and a few months later Paulson Games was out of the case, GW issued a generic shareholder statement about successfully defending its IP, and Jon (again, no offense intended) was gunshy about discussing the case and eventually switched gears to his (fething awesome!) Mecha Front line, which is about as far away from GW as you can go and still be making sci-fi miniatures.

All we could do at the time was pour over the Paulson Games website, examine the Way Back Machine, and guestimate what the settlement with GW might have impacted. And GW didn't even pay Paulson Games to close its doors entirely and publicly admit to infringement.

The point of all this is to stress that, whatever else Chapterhouse Studios or Nick Villacci is, the defendant stuck through years and years of contentious litigation and is, for the best of our knowledge, still sticking with it. As a result, we have had an unprecedented window into GW, we have, as a community, had a huge opportunity to give the discussion of intellectual property rights the serious and public treatment it deserves, and we saw the rapidly accelerating pace and severity of GW's IP enforcement stopped dead in its tracks.

Thank goodness GW was too stupid to pay off Chapterhouse and/or that Chapterhouse was/is principled enough to stay the course.

I think the Curse case was with different head counsel at GW and it would take an absolute moron at GW to think they would have looked anything but utter gack in pulling someone into a case who had no reason to be there (i.e. he had nothing to do with any of the alleged infringement).

GW lead counsel weren't smart but she wasn't dumb enough to think they could peg an infringement on Paulson for a model he never touched.

 agnosto wrote:
I think the Curse case was with different head counsel at GW and it would take an absolute moron at GW to think they would have looked anything but utter gack in pulling someone into a case who had no reason to be there (i.e. he had nothing to do with any of the alleged infringement).

GW lead counsel weren't smart but she wasn't dumb enough to think they could peg an infringement on Paulson for a model he never touched.

Sure she was.

Paulson got out because Judge Kennelly wanted him out. But even then Stevenson decided to fry him as much as possible before she let go of him. GW made Paulson Games kiss the ring, and the company had to take down plenty of products as part of the settlement, unless Jon spontaneously decided to stop selling not-Tyranid bone swords...just 'cause...immediately after Paulson Games was removed from the case.

Paulson Games was producing aftermarket parts for GW products, and GW's stance throughout the entirety of the litigation, up to and including as I type this post, is that any product sold for use with or in any way compatible with a GW product is somehow an infringement of...something...owned by GW.

If I recall correctly, GW even said in its investor statement about the settlement with Paulson Games that products were removed from sale.

GW literally, and I do mean literally accused a non-existent Chapterhouse Studios product of infringement for three goddamn years. Four out of the five elements GW accused the Chapterhouse Studios Tervigon Conversion Kit of copying were, again, literally parts from the GW Carnifex model kit.

'As you can clearly see Judge, those legs there look exactly like the legs from our Carnifex product!'

Yes, Gill Stevenson was stupid enough.

weeble1000 wrote:
You guys are missing the point.

Nobody would know it was an NDA payoff. And, per se, paying someone off does amount to successful IP enforcement, which does strengthen one's marks.

[...and some other good points]

Those're all fair points. I was keying more on the "pay them to go away" part of things. I have no doubt that any GW bullying would include a stern NDA about anything that didn't spin the narrative GW's way. And I wasn't really thinking in terms of the strictly *legal* aspect of the marks. I was thinking in terms of the psychological aspects of GW trying to chase away any potential rivals. If word got out that GW was *paying* people to go away, that would (legal arguments aside) weaken their ability to bully other potential entrants. Or at least I'd have to think it would.

But in the end, it's moot. GW clearly didn't think the CH case was going to go down like it did. And I don't think *anyone* can argue that it's been anything other than a disaster (financially as Kirby admitted, legally with so much of the Fortress now in tatters, or in PR terms with all the ill will its generated).

Valete,

JohnS

weeble1000 wrote:


Sure she was.

Spoiler:

Paulson got out because Judge Kennelly wanted him out. But even then Stevenson decided to fry him as much as possible before she let go of him. GW made Paulson Games kiss the ring, and the company had to take down plenty of products as part of the settlement, unless Jon spontaneously decided to stop selling not-Tyranid bone swords...just 'cause...immediately after Paulson Games was removed from the case.

Paulson Games was producing aftermarket parts for GW products, and GW's stance throughout the entirety of the litigation, up to and including as I type this post, is that any product sold for use with or in any way compatible with a GW product is somehow an infringement of...something...owned by GW.

If I recall correctly, GW even said in its investor statement about the settlement with Paulson Games that products were removed from sale.

GW literally, and I do mean literally accused a non-existent Chapterhouse Studios product of infringement for three goddamn years. Four out of the five elements GW accused the Chapterhouse Studios Tervigon Conversion Kit of copying were, again, literally parts from the GW Carnifex model kit.

'As you can clearly see Judge, those legs there look exactly like the legs from our Carnifex product!'

Yes, Gill Stevenson was stupid enough.

I stand, or sit in this case, corrected.

weeble1000 wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
I think the Curse case was with different head counsel at GW and it would take an absolute moron at GW to think they would have looked anything but utter gack in pulling someone into a case who had no reason to be there (i.e. he had nothing to do with any of the alleged infringement).

GW lead counsel weren't smart but she wasn't dumb enough to think they could peg an infringement on Paulson for a model he never touched.

Sure she was.

Paulson got out because Judge Kennelly wanted him out. But even then Stevenson decided to fry him as much as possible before she let go of him. GW made Paulson Games kiss the ring, and the company had to take down plenty of products as part of the settlement, unless Jon spontaneously decided to stop selling not-Tyranid bone swords...just 'cause...immediately after Paulson Games was removed from the case.

Paulson Games was producing aftermarket parts for GW products, and GW's stance throughout the entirety of the litigation, up to and including as I type this post, is that any product sold for use with or in any way compatible with a GW product is somehow an infringement of...something...owned by GW.

If I recall correctly, GW even said in its investor statement about the settlement with Paulson Games that products were removed from sale.

GW literally, and I do mean literally accused a non-existent Chapterhouse Studios product of infringement for three goddamn years. Four out of the five elements GW accused the Chapterhouse Studios Tervigon Conversion Kit of copying were, again, literally parts from the GW Carnifex model kit.

'As you can clearly see Judge, those legs there look exactly like the legs from our Carnifex product!'

Yes, Gill Stevenson was stupid enough.

I feel like I need to go back and reread the first hundred pages of this, I don't remember any of that.

weeble1000 wrote:
You guys are missing the point.

Nobody would know it was an NDA payoff. And, per se, paying someone off does amount to successful IP enforcement, which does strengthen one's marks.

For all we would know (in this hypothetical), Chapterhouse Studios would have gone out of business, Nick would have publicly admitted to infringing GW's IP, and GW would have ridden the wave and thrown a lawsuit someone else.

We could have speculated that it was a payoff, but those "white knights" you were mentioning would have drowned out any speculation by screeching "I told you so!" "GW won!" "Chapterhouse is a thief!" "Nick got what he deserved!"

Case in point: Games Workshop v Curse

Remember that? Probably not. But it happened less than a year before GW v CHS. If you look at the record in that case, to an experienced eye it is crystal clear how that lawsuit went down. Curse retained counsel, never answered the complaint, and filed for extensions for time to answer until both parties jointly motioned to dismiss the case 6 months later.

I actually called Curse to ask abut the lawsuit a few months after it went down and got a really nervous "I can't talk about it" right before a hangup without a goodbye. GW scared the crap out of Curse, bullied them into some kind of settlement, and got a firm, discourse murdering NDA attached to it.

Case in point: Paulson Games (sorry Jon, putting you on the spot again. No offense intended.)

GW sued Paulson Games, Jon was able to line up pro-bono representation after showing up to court in sneakers, and a few months later Paulson Games was out of the case, GW issued a generic shareholder statement about successfully defending its IP, and Jon (again, no offense intended) was gunshy about discussing the case and eventually switched gears to his (fething awesome!) Mecha Front line, which is about as far away from GW as you can go and still be making sci-fi miniatures.

All we could do at the time was pour over the Paulson Games website, examine the Way Back Machine, and guestimate what the settlement with GW might have impacted. And GW didn't even pay Paulson Games to close its doors entirely and publicly admit to infringement.

The point of all this is to stress that, whatever else Chapterhouse Studios or Nick Villacci is, the defendant stuck through years and years of contentious litigation and is, for the best of our knowledge, still sticking with it. As a result, we have had an unprecedented window into GW, we have, as a community, had a huge opportunity to give the discussion of intellectual property rights the serious and public treatment it deserves, and we saw the rapidly accelerating pace and severity of GW's IP enforcement stopped dead in its tracks.

Thank goodness GW was too stupid to pay off Chapterhouse and/or that Chapterhouse was/is principled enough to stay the course.

And, for that matter, thank goodness for the legal firms that jumped on board to help Chapterhouse in this matter.

Lawyers seldom get the praise they deserve when they go beyond the call of everyday practice in order to help shape the law.

This is one of those times when they deserve the praise.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
And, for that matter, thank goodness for the legal firms that jumped on board to help Chapterhouse in this matter.

Lawyers seldom get the praise they deserve when they go beyond the call of everyday practice in order to help shape the law.

This is one of those times when they deserve the praise.

The Auld Grump

And what is particularly interesting about this case is that the pro-bono support was rather unprecedented.

Pro-bono representation in civil cases is rare in itself. Now, kudos to Lawyers for the Creative Arts in Chicago (and many thanks to Marci Rolnik), who work to provide legal assistance to creative artists of all stripes, which when contentious most often involves civil matters.

However, (civil case) pro-bono representation of a client that is not technically indigent is exceedingly rare. Chapterhouse Studios was and is a profit-making business. This technically means that it has money to hire its own lawyers...for about month...in years long litigation...that cost millions upon millions of dollars to litigate...against a world-wide corporation dominating its niche market with hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue per year.

Fun fact: Games Workshop spent more money making copies just for the trial itself than Chapterhouse's highest year over year revenue.

But despite the broader context of the case, Chapterhouse Studios is not an indigent defendant on its face. Considering this, the fact that Winston and Strawn, and later Marshall, Gerstein, and Borun, and later WilmerHale nevertheless chose to represent Chapterhouse Studios pro-bono is, as I said, unprecedented.

That representation alone makes the case very significant, even in the broad context of all civil litigation in the United States. Chapterhouse Studios got help because the complaint was intolerable on its face and because the disparity between the parties meant that a manifest injustice would otherwise have resulted. The pro-bono representation of Chapterhouse Studios is now something of a model that makes it easier for other defendants in similar circumstances to receive desperately needed pro-bono support.

That is a really big deal.

In other words, it really was...great news!

As always, thanks for the summary and opinion weeble!

 Alpharius wrote:
In other words, it really was...great news!

As always, thanks for the summary and opinion weeble!

You're missing my poster though Alph.

weeble1000 wrote:
GW made Paulson Games kiss the ring, and the company had to take down plenty of products as part of the settlement, unless Jon spontaneously decided to stop selling not-Tyranid bone swords...

And the best lash whips out there. I'm still pissed at not being able to buy more of them....

T

timd wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
GW made Paulson Games kiss the ring, and the company had to take down plenty of products as part of the settlement, unless Jon spontaneously decided to stop selling not-Tyranid bone swords...

And the best lash whips out there. I'm still pissed at not being able to buy more of them....

T

As Jon has proven with both his bits business and now Mecha Front, he can make a bitchin' line of miniatures!

Imagine all the great projects that never even got started because someone was too afraid that they would stomped on, regardless of the legitimacy, or lack thereof, of the allegations.

so, they sell their stuff as GW conversion products, get sued, they cry lack of evidence? this gak is going to make GW more paranoid, only hurting us in the long run

 Brennonjw wrote:
so, they sell their stuff as GW conversion products, get sued, they cry lack of evidence? this gak is going to make GW more paranoid, only hurting us in the long run

I'd suggest you actually read the thread before coming in and making that kind of statement. They didn't cry that there was a lack of evidence. There flat out was a lack of evidence. GW didn't have the trademarks it claimed it did.

By all means GW can get more paranoid. What they cannot do, however, is continue to threaten legal action against small companies without actually having any knowledge of IP law, possession of any trademarks etc. as they will lose and lose hard.

Which is good for everyone as it means more small companies can make products which people want without fear of a lawsuit with no merits crippling them with legal costs.

 Brennonjw wrote:
so, they sell their stuff as GW conversion products, get sued, they cry lack of evidence? this gak is going to make GW more paranoid, only hurting us in the long run

Company loses lawsuit and hurts the customers as a result? And you support this company? with money?

 Brennonjw wrote:
so, they sell their stuff as GW conversion products, get sued, they cry lack of evidence? this gak is going to make GW more paranoid, only hurting us in the long run

Either you're trolling, or you somehow missed nearly 300 pages of quality discussion of the merits and implications, first of the lawsuit and then of the ruling & aftermath. In either case, drop it.

weeble1000 wrote:

Sure she was.

Paulson got out because Judge Kennelly wanted him out. But even then Stevenson decided to fry him as much as possible before she let go of him. GW made Paulson Games kiss the ring, and the company had to take down plenty of products as part of the settlement, unless Jon spontaneously decided to stop selling not-Tyranid bone swords...just 'cause...immediately after Paulson Games was removed from the case.

Paulson Games was producing aftermarket parts for GW products, and GW's stance throughout the entirety of the litigation, up to and including as I type this post, is that any product sold for use with or in any way compatible with a GW product is somehow an infringement of...something...owned by GW.

If I recall correctly, GW even said in its investor statement about the settlement with Paulson Games that products were removed from sale.

GW literally, and I do mean literally accused a non-existent Chapterhouse Studios product of infringement for three goddamn years. Four out of the five elements GW accused the Chapterhouse Studios Tervigon Conversion Kit of copying were, again, literally parts from the GW Carnifex model kit.

'As you can clearly see Judge, those legs there look exactly like the legs from our Carnifex product!'

Yes, Gill Stevenson was stupid enough.

I wouldn't call it kissing the ring, but meh. The original bonesword design were taken down but later on I released a new sculpt under the bio-sword name, and if I venture back into parts making I'm still free to sell those (the market on those has kind of dried up though). I've also resculpted and replaced various items in my range several times, as I updated the design or made a better 3d print, or changes to acomidate the casting. (my railguns for instance are on their 3rd incarnation) A few have also been dropped due to very low sales etc, where the yearly sales didn't even cover the cost of replacing molds. However the large majority of my products have remained in production, outside of the occasional break none of my mecha parts have been out of production before or since the case, and those formed the backbone of my parts business.

In the original complaint posted way back at the beginning of this GW's primary claim (and incorrect claim) against me in the filing was that I had sculpted the SAW walker which was sculpted by Zac Soden. I never had any part of it's construction, nor have I ever had any association with Chapterhouse. GW certainly didn't earn any points for that with the Judge who was very well aware that GW was trying to use legal costs to twist the thumb screws on two small businesses.

I do think that Nick had a much larger stake to defend and it took some conviction to do, in theory the case helps draw a better line in the sand. Although IMO it's a bit confusing given the randomness on claims that the jury awarded/denied. Once the appeal has been hashed out it'll help serve as a playbook by which other companies can operate from, and hopefully GW won't be as trigger happy to take people to court. A 5 minute phone call would have resolved my situation entirely, but why do something courteous when you have money to burn on lawyers?

I do think that the "age of fear" really needs to go away (which this case will help with). GW tries to control and restrain the hobby world to their products alone, the tighter they try and grip the faster they will lose it. New technology has helped open the doors for more people to get into the industry, that creates a lot of room for new talent and creativity which GW is sorely lacking nowdays. Their studio branch is suffering and they are losing ground to dozens of great new companies. Times are changing rapidly and if they want to remain at the top they need to get back to engaging their customers and the community, not suing it to piss and blacking out all information.

"Kissing the ring" was not a flattering way to put it, but what I meant what that under reasonable circumstances, a plaintiff in GW's position with respect to Paulson Games should have simply dropped Paulson Games as a named defendant with an apology to the Court for the 'mistake'. Normally what would have happened is that the Judge leans on the proper defendant's counsel to represent the improper indigent defendant with the understood, limited purpose of pushing the little bit of paper necessary to jointly motion the Court for a dismissal.

Rather than do that, GW forced Paulson Games to get representation and negotiate a settlement, even though GW's attachment of Paulson Games to the case was based on demonstrably incorrect facts alleging a non-existent business relationship between Paulson Games and Chapterhouse Studios.

In short, GW had no basis to name Paulson Games as a defendant in that lawsuit, and should properly have voluntarily dismissed Paulson Games as a named defendant and, if it so desired, filed a separate and unrelated complaint against Paulson Games. Instead, GW used its financial leverage to force Paulson Games into a settlement negotiation...in a lawsuit in which GW had no factual basis to name Paulson Games as a defendant.

Hence the 'kiss the ring' metaphor. Paulson Games should have been able to simply clear up the 'error' and walk away, but GW used its relative size and power to essentially coerce concessions from Paulson Games which were, properly speaking, entirely unrelated to the case. At least that's how I interpreted it, and please correct me if I am wrong.

 paulson games wrote:

I do think that the "age of fear" really needs to go away (which this case will help with). GW tries to control and restrain the hobby world to their products alone, the tighter they try and grip the faster they will lose it. New technology has helped open the doors for more people to get into the industry, that creates a lot of room for new talent and creativity which GW is sorely lacking nowdays. Their studio branch is suffering and they are losing ground to dozens of great new companies. Times are changing rapidly and if they want to remain at the top they need to get back to engaging their customers and the community, not suing it to piss and blacking out all information.

Nice! The more you tighten your grip, Kirby, the more systems will slip through your fingers.

 agnosto wrote:

Nice! The more you tighten your grip, Kirby, the more systems will slip through your fingers.

There is a great quote from the Space Janitors series parodying that quote to the effect of

"The more systems that slip through our fingers, the more we must tighten our grip"

Which may be an apt analogy for GW...

 agnosto wrote:
Nice! The more you tighten your grip, Kirby, the more systems will slip through your fingers.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

weeble1000 wrote:

In short, GW had no basis to name Paulson Games as a defendant in that lawsuit, and should properly have voluntarily dismissed Paulson Games as a named defendant and, if it so desired, filed a separate and unrelated complaint against Paulson Games. Instead, GW used its financial leverage to force Paulson Games into a settlement negotiation...in a lawsuit in which GW had no factual basis to name Paulson Games as a defendant.

Hence the 'kiss the ring' metaphor. Paulson Games should have been able to simply clear up the 'error' and walk away, but GW used its relative size and power to essentially coerce concessions from Paulson Games which were, properly speaking, entirely unrelated to the case. At least that's how I interpreted it, and please correct me if I am wrong.

He probably has to be careful how he describes his agreement with GW. It's pretty disgusting that GW were able to pull a wholly innocent party into the CHS case simply because they did not care to check their facts or listen to reason. A simple letter from Paulson Games and probably CHS correcting their mistaken claim that Paulson did the sculpt for them. I assume CHS has some paperwork showing they paid someone else for the original sculpt. I think GW were just enjoying swatting the flies, they weren't interested in reason or fairness.

Not being a legal person, I don't understand why someone so obviously wrongly identified has to make any settlement. He was wrongly identified. Even if it got all the way to court, the first question would be 'did you sculpt this?' And the answer would be 'no'. What does GW do then? They're just plain wrong and it's not going much further unless they can offer up proof connecting him to the sculpt, which they couldn't in truthfulness. It makes you wonder where GW really got the idea he had sculpted the big walker for CHS.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

In short, GW had no basis to name Paulson Games as a defendant in that lawsuit, and should properly have voluntarily dismissed Paulson Games as a named defendant and, if it so desired, filed a separate and unrelated complaint against Paulson Games. Instead, GW used its financial leverage to force Paulson Games into a settlement negotiation...in a lawsuit in which GW had no factual basis to name Paulson Games as a defendant.

Hence the 'kiss the ring' metaphor. Paulson Games should have been able to simply clear up the 'error' and walk away, but GW used its relative size and power to essentially coerce concessions from Paulson Games which were, properly speaking, entirely unrelated to the case. At least that's how I interpreted it, and please correct me if I am wrong.

He probably has to be careful how he describes his agreement with GW. It's pretty disgusting that GW were able to pull a wholly innocent party into the CHS case simply because they did not care to check their facts or listen to reason. A simple letter from Paulson Games and probably CHS correcting their mistaken claim that Paulson did the sculpt for them. I assume CHS has some paperwork showing they paid someone else for the original sculpt. I think GW were just enjoying swatting the flies, they weren't interested in reason or fairness.

Not being a legal person, I don't understand why someone so obviously wrongly identified has to make any settlement. He was wrongly identified. Even if it got all the way to court, the first question would be 'did you sculpt this?' And the answer would be 'no'. What does GW do then? They're just plain wrong and it's not going much further unless they can offer up proof connecting him to the sculpt, which they couldn't in truthfulness. It makes you wonder where GW really got the idea he had sculpted the big walker for CHS.

Well, what does it take to get to Court? What does it take to get to discovery, and dispository motions, if not all the way to Court?

Money and time. It takes both considerable money and considerable time.

I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect one could make some sort of exception motion prior to answering the complaint, but the issue was one of fact, which you can't very easily adjudicate at the outset. And you have a guy (again no offense) who is not a lawyer, who has never been sued, who has probably never been to court, who doesn't have money for a lawyer, who is making some money from a side business while he goes to school (if I recall correctly), trying to figure out WTF to do. But he's operating a business which GW wants to destroy. He's one of what Kirby described in 2013 as "intransigent small infringers" who was never even given the chance to "cease and desist as soon as [he got] the letter," because he never got a letter in the first place.

That was the world we were living in in 2010. We have a small, niche industry full of lots of little cottage businesses; businesses to whom threats can go very far, especially when calling a bluff can take tens of thousands of dollars and months, if not years, of emotional strain...to protect what? Most miniatures businesses are not principle sources of income for the owners. GW was happy to exploit that.

But GW has now been taught that behaving this way can get you burned...badly. Now, sadly, it took a lot of folks from outside the industry to teach GW such a hard lesson that Kirby is now wishing it was all a bad dream. What we shouldn't take away from this case is a feeling that the bully has been stopped dead in its tracks and everything is okay now.

What we should take away, ultimately, is that everybody in this industry deserves to be treated with respect, and deserves the opportunity to conduct businesses fairly and squarely; to compete in the market on the strength of their ideas, their art, and on the quality of their products. This is something that it is the responsibility of everyone in this industry to ensure. GW can file another BS lawsuit tomorrow. Or some other company can do it. Or some entity outside the industry. But spurious litigation is never going to get very far if we collectively don't let it happen. Look at Spots the Space Marine and what happened when the industry started backing up Hogarth. Dead on arrival.

Wouldn't it have been nice if in 2010 Jon would have been able to go confidently to a community of peers in the market with GW's complaint and have a frank discussion about how to deal with it? There's still a huge untapped opportunity to use the results of the GW v CHS case to build a way for people operating in this industry to communicate about issues that have the potential to impact the industry as a whole. This industry is really very small and rather intimate, and yet it constantly surprises me how many barriers there are to communication and cooperation; and a significant portion of it comes from the environment of fear and uncertainty created by GW.

For so long it was almost impossible to talk about the GW v CHS case with anyone who was anything more than a consumer in this market. It is still something of a dirty word in polite conversation, which is insane. The arguments being made by the parties in the GW v CHS appeal have the potential to radically change the rules for how this industry does business. That's a fact. It should be what everyone is talking about; not what nobody wants to talk about.

 Brennonjw wrote:
so, they sell their stuff as GW conversion products, get sued, they cry lack of evidence? this gak is going to make GW more paranoid, only hurting us in the long run

That is how court cases work. The plaintiff or prosecution has to provide evidence to support their claim. If they can't, they lose.

That is what happened to 75% of the claims that GW did not drop for lack of evidence before they got to trial.

I am sorry if the operation of basic justice might deprive you of a notional series of bits and kits for a toy soldier game.

weeble1000 wrote:
Look at Spots the Space Marine and what happened when the industry started backing up Hogarth. Dead on arrival.

Speaking of which, thank you for reminding me of that book and that I still hadn't bought it. Which I've just now rectified using my Kindle.

 Brennonjw wrote:
so, they sell their stuff as GW conversion products, get sued, they cry lack of evidence? this gak is going to make GW more paranoid, only hurting us in the long run

My faith in human nature is restored.

Just so you know... it isn't illegal to make conversion parts. Period. End. Stop.

That is how you get things like spinning rims for your cars and fancy scopes for your rifles.

It isn't against the law.

So, yes, there was a lack of evidence that doing something that is legal is against the law - in much the same way that there is a lack of evidence that water is dry at 38 degrees and one A of pressure.

Car companies have taken folks to court over that.

And lost.

The Auld Grump