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Okay guys, this debate is raging on pretty hard on some Tau forums I follow, so I thought I'd bring it here and get some viewpoints. I'm completely torn on this, so I'll try to present as much evidence as I can for either side of the issue:

The new Tau Hunter Contingent detachment allows units to combine their fire, resolving their shots as though they were a part of the same unit. If a Buffmander (Commander equipped with a Command and Control Node, Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite, and Puretide Engram Neurochip) is a part of one of those units, do those special rules confer to the entire "unit" that is combining fire?

Here are the rules for the Contingent, via Games Trust:


And also the rules for the Buffmander's wargear:


Points for:
- The wording of the MSS and CCN specifically refer to other models in his unit during the shooting phase, which by the rule of Combined Fire would be anything combining fire since they are treated as being one unit while resolving their shooting attacks
- The wording of the Combined Fire rule specifically mentions that it includes markerlights, which seems to imply that there are other benefits.

Points against:
- "As if they were a single unit" isn't the same as "they are the same unit"
- It's OP as hell

I'm actually split about 50/50 myself about this, so I'm very interested in hearing thoughts from you!

 Tarnag wrote:

- "As if they were a single unit" isn't the same as "they are the same unit"

This doesn't matter. They can't fire as a single unit if they are not a single unit. One automatically leads to the other, so to speak. That's why the units will share special rules like Night Vision and Tank/Monster Hunter too: at one point, they must become one unit in order to fulfill a criteria in the special rule.

That doesn't follow at all.

raverrn wrote:
That doesn't follow at all.

Who/what was this in response to?

I was speaking to AtoMaki's "They can't fire as a single unit if they are not a single unit."

Also food for thought: how many wounds does a quasi-unit need to take to force a morale check? Who runs if they fail?

@Raverrn

it doesnt matter? Why you bring up this question here? it doesnt make any sense.

_ghost_ wrote:
@Raverrn

it doesnt matter? Why you bring up this question here? it doesnt make any sense.

It's at the core of this discussion - Does Coordinate Firepower make the selected units into one? For how long?

Well take a look at the rules. There you find the words that rell you that you resolve the shoots "as if they were one unit" and thats it. in every other case they had to writ anything like " they count as one unit till your next turn .." or anything else.

The real core here is how far this " count as one unit" realy goes. regarding that single Shooting Attack.

Some only want to count it for ML others for unitwide special rules

 _ghost_ wrote:
Well take a look at the rules. There you find the words that rell you that you resolve the shoots "as if they were one unit" and thats it. in every other case they had to writ anything like " they count as one unit till your next turn .." or anything else.

The real core here is how far this " count as one unit" realy goes. regarding that single Shooting Attack.

Some only want to count it for ML others for unitwide special rules

It's entirely possible for them to wound themselves with or as part of that shooting attack.

But even then it doesnt matter.

They count as one unit for the shooting part. not for any part that involves taking wounds and so on.

Thus it doesn't matter. then each unit takes their losses on their own.

raverrn wrote:
I was speaking to AtoMaki's "They can't fire as a single unit if they are not a single unit."

But it is simple: how could you resolve an attack from a single unit without forming a single unit first? The combined unit lasts until the attack is resolved as it is created as part of the special rule that ceases to be in effect after the attack is over.

_ghost_ wrote:Well take a look at the rules. There you find the words that rell you that you resolve the shoots "as if they were one unit" and thats it. in every other case they had to writ anything like " they count as one unit till your next turn .." or anything else.

The real core here is how far this "count as one unit" realy goes. regarding that single Shooting Attack.

Some only want to count it for ML others for unitwide special rules

From the way it reads, it would be an entire Shooting Sequence. It basically adds a sub-step in Step 1 after select a unit to shoot and adds, and anyone close by. They then proceed as if they all were the same unit. So, Fire Warriors, Commander, Devilfish, would all fire their weapons at the same target, and if Tokens were available, would single-use for them all. So, if the Commander has a Burst Cannon, both his and the Devilfish would be employing it together in the same To-Hit Rolls, and if two Fire Warrior Squads were shooting together in the same Sequence, all of their Pulse Rifles would roll To-Hit together.

I'm not sure if you meant Shooting Attack from a single weapon's group, or the 6th Edition which lumped all the weapons together, so just clarifying for those who may have them confused.

AtoMaki wrote:

 Tarnag wrote:

- "As if they were a single unit" isn't the same as "they are the same unit"

This doesn't matter. They can't fire as a single unit if they are not a single unit. One automatically leads to the other, so to speak. That's why the units will share special rules like Night Vision and Tank/Monster Hunter too: at one point, they must become one unit in order to fulfill a criteria in the special rule.

It's how it reads to me.

We are told the shots are resolved as they were a single unit, so the buffmanders abilities would affect all the units for any unit wide abilities it grants.

The one strange point is the buffmander has to be in an unit that is firing , since technically the buffmander has to not shoot to grant it's abilities and on its own, that is not firing at a target unit which the rule requires. Considering the buffmander will likely be joined to an unit this is a moot point.

Also. I don't think you can split fire if you use this rule as it specifies you must choose the same target, if you split fire you are not choosing the same target.

blaktoof wrote:
We are told the shots are resolved as they were a single unit, so the buffmanders abilities would affect all the units for any unit wide abilities it grants.

The one strange point is the buffmander has to be in an unit that is firing , since technically the buffmander has to not shoot to grant it's abilities and on its own, that is not firing at a target unit which the rule requires. Considering the buffmander will likely be joined to an unit this is a moot point.

True, but that Buffmander is only taking 3 systems. Enough room for the long-ranged Missile Pod to be installed an shoot at almost anything he chooses.

blaktoof wrote:
Also. I don't think you can split fire if you use this rule as it specifies you must choose the same target, if you split fire you are not choosing the same target.

The alternative targeting by Split Fire is performed by a model, not a unit, though. If attempted to use on a single model unit, though, I would agree. Also consider, even if it is not Split Fire, the same would be said for Target Locks, as they function at the same level (but don't have a defined sequence like Split Fire).

Charistoph wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
We are told the shots are resolved as they were a single unit, so the buffmanders abilities would affect all the units for any unit wide abilities it grants.

The one strange point is the buffmander has to be in an unit that is firing , since technically the buffmander has to not shoot to grant it's abilities and on its own, that is not firing at a target unit which the rule requires. Considering the buffmander will likely be joined to an unit this is a moot point.

True, but that Buffmander is only taking 3 systems. Enough room for the long-ranged Missile Pod to be installed an shoot at almost anything he chooses.

blaktoof wrote:
Also. I don't think you can split fire if you use this rule as it specifies you must choose the same target, if you split fire you are not choosing the same target.

The alternative targeting by Split Fire is performed by a model, not a unit, though. If attempted to use on a single model unit, though, I would agree. Also consider, even if it is not Split Fire, the same would be said for Target Locks, as they function at the same level (but don't have a defined sequence like Split Fire).

The reason I brought up the buffmander firing is for command and control node. If the buffmander uses it, the buffmander may not shoot. If the buffmander is not shooting itself, it cannot be an unit combining fire- so it has to be in an unit that is shooting. For the other rules a missile pod would work just fine though I agree.

The split fire thing, I agree would also bee an issue with target locks. The wording for coordinated firepower specifies "these units must shoot the same target" target being singular, if you use an ability that allows the unit to fire at something else, if you picked a different target using a special rule you are not picking the "same target" and we are told the units must do that. It is performed by models, but models make up units and you have to select units for coordinated fire. If you select an unit for coordinated fire, the restrictions as well as the benefits affect the unit (which is made up the models) so the models would not be able to target other units than the one the first unit their unit is coordinating with is targeting, because they must shoot the same target. This rule seems very specific special rule, so would override pretty much any general special rule which would grant the ability to shoot at a separate target from the rest of your unit.

Not really much of a drawback, but it restricts things like getting a bunch of benefits by combining rules from various units then firing at a bunch of different units through target locks while trying to benefit from coordinated firepower etc.

blaktoof wrote:
The reason I brought up the buffmander firing is for command and control node. If the buffmander uses it, the buffmander may not shoot. If the buffmander is not shooting itself, it cannot be an unit combining fire- so it has to be in an unit that is shooting. For the other rules a missile pod would work just fine though I agree.

I did forget the restrictions on two of the Wargear. Of course, since he is an IC, it wouldn't be hard for him to join a unit first, and as you mentioned, the Drones are an option.

The split fire thing, I agree would also bee an issue with target locks. The wording for coordinated firepower specifies "these units must shoot the same target" target being singular, if you use an ability that allows the unit to fire at something else, if you picked a different target using a special rule you are not picking the "same target" and we are told the units must do that. It is performed by models, but models make up units and you have to select units for coordinated fire. If you select an unit for coordinated fire, the restrictions as well as the benefits affect the unit (which is made up the models) so the models would not be able to target other units than the one the first unit their unit is coordinating with is targeting, because they must shoot the same target. This rule seems very specific special rule, so would override pretty much any general special rule which would grant the ability to shoot at a separate target from the rest of your unit.

Split Fire and Target Locks do not have a unit targeting a separate target, though, just the models. And while it is Shooting the same target for the rest of the unit, it doesn't care if a couple models shoot something else, or at least does not mention it.

So this wasn't the question I was expecting from the title. Yes of course the buffmanders rules work, if you're not treating the models from the other units as being part of his unit for those rules you're not resolving the shots as one unit for the shooting attack and thus are breaking the coordinated firepower rule. I don't even see how this is a debate? In the rules "count as" and "treated as" are the same as is, yes this is problematic if the combined unit causes wounds to itself during the shooting phase. That is an interesting question, as is how does this interact with target locks/gargantuans and must the buffmander be in a unit that actually fires guns to qualify for joining the attack?

I don't have access to my book right now, but don't you check moral at the end of the shooting phase?
I know a lot of people put markers after a unit is shot to remind them, but I think it all happens at the end of the phase.

 Nilok wrote:
I don't have access to my book right now, but don't you check moral at the end of the shooting phase?
I know a lot of people put markers after a unit is shot to remind them, but I think it all happens at the end of the phase.

I've only just been skimming this thread, but couldn't see any mention of Morale tests?

But yes, you only test at the end of the phase.

Charistoph wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
We are told the shots are resolved as they were a single unit, so the buffmanders abilities would affect all the units for any unit wide abilities it grants.

The one strange point is the buffmander has to be in an unit that is firing , since technically the buffmander has to not shoot to grant it's abilities and on its own, that is not firing at a target unit which the rule requires. Considering the buffmander will likely be joined to an unit this is a moot point.

True, but that Buffmander is only taking 3 systems. Enough room for the long-ranged Missile Pod to be installed an shoot at almost anything he chooses.

If Buffmander attacks, his entire point drops because both re-roll to hit and ignores cover items requires him to stay put.

 Quanar wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
I don't have access to my book right now, but don't you check moral at the end of the shooting phase?
I know a lot of people put markers after a unit is shot to remind them, but I think it all happens at the end of the phase.

I've only just been skimming this thread, but couldn't see any mention of Morale tests?

But yes, you only test at the end of the phase.

Also you can assign the wounds as you choose between the units firing as they are all equidistant from the firing unit and ypu take majority toughness across the board.

I'll point out here that the rule for combined fire states that the units participating must fire at the same target. Things like target locks, or GMCs that "may" split their fire among different targets would not work with this, as a specific restriction (must) always takes precedence over a general permission (may). One might try to argue that as long as one model in the unit is still targeting the "key" unit, that it would qualify for that line of text but i interpret it to mean the entire unit must fire. To have it not work that way wouldn't make sense if for example 3 units of crisis suits declared combine fire on a single rhino, then 2 of the units used target locks to shoot at 2 more other rhinos -- the unit didn't really combine it's firepower did it?

As far as USR sharing - any echo abilities that affect an entire unit during a shooting attack like preferred enemy, tank hunter, etc, would be shared during a combined fire excercise - to say otherwise is to basically say tau hunter contingents get NO command benefits whatsoever (practically). When Necrons get +1 RP rolls, or Gladius get free rhinos and objective secured on their core, or eldar get auto-6 run rolls -- just letting tau share markerlights and nothing else when combining their shots is a bit asinine. But i do say that when it happens, they are indeed combining firepower onto one target - not using a single buffmander to spread tank hunter across all their army then turn the entire enemy tankline into rubble.

It says unit not each model in the unit must target the designated unit. Thus my build for Riptides will be:

Riptide: Ion, EWO, TL, Drone 220

The unit (including drone) targets as required then the Riptide splits off with twin linked and ignores cover. I'm also going to run my buff suit as a Shas'vre in a crisis unit with a MP so he can likewise target the designated unit.

The Puetide Engram Neurochip upgrade has no effect on the combined unit, as it only effects the model with the upgrade, not it's unit. And since the Buffmander isn't even shooting in order to trigger the other two upgrades, the Puretide chip is effectively useless.

SJ

Yeah look at what rules the PEN Chip provides and how they work.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The Puetide Engram Neurochip upgrade has no effect on the combined unit, as it only effects the model with the upgrade, not it's unit. And since the Buffmander isn't even shooting in order to trigger the other two upgrades, the Puretide chip is effectively useless.

SJ

Take a look at the rules the puretide chip grants it's owner - Tank hunter, Monster Hunter, Stubborn, Counter-Attack, Furious Charge. These are all abilities that only require one model in a unit for the entire unit to benefit from.

The buffmander standing alone in a field cannot shoot and benefit from his MSSS or C&C node - but in a unit, they can target an enemy with shooting and then those benefits apply to the unit as well. These are all shared, and looks pretty watertight to me. My interpretation of the rule that is when you ignore the portion of text that says units in a combined fire attack must all shoot the same unit, by using target locks to split fire off amongst other targets, is when it gets crazy broken and obviously (to me) unintended. In that way you could have a single commander with all these benefits set up a shooting attack, then all your suits would "combine their fire" by shooting other things with target locks???/ that's in no way combining fire, it's at best a hairy loophole. The rule is strong and doesn't need the extra oomph some folks are trying to give it by gaming the target lock upgrade, IMO.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The Puetide Engram Neurochip upgrade has no effect on the combined unit, as it only effects the model with the upgrade, not it's unit. And since the Buffmander isn't even shooting in order to trigger the other two upgrades, the Puretide chip is effectively useless.

SJ

Take a look at the rules the puretide chip grants it's owner - Tank hunter, Monster Hunter, Stubborn, Counter-Attack, Furious Charge. These are all abilities that only require one model in a unit for the entire unit to benefit from.

The buffmander standing alone in a field cannot shoot and benefit from his MSSS or C&C node - but in a unit, they can target an enemy with shooting and then those benefits apply to the unit as well. These are all shared, and looks pretty watertight to me. My interpretation of the rule that is when you ignore the portion of text that says units in a combined fire attack must all shoot the same unit, by using target locks to split fire off amongst other targets, is when it gets crazy broken and obviously (to me) unintended. In that way you could have a single commander with all these benefits set up a shooting attack, then all your suits would "combine their fire" by shooting other things with target locks???/ that's in no way combining fire, it's at best a hairy loophole. The rule is strong and doesn't need the extra oomph some folks are trying to give it by gaming the target lock upgrade, IMO.

Nope the commander can't shoot if he can shoot how can he shoot? He must be in a unit that shoots for him to join the attack. However each individual unit with target lock models must also target that unit, so a model from that unit must fire at the target unit, then models with target locks are free to spread their fire.

tetrisphreak wrote:I'll point out here that the rule for combined fire states that the units participating must fire at the same target. Things like target locks, or GMCs that "may" split their fire among different targets would not work with this, as a specific restriction (must) always takes precedence over a general permission (may). One might try to argue that as long as one model in the unit is still targeting the "key" unit, that it would qualify for that line of text but i interpret it to mean the entire unit must fire. To have it not work that way wouldn't make sense if for example 3 units of crisis suits declared combine fire on a single rhino, then 2 of the units used target locks to shoot at 2 more other rhinos -- the unit didn't really combine it's firepower did it?

Yes, they would. Target Locks and Split Fire do not affect a unit's targeting (aside from not shooting that target), and allow a model to independently target. Super-Heavy Shooting multiple Targets does not give any Primary or Secondary status to their Targets, so all would be considered part of the target.

Coordinated Attack does not specify that the units may ONLY shoot the same target, just that they shoot at the same target. It is a fine line, and in most cases means nothing, but still allows for multiple targetting to be accomplished.

tetrisphreak wrote:The buffmander standing alone in a field cannot shoot and benefit from his MSSS or C&C node - but in a unit, they can target an enemy with shooting and then those benefits apply to the unit as well. These are all shared, and looks pretty watertight to me. My interpretation of the rule that is when you ignore the portion of text that says units in a combined fire attack must all shoot the same unit, by using target locks to split fire off amongst other targets, is when it gets crazy broken and obviously (to me) unintended. In that way you could have a single commander with all these benefits set up a shooting attack, then all your suits would "combine their fire" by shooting other things with target locks???/ that's in no way combining fire, it's at best a hairy loophole. The rule is strong and doesn't need the extra oomph some folks are trying to give it by gaming the target lock upgrade, IMO.

It is hairy and cheesy, and Tau have been doing stuff like that for years now. They almost NEED that level of shooting cheesiness because they sure can't do much damage in any other way*.

*Yes, there are exceptions, but I'm not going to include Unique models in this assessment.

Initially, It does seem like special rules carry over to other units participating in a "coordinated firepower" attack. The wording for Markerlights is unit specific and it just makes sense that since the participating units are "resolving their shots as if they were a single unit" that they benefit from rules that say "models in this unit get x bonus."

However, the rule specifies "this includes the use of markerlight abilities" but does not clarify if it also includes the use of special rules. This is what makes me question if special rules transfer. The attorney in me would have liked to see the rule say "this includes the use of markerlight abilities and special rules or wargear."

I mean, think of the implications:

-Darkstrider's structural analyzer rule would reduce the T for ALL shots involved. Hello S10 Hammerhead Railgun shots against T6 MCs w/o eternal Warrior? This mechanic can be pretty abusive against the right targets.

-The Pathfinder Pulse Accelerator Drone would increase the range of all pulse weapons fired from all other units involved. Say hello to Pulse Rifles with a potential threat range of 48" (move 6", 6" from drone, 6" from run via hunter cadre rule).

-Tank/Monster Hunter from a buffmander to all units involved. Say goodbye to an MC or Vehicle a turn. Guaranteed or your mattress if freeeeeee*.

So yeah, if special rules carry over, Buffmander with a Riptide is essentially back now...With a vengeance as you can buff multiple Riptide's supposedly.

Nasty combo I've been thinking over is 36 Fire Warriors, Fireblade, Ethereal, Buffmander and that allied SM formation that you can virtually guarantee a power (and hope for misfortune which makes all attacks against target-regardless of source-rending). Hello to a potential of 144 twin-linked BS5 cover ignoring monster/tank hunter shots that rend... Anyone got the math on how much damage that can do? Good bye Mr. Wraithknight!


All in all, these rules might be ok as they are because it helps mitigate crazy deathstars and it is only against a single target. This new incarnation of Tau will make MSU play/armies a lot more rewarding/effective.

The includes Marker lights is a redundant reminder. If you're not treating the models as part of the same unit for special rules why not when the rules explicitly state there are treated as the same unit.

There there is lots of craziness you can do. Have you seen the invisistars run at tournaments these days? Putting Darkstrider in there is a huge tax though as you require a CAD to add him.