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I recently played a game with my space marine army accompanied by solomon lok. He was the only forge world unit in my army, i had his stats with me and he doesn't exactly do anything that is out there. one opponent was totally on board and we had a great game.

my second guy of the night started off being a bit weird about it, making comments that forgeworld is outside the game. When i produced the pages that word for word say that most forge world units are meant for standard games he stopped for a while. Latter when he had some bad shooting due to Lok's warlord trait giving my marines fnp while they sat on the deciding objective, he had a mini freakout claiming that Lok's warlord trait is grossly over powered. the game was not fun from there on.

Has anyone else had people react negatively to a forge world unit, even ones that don't seem particularly cheesy (unless someone wants to argue that Lok is OP)

More books, more $$.

Always going to get people who are against the use of Forge World stuff I'm afraid.

For all the complaining, FW has never put out anything as broken as a scatterbike.

I have the book and rules on me though. If anyone wants to see the rules i'll share. I doubt most people own every single codex and supplement unless they got them through less than legal means but I would refuse to play an army just because i don't have my own copy of that book.

I actually find VERY few things from FW to be that game breaking and, if anything, they help plug possible holes in your army and overall just give more options.

Loom at the Land Raider for example. They're awesome looking but blow up too easily. When I came across the rules for the Spartan, it blew my mind. It was way more expensive, but it had more room, an extra HP, and the option for Ceramite. Now, anything not a D weapon has a much harder time stopping Tyberos and his Centurions from getting across the board.

GW (not forgeworld) needs to mention that forgeworld is perfectly acceptable for normal play in the rulebook. Until then there will always be that guy that talks about how forgeworld is overpowered and pay to win.

OK, showing my age here. 40k and associated specialist games have been in my life for circa thirty years. Anyone remember a commissar on jet bike?

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I recently played a game with my space marine army accompanied by solomon lok. He was the only forge world unit in my army, i had his stats with me and he doesn't exactly do anything that is out there. one opponent was totally on board and we had a great game.

my second guy of the night started off being a bit weird about it, making comments that forgeworld is outside the game. When i produced the pages that word for word say that most forge world units are meant for standard games he stopped for a while. Latter when he had some bad shooting due to Lok's warlord trait giving my marines fnp while they sat on the deciding objective, he had a mini freakout claiming that Lok's warlord trait is grossly over powered. the game was not fun from there on.

Has anyone else had people react negatively to a forge world unit, even ones that don't seem particularly cheesy (unless someone wants to argue that Lok is OP)

It's always been a crutch for people to complain about when things don't go their way. There's nothing from FW that matches the power of anything from GW's mainline offerings. Sure, some stuff can be abused, and a couple of notably overpowered things, but not anything more than anything else really. Certainly nothing like GW putting D weapons on 35pt infantry or sub 300pt D-weapon toting Gargantuan Creatures.

Mostly it's a boogeyman.

Mostly it's a boogeyman.

I agree on forgeworld not being an issue normally, but I have seen the leaked dataslate for their updated revenant titan.

Absolutely terrifying. Made it better at the things it was already annoyingly capable at (movement and shooting) then made it near impossible to defeat in close combat as well! They have the nerve to actually leave it at the same points value on top of that.

So unnecessary, so very very unnecessary.

But, to the op. He's just salty, it happens, enjoy your games without him!

All through 6th people gave me a hard time when I wanted to run my Mortis dread with my DA. It's the same as the dual AC dreads in the 6th ed DA book, but for a few more points gave me my only viable anti air.

Best part, some of the people complaining didn't even have fliers or anything DSing.

I'm gonna stay away from some of forge worlds bigger models. I think they fall into a different category all together.

because sme people are unwilling to drop that kind of money on getting a unit. i think largely the forgeworld units remain taboo as a relic of days gone by when players only bought things over the counter or via catalogues. web transactions were this black market esque thing to some people and they thought it unfair that because he bought things online with a credit card he could do things with his army the other guys couldnt consider or build armies around. today virtually everyone will shop online for something eventually heck ive done it probably 2 dozen times.

i also feel that people always have viewed forgeworld as the apocalypse store. its where you go to buy obscene things like warhouds and stormlords things that remove whole squadrons of models from ables at a time and as a result of apocalypse being besically killed as a game mode 40k players view their taboo ban on forgeworld as their only way to keep some semblance of a barrier between them and the doomsday weapons that in their eyes are impossible to counter with conventional means (even though their not that scary really except for maybe the warlord ).

 Swabby wrote:
GW (not forgeworld) needs to mention that forgeworld is perfectly acceptable for normal play in the rulebook. Until then there will always be that guy that talks about how forgeworld is overpowered and pay to win.

There is no distinction between GW and Forgeworld.
FW is a design studio of the GW company. When they make stuff for 40k games, that has exactly the same legality as any supplement made by GW.

The reason why people still complain is because they are bad losers. Funnily enough, FW stuff is not nearly as OP as some main codex stuff.

People are afraid of what they don't know (or don't want to know)

Most of the non-Lord of war forgeworld models are actually quite tsme, if not underpowered/overpriced due to the face paced release schedule for games workshop. However, many forgeworld super heavies are really difficult to deal with in a non-apocalypse match. I once played against a chaos player who used grimoired of true names on a brass scorpion against my white scars. I didn't kill anything.

Martel732 wrote:
For all the complaining, FW has never put out anything as broken as a scatterbike.

Ha ha ha. HA HA HA!!

HA HAHAHAH AAHAH A!!!

In 5th Edition, for example, the Achilles Land Raider (I think it was the Achilles pattern? I could be remembering wrong) was basically completely un-killable unless you had a Titan. Has it really been THAT long that people forgot about the R'Varna Battlesuit? Then you've got stuff like the Necron Pylons that are just crazy broken. The Tyranid Malanthrope costs 45 points more than his little brother the Venomthrope, yet he's worth easily twice what you pay for him. Eldar Hornets? I'm not even getting into the crazy big stuff!!

The list goes on and on.

New, younger players I imagine don't have much of an issue with Forgeworld. For those of us who have been playing a long time though, Forge World is where you got models to play Apocalypse battles. The rules for all the models was for the most part SO out of this world and broken that you ONLY would use them in Apocalypse battles where you were fighting with other people using the same kinds of toys. The points values for all the Forgeworld models were basically set with this in mind! You didn't balance the point cost of a Forge World Land Raider with the existing Space Marine codex. You balanced the cost of that Land Raider in the context of the Imperial Armour book that it was printed in. That Imperial Armour book had Titans, and all kinds of other hugely powerful units in it as well. So generally your Land Raider would need to be either a) pretty strong or b) pretty cheap in points to fit into the book. Sometimes both!

That is why Forgeworld has had a loooooooong reputation for making overpowered and undercosted items, and why allowing them in regular 40k battles was always based on permission from your opponent.

Bringing Forgeworld items to regular 40k battles is a VERY new phenomena considering how long the 40k game has been in existence. Forgeworld is doing a much better job within the past 3-5 years of balancing their units to be more in line with Warhammer 40k and not Apocalypse. Even then, they have a very very long back catalog of models that originally came out in 4th or 5th Edition, whose points are based on Imperial Armour, and who don't fit easily into the present game without an understanding from your opponent.

On the OPPOSITE side of the spectrum, Games Workshop has pretty much ELIMINATED Apocalypse and merged what used to be Apocalypse into normal 40k. Five years ago it would have been UNHEARD OF to think of D Weapons in a normal 40k game. Now they are fairly commonplace. So Forgeworld seems a bit more tame by comparison to what it was a few years back.

Gamers have long memories. Forgeworld made overpowered units for a LOOOOONG time. Not enough time has passed, and most gamers rarely see Forgeworld units due to the cost and rarity. So you plop down a Forgeworld unit, and gamers get scared because of what they've HEARD about the reputation of Forgeworld, regardless of whether or not it still holds true for whatever model you've put on the table.

Murrdox wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
For all the complaining, FW has never put out anything as broken as a scatterbike.

Ha ha ha. HA HA HA!!

HA HAHAHAH AAHAH A!!!

In 5th Edition, for example, the Achilles Land Raider (I think it was the Achilles pattern? I could be remembering wrong) was basically completely un-killable unless you had a Titan.

After they increased it's price and made a couple other adjustments after its initial expiermentail rules, it was strong but hardly the most broken thing at 325pts with no assault ramp and a transport capacity of 6.

Has it really been THAT long that people forgot about the R'Varna Battlesuit?

The one that got nerfed after its initial experimental rules and that very few people ever bother with?

Then you've got stuff like the Necron Pylons that are just crazy broken.

The Superheavy Gauss Pylon? In previous editions it was an Apocalypse unit, so largely it was irrelevant. Even now, It's immobile unit, with no more firepower than something like an Eldar Scorpion, and is hardly anything near the best investment for a superheavy.

The Tyranid Malanthrope costs 45 points more than his little brother the Venomthrope, yet he's worth easily twice what you pay for him.

It's extremely situational in usefulness. Sure it's probably better than a Venomthrope, but it's hardly the most broken unit in the game,

Eldar Hornets?

They're good, but hardly overpoweringly broken. You certainly don't see them in any power build armies sweeping tournaments.

I'm not even getting into the crazy big stuff!!

Guess who writes most of the rules for the "crazy big stuff"? GW. They took over things like the Manta, Thunderhawk, Reaver Titan, etc.

That is why Forgeworld has had a loooooooong reputation for making overpowered and undercosted items

No more so than anything out of the core GW studio. People like to nitpick a few things, but they don't seem to take it in any sort of comparison with core GW stuff. Like infiltrating Jump Daemon Pirnces int he 3.5E CSM book, 4E Eldar Invinci-skimmers, Vendettas, 3E Necron Monoliths, 5E Vulkan He'Stan, Lash of Submission, etc ad nauseum.

and why allowing them in regular 40k battles was always based on permission from your opponent.

No moreso than anything else, everything is always pretty much "opponent's permission".

Gamers have long memories. Forgeworld made overpowered units for a LOOOOONG time.

Very few relative to the overall size of their catalog, a couple of boogeymans (usually also played incorrectly) that spoiled everything. Nobody talks about things like Leman Russ Annihilators, Sentinel Power Lifters, Tauros Venators, the original rules for Valkyries and Hydra Flak tanks, Eldar Firestorms, Hyperios Whirlwinds, Land Seeder Typhoons, Mortis Dreadnoughts, Damocles Command Rhinos, Tau Heavy Gun Drones, Hazard Suits, Sensor Turrets, Barracudas, Eldar Nightwings, Phoenix Bombers, Ravens & Razorwings, Gunwagons, Grot Bomba Launchas, Mega Dreads, etc

What Murrdox said.

Plus you always got to add the TFG factor. TFG always has the money to go buy a Titan and throw it in a game. Way back in the day your average non forgeworld army didn't have the means to deal with things like Titans. Heck some armies didn't have anything in foregworld either to deal with it in the very early days.

TFG's as usual, ruined it for everyone. Now it's not as big as a deal with all the craziness in the regular codexes.

We wrote:
What Murrdox said.

Plus you always got to add the TFG factor. TFG always has the money to go buy a Titan and throw it in a game.

While true, this is not an issue with Forgeworld really. GW writes the rules for most of the titans as they are at this point, and core GW wrote the rules that allowed them to be taken in non-apocalypse games. FW just casts the resin. When FW wrote the rules for them, they were never intended to be allowed in just any game.

I still don't think any of that is as bad as the scatterbike.

there the same company though, so saying you need permission is like saying i need permission to run a demi company.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
there the same company though, so saying you need permission is like saying i need permission to run a demi company.

Not exactly. Regardless of the fact that Forgeworld are owned by GW, people are always going to see them as a separate entity to the main studio - because they are. They design their stuff completely independantly of the main 40K range, and so people see them as something different to the main game.

Rightly or wrongly, without something concrete from the actual studio stating that Forgeworld should be considered 'standard', there are always going to be those who refuse to take the word of the outside studio that they have any sort of 'authority' to claim their rules as 'official'.


That's a part of the problem. The other part, I think, is just familiarity. Or, more precisely, lack of same.

 insaniak wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
there the same company though, so saying you need permission is like saying i need permission to run a demi company.

They design their stuff completely independantly of the main 40K range, and so people see them as something different to the main game.

Given the way GW operates at this point, I'm not sure how relevant this line of thinking is. With GW's design philosophies changing radically on a near yearly basis, you get a whole lot more variation from Codex material than you do with FW material. Add to that the fact that GW is rather open about its relative lack of interest in rules in general, and it's hard to see where this line of thinking should really hold any weight anymore.

Additionally, FW does a lot of stuff that has at some point come out of the core studio, the Imperial Guard Griffon for instance (which has gone from being a 2E/3E codex unit, to a 3.5E FW unit, to a 5E Codex unit, to a 6E FW unit...) or things like Rapiers and Thudd Guns that used to be main studio units.

From 'Choosing Your Army' in the main rulebook:

Before any game, players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use.

As long as wording like that is in the rulebook, you'll never see Games Workshop give any sort of 'official' status to Forge World.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Given the way GW operates at this point, I'm not sure how relevant this line of thinking is. With GW's design philosophies changing radically on a near yearly basis, you get a whole lot more variation from Codex material than you do with FW material. Add to that the fact that GW is rather open about its relative lack of interest in rules in general, and it's hard to see where this line of thinking should really hold any weight anymore.

Sure. I never said that it made sense, just that it's what a lot of people still think.

FW is essentially confirmation bias. No one takes it unless it is good, so when you do see it you automatically think it all is good.

When it comes to Forgeworld its best to think of like any other supplement to the main game. There should be a conversation about what your playing and you shouldn't take for granted that it might not be something other people like.

FW used to put out some OP rules, but that was back before I started playing (start of 6th edition). I have always found FW to put out pretty balanced units. I say that as someone who doesn't use FW units, but has absolutely no problems playing against them. Beautiful models, good rules. Where's the problem?