So do blast now hit multiple levels of ruins?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Phanixis**

This is something that has recently come to my attention. With the vast simplification of ruins rules to the sentence "grants 4+ cover", there seems to be nothing stopping blast, large blast and templates from hitting every level of the ruin that falls under these templates, as the only criteria of scoring a hit is that the models must lie wholly or partially under the template. If this interpretation is correct, it makes these sorts of weapons absolutely devastating against units camped in multilevel ruins, especially if they also happen to have ignores cover (hello Tau'nar). Is this interpretation correct? Have I missed any rules?

Thanks for the help.

**luke1705**

There is no such thing as multiple levels of ruins anymore. The blast hits "what is underneath the blast marker" So, yes. Pillars of flame. Most tournaments have FAQ'd that nonsense back to 6th ed where it was just one level, and AFAIK that's how most people play it

**insaniak**

luke1705 wrote:
There is no such thing as multiple levels of ruins anymore.

That's not precisely true. The levels will still matter for other things where the physical height difference has an impact. All that has changed its that the rule limiting boats and templates to a single level (which iirc was only introduced in 5th ed as a standard game rule) was removed again.

**Deathypoo**

A lot of tournaments have changed it back to 6th edition rules, but I disagree with that choice. There are a lot of benefits to being stacked up in a multi-level ruin, and the trade-off is extreme vulnerability to blast weapons.

**vitae_drinker**

Honestly, realistically a vertically stacked unit would be VERY vulnerable to bombs/artillery/flamethrowers/etc. Fire flows down, and weapons that drop templates are parabolic arc weapons, generally. Direct fire HE and Grenades tend to be the only exceptions to this, but then again, a grenade going off on the floor above you could drop concrete/timbers/secondary explosives (dead teammates grenades going off/cluster munitions/etc) on top of you, too.

**Btothefnrock**

Yeah, I always push to make it as written, aka it hits all the levels.

That being said, I wish there were more comprehensive rules for ruins, or any vertical terrain for that matter.

**jeffersonian000**

Only Barrage hits all levels, due to its ignoring Line of Sight clause. All other forms of Blasts and Templets are still required to follow Line of Sight rules, which means no "pillars of flame".

SJ

**KharnsRightHand**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
Only Barrage hits all levels, due to its ignoring Line of Sight clause. All other forms of Blasts and Templets are still required to follow Line of Sight rules, which means no "pillars of flame".

SJ

There's no reason you wouldn't be able to see at least a few units on all levels, and if you couldn't see some models on a level, targeting one level isn't going to change that.

**nosferatu1001**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
Only Barrage hits all levels, due to its ignoring Line of Sight clause. All other forms of Blasts and Templets are still required to follow Line of Sight rules, which means no "pillars of flame".

SJ

Barrage does not ignore Line of Sight, error 1
It instead treats the shot as having come from the centre of the blast marker for the purposes of LOS and wound allocation

Second error: you are confusing rules about HITS with rules about wounds

Templates and normal blasts DO hit all "levels" of a ruin: they hit EVERY model underneath the marker. No LOS is needed to HIT a model with a template or blast marker

Out of Sight will kick in and empty the wound pool IF no models in the unit hit can be seen, by any of the firing models. (or there are no models left, of course...). It is entirely possible to be able to draw LOS to every model in a ruin.

Please check more carefully before posting this, sa it is utterly incorrect.

**sirlynchmob**

You can hit models on different levels, but you must be able to see them when you look down from the marker.

The way some people use under goes totally against how we use it in language. those inventing some sort of infinite column, would also say "I'm under the moon & stars, while sitting in their basement at high noon."

The proper word to be using though is "underneath" it's in bold and means "directly under" which goes with how we use the word linguistically.

for barrages, we know where the shot comes from, the center of the maker, where is the marker? it's physical location is where you must be able to draw LOS to, otherwise you will trigger the out of sight clause.

**jeffersonian000**

This subject use to come up about once a month for about a year, now seems to pop up about once or twice a year.

Spoiler:

Consensus has been that since multi-level ruins rules no long exist in 7th due to poor editing, a Barrage's ability to ignore LoS for targeting combined with determining cover by drawing a line to the center of the blast allows a Barrage to skip the step of determining which models are underneath the marker, in effect hiting all models underneath regardless of LoS. Model not seen get a 4+ cover save, while models seen do not. If GW would bother to higher a competent editor, these issues wouldn't occur.

Based on 6th Ed Stronghold rules, Barrages should only hit models the marker covers, but that would be RAI or HIWPI, rather than RAW.

SJ

**Lusiphur**

If GW would bother to higher a competent editor, these issues wouldn't occur.

When complaining about editing skills, you should probably use the word hire instead of higher!

Sorry, couldn't resist pointing it out.

**jeffersonian000**

Lusiphur wrote:
If GW would bother to higher a competent editor, these issues wouldn't occur.

When complaining about editing skills, you should probably use the word hire instead of higher!

Sorry, couldn't resist pointing it out.

I'm not a professional line editor. GW does appear to have a good one, though, as their typos are fewer this edition than previous. What they lack is a content editor, someone responsible for resolving poor or unclear wording.

SJ

**SagesStone**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
This subject use to come up about once a month for about a year, now seems to pop up about once or twice a year.

Spoiler:

Barrage
All Barrage weapons use blast markers and consequently use the rules for Blast weapons, as indicated by their profile, with the following exceptions:
• Barrage weapons can fire indirectly. This means they can fire at a target that they do not have line of sight to, as long as the target is beyond their minimum range (if applicable). When firing indirectly, the Ballistic Skill of the firer is not subtracted from the scatter distance; unless a Hit! is rolled on the scatter dice, the blast marker always scatters a full 2D6". If a Barrage weapon has line of sight to its target it can fire directly, even if the target is within its minimum range.
• To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model. Hits against vehicles are always resolved against their side armour.

Consensus has been that since multi-level ruins rules no long exist in 7th due to poor editing, a Barrage's ability to ignore LoS for targeting combined with determining cover by drawing a line to the center of the blast allows a Barrage to skip the step of determining which models are underneath the marker, in effect hiting all models underneath regardless of LoS. Model not seen get a 4+ cover save, while models seen do not. If GW would bother to higher a competent editor, these issues wouldn't occur.

Based on 6th Ed Stronghold rules, Barrages should only hit models the marker covers, but that would be RAI or HIWPI, rather than RAW.

SJ

No where does it have any relevance to hitting models under blast markers simply how to remove casualties.

In short if you have LoS you can target with a blast or flame template. All models under that template are hit. Ergo say I can see a model on a roof, I can target that unit with a frag missile for the small blast. Now the way the blast is worded any models under that template will be hit. LoS only counted for the initial target, obviously the others would get some sort of cover but it's the same as if it scattered around a corner and hit a unit the shooting model couldn't see; the shot isn't suddenly cancelled and hits everyone it scatters or sits over.

**nosferatu1001**

Sirlynch is still conflating underneath with directly beneath.

That is still an error.

**jeffersonian000**

n0t_u wrote:
jeffersonian000 wrote:
This subject use to come up about once a month for about a year, now seems to pop up about once or twice a year.

Spoiler:

Barrage
All Barrage weapons use blast markers and consequently use the rules for Blast weapons, as indicated by their profile, with the following exceptions:
• Barrage weapons can fire indirectly. This means they can fire at a target that they do not have line of sight to, as long as the target is beyond their minimum range (if applicable). When firing indirectly, the Ballistic Skill of the firer is not subtracted from the scatter distance; unless a Hit! is rolled on the scatter dice, the blast marker always scatters a full 2D6". If a Barrage weapon has line of sight to its target it can fire directly, even if the target is within its minimum range.
• To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model. Hits against vehicles are always resolved against their side armour.

Consensus has been that since multi-level ruins rules no long exist in 7th due to poor editing, a Barrage's ability to ignore LoS for targeting combined with determining cover by drawing a line to the center of the blast allows a Barrage to skip the step of determining which models are underneath the marker, in effect hiting all models underneath regardless of LoS. Model not seen get a 4+ cover save, while models seen do not. If GW would bother to higher a competent editor, these issues wouldn't occur.

Based on 6th Ed Stronghold rules, Barrages should only hit models the marker covers, but that would be RAI or HIWPI, rather than RAW.

SJ

No where does it have any relevance to hitting models under blast markers simply how to remove casualties.

In short if you have LoS you can target with a blast or flame template. All models under that template are hit. Ergo say I can see a model on a roof, I can target that unit with a frag missile for the small blast. Now the way the blast is worded any models under that template will be hit. LoS only counted for the initial target, obviously the others would get some sort of cover but it's the same as if it scattered around a corner and hit a unit the shooting model couldn't see; the shot isn't suddenly cancelled and hits everyone it scatters or sits over.

That only occurs if you ignore the True Line of Sight rules. You can only hit models that you can see, except for Barrage or other weapons with Line of Sight ignoring rules. Blasts and Templets on there own can still only effect models clearly under the marker.

SJ

**nosferatu1001**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
n0t_u wrote:
jeffersonian000 wrote:
This subject use to come up about once a month for about a year, now seems to pop up about once or twice a year.

Spoiler:

Barrage
All Barrage weapons use blast markers and consequently use the rules for Blast weapons, as indicated by their profile, with the following exceptions:
• Barrage weapons can fire indirectly. This means they can fire at a target that they do not have line of sight to, as long as the target is beyond their minimum range (if applicable). When firing indirectly, the Ballistic Skill of the firer is not subtracted from the scatter distance; unless a Hit! is rolled on the scatter dice, the blast marker always scatters a full 2D6". If a Barrage weapon has line of sight to its target it can fire directly, even if the target is within its minimum range.
• To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model. Hits against vehicles are always resolved against their side armour.

Consensus has been that since multi-level ruins rules no long exist in 7th due to poor editing, a Barrage's ability to ignore LoS for targeting combined with determining cover by drawing a line to the center of the blast allows a Barrage to skip the step of determining which models are underneath the marker, in effect hiting all models underneath regardless of LoS. Model not seen get a 4+ cover save, while models seen do not. If GW would bother to higher a competent editor, these issues wouldn't occur.

Based on 6th Ed Stronghold rules, Barrages should only hit models the marker covers, but that would be RAI or HIWPI, rather than RAW.

SJ

No where does it have any relevance to hitting models under blast markers simply how to remove casualties.

In short if you have LoS you can target with a blast or flame template. All models under that template are hit. Ergo say I can see a model on a roof, I can target that unit with a frag missile for the small blast. Now the way the blast is worded any models under that template will be hit. LoS only counted for the initial target, obviously the others would get some sort of cover but it's the same as if it scattered around a corner and hit a unit the shooting model couldn't see; the shot isn't suddenly cancelled and hits everyone it scatters or sits over.

That only occurs if you ignore the True Line of Sight rules. You can only hit models that you can see, except for Barrage or other weapons with Line of Sight ignoring rules. Blasts and Templets on there own can still only effect models clearly under the marker.

SJ

Please cite these rules. There is out of sight, which refers to wounds and not hits, so what are you relying on?

Note the guidance on on e way to determine the number of models hit by a blast is just that, guidance. You are corrected on this every thread, yet persist on declaiming your house rule as being raw.

Of course if I am mistaken and you are only stating hywpi, please note you forgot to clearly state this, as the tenets require.

**insaniak**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
You can only hit models that you can see, except for Barrage or other weapons with Line of Sight ignoring rules. Blasts and Templets on there own can still only effect models clearly under the marker.

This is not, and has never been, the rule.

You can only wound models in LOS, except for the case of weapons with a specific allowance to ignore LOS. You hit any models under the marker or template.

**vitae_drinker**

Correct. So any wounds generated by hits on out of LOS models under the template/blast can ONLY be applied to models in LOS.

**insaniak**

Yes, because applying wounds for non-barrage hits has nothing to do with the placement of the marker or template. It goes to the closest model in LOS as with any other weapon.

All the marker or template does is determine how many models are hit. Not which models are hit.

**jeffersonian000**

Out of Sight
If none of the firing models can draw a line of sight to a particular model in the target unit, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it, and must instead be allocated to the nearest visible model in the target unit. If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost.

A Blast marker cannot draw Line of Sight through a floor, nor can a Templet.

SJ

**SagesStone**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
n0t_u wrote:
jeffersonian000 wrote:
This subject use to come up about once a month for about a year, now seems to pop up about once or twice a year.

Spoiler:

Barrage
All Barrage weapons use blast markers and consequently use the rules for Blast weapons, as indicated by their profile, with the following exceptions:
• Barrage weapons can fire indirectly. This means they can fire at a target that they do not have line of sight to, as long as the target is beyond their minimum range (if applicable). When firing indirectly, the Ballistic Skill of the firer is not subtracted from the scatter distance; unless a Hit! is rolled on the scatter dice, the blast marker always scatters a full 2D6". If a Barrage weapon has line of sight to its target it can fire directly, even if the target is within its minimum range.
• To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model. Hits against vehicles are always resolved against their side armour.

Consensus has been that since multi-level ruins rules no long exist in 7th due to poor editing, a Barrage's ability to ignore LoS for targeting combined with determining cover by drawing a line to the center of the blast allows a Barrage to skip the step of determining which models are underneath the marker, in effect hiting all models underneath regardless of LoS. Model not seen get a 4+ cover save, while models seen do not. If GW would bother to higher a competent editor, these issues wouldn't occur.

Based on 6th Ed Stronghold rules, Barrages should only hit models the marker covers, but that would be RAI or HIWPI, rather than RAW.

SJ

No where does it have any relevance to hitting models under blast markers simply how to remove casualties.

In short if you have LoS you can target with a blast or flame template. All models under that template are hit. Ergo say I can see a model on a roof, I can target that unit with a frag missile for the small blast. Now the way the blast is worded any models under that template will be hit. LoS only counted for the initial target, obviously the others would get some sort of cover but it's the same as if it scattered around a corner and hit a unit the shooting model couldn't see; the shot isn't suddenly cancelled and hits everyone it scatters or sits over.

That only occurs if you ignore the True Line of Sight rules. You can only hit models that you can see, except for Barrage or other weapons with Line of Sight ignoring rules. Blasts and Templets on there own can still only effect models clearly under the marker.

SJ

No that rule is for targetting. Otherwise blasts automatically fail if they scatter around a corner.

**sirlynchmob**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sirlynch is still conflating underneath with directly beneath.

That is still an error.

get a dictionary, that is the exact quote for the definition. words have meanings.

**SagesStone**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
Out of Sight
If none of the firing models can draw a line of sight to a particular model in the target unit, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it, and must instead be allocated to the nearest visible model in the target unit. If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost.

A Blast marker cannot draw Line of Sight through a floor, nor can a Templet.

SJ

The blast rules themselves from the appendix of the digital rulebook.

When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit. Instead, just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the 3" blast marker with its hole entirely over the base of the target model (see diagram), or its hull if the target is a vehicle. The hole at the centre of the marker must be within the weapon’s maximum range. You cannot place the blast marker so that the base or hull of any friendly model is even partially under it.
The large area affected by the blast means it’s going to be very hard to miss completely. Nonetheless, the shot might not land exactly where intended. Roll for the blast marker to scatter and subtract the firer’s Ballistic Skill from the distance (if any) that it scatters, to a minimum of 0". Note that it is possible, and absolutely fine, for a shot to scatter beyond the weapon’s maximum or minimum range and line of sight. This represents the chance of ricochets, the missile blasting through cover and other random events. In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models locked in combat). If the shot scatters so that the hole in the centre of the marker is beyond the table’s edge, the shot is a complete miss and is discarded.
Once the final position of the blast marker has been determined, take a good look at it from above – each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer’s line of sight.
Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal. Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit.

Ergo even if you can't see them they can take wounds which bypasses the usual rule regarding LoS and wound allocation. The only thing between barrage and blast is blast needs you to have LoS to initially target and fire while barrage doesn't.

**insaniak**

jeffersonian000 wrote:

A Blast marker cannot draw Line of Sight through a floor, nor can a Templet.

Blast Markers and templates don't draw LOS to anything, except in the case of Barrages.

LOS is from the shooter, not from the marker.

And, again, LOS has nothing to do with determining whether or not models are hit. You need LOS from the shooter to a model in the enemy unit in order to target them... but you don't need LOS to each model under the marker. Once you have determined whether or not you have LOS to your target, you don't bother with LOS again until you get to wound allocation.

**jokerkd**

I'll just jump in and point out that templates are not placed over everything the way blasts are. The small end must touch the firing model.

If the firing model is on the top floor however, shenanigans!

**nosferatu1001**

insaniak wrote:Yes, because applying wounds for non-barrage hits has nothing to do with the placement of the marker or template. It goes to the closest model in LOS as with any other weapon.

All the marker or template does is determine how many models are hit. Not which models are hit.

Insaniak - not quite, Blasts always wound the closest model to the firing unit, even if it is out of LOS. See the Blasts section. Templates have no similar allowance though, so you are correct for them

jeffersonian000 wrote:
Out of Sight
If none of the firing models can draw a line of sight to a particular model in the target unit, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it, and must instead be allocated to the nearest visible model in the target unit. If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost.

A Blast marker cannot draw Line of Sight through a floor, nor can a Templet.

SJ

Why are you "drawing Line of Sight"? You hit everything under the marker. LOS is utterly unimportant at this point.

You have been asked to either correct yoru position, or substantiate it, 3 times now. You are failing to do so, and instead promulgating your house rule as if it had any relation to the real rules. Dont.

Sirlynch - ah, so breaking the tenets. gotcha. Oh, and it can mean "concealed by". So underneath the marker is the same as eerything concealed by the marker. Thast does not mean it cannot be concealed by somethign else as well. You remain, as ever on this point, utterly wrong.

**insaniak**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
insaniak wrote:Yes, because applying wounds for non-barrage hits has nothing to do with the placement of the marker or template. It goes to the closest model in LOS as with any other weapon.

All the marker or template does is determine how many models are hit. Not which models are hit.

Insaniak - not quite, Blasts always wound the closest model to the firing unit, even if it is out of LOS. See the Blasts section.

Yeah, minor brainfart there...

**nosferatu1001**

Its OK, the combination of wounding closest, but the OoS rule still applying, can make any brain go smoosh in this edition

I do wonder if Jeffersonian will ever substantiate this nonsense about "drawing Line of Sight" from the blast marker to determine hits however.

**sirlynchmob**

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Sirlynch - ah, so breaking the tenets. gotcha. Oh, and it can mean "concealed by". So underneath the marker is the same as eerything concealed by the marker. Thast does not mean it cannot be concealed by somethign else as well. You remain, as ever on this point, utterly wrong.

Why are you changing the rules, why are you making up definitions to words? you have to change RAW to make your HYWPI work, so please mark your made up rule accordingly.

Full Definition of UNDERNEATH 1a : directly beneath
and beneath: 2: directly under : underneath

and since you have a hard time with directly:
1a : in a direct manner <directly relevant> <the road runs directly east and west>
b : in immediate physical contact
c : in the manner of direct variation

It's like the rules are trying to tell us how to use the marker. If something is blocking the marker from the model it is not directly beneath. I remain as always correct on the matter and my rule of thumb stands. If Nos says it's true, then you can rest assured it's wrong.