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So it's not really a closely-guarded secret that Forgeworld's Horus Heresy setting is generally a lot more balanced than the 40K game. Between the majority of the armies being marines, and FW just naturally having higher quality rules vetting than GW-proper, the lines of power-level between factions tend to be a lot more blurred- which is a good thing.

That said, 30K is still at its core a stat/math-based game, which means that some factions are going to simply be better than others, even if the advantage is small.

So I'm curious to know what Dakka thinks. From a competitive stand-point, how would you tier the 30K factions? I'm primarily interested in the individual legions, but if you want to toss the Solar Auxillia and Mechanicus in there too then feel free.

The first four are pretty much the weakest, as far as I hear. I don't think it's really been power creep, as much as they were maybe a bit over cautious with the first book. Their units are often far too expensive and their rules not as much of a boost as some of the later ones.

Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Iron Hands and Imperial Fists I've heard as being some of the better ones. Iron Warriors are a bit meh.

I've not actually played this is just based on what I've heard a lot.

Well seeing as all the legions have the same base, they are pretty balanced.

But some legion stuff, like the Justarian Black Legion terminators, are useless. And some later characters, like Siggy, are pants on head silly.

From what I've seen of the mechanicum, they are very good, but legion has enough firepower to take them out.

Well, I play World Eaters and Angron is a real beast in cc if he gets there. My regular opponent is Imperial Fists and these guys are really good.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I play World Eaters and Angron is a real beast in cc if he gets there. My regular opponent is Imperial Fists and these guys are really good.

Angron, proud, fearless, angry, fear of missile launchers.

I thought sigismund was pretty good?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I thought sigismund was pretty good?

He is good. Really really good. Some would say a bit OP.

I think BA have a pretty good Relic. Iniative AP2 with Fear, Blind, Fleshbane and Soulblaze. Not sure how I feel about picking a faction for it's Relic though.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I think BA have a pretty good Relic. Iniative AP2 with Fear, Blind, Fleshbane and Soulblaze. Not sure how I feel about picking a faction for it's Relic though.

Or you can get the paragon blade. S+1 AP2, Specialist Weapon, Murderous Strike (ID on to-wound of 6) for 25 points. Coupled with Alpha legion and their 5 point specialist weapon and the Digital lasers, you can make a beat stick thatll gimp any character without EW bar a few

It does seem like the newer the Legion rules the better they are.

The Luna Wolves and World Eater rules seem like some of the worst legion-specific rules in the game, tbh.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I think BA have a pretty good Relic. Iniative AP2 with Fear, Blind, Fleshbane and Soulblaze. Not sure how I feel about picking a faction for it's Relic though.

Well I'll tell you then - you should feel awful about it!

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It does seem like the newer the Legion rules the better they are.

The Luna Wolves and World Eater rules seem like some of the worst legion-specific rules in the game, tbh.

I don't think they are though. The Ultramarines are decent, but they aren't mind blowing. And some of the better ones are from the second book. I think it's just they were a bit over cautious on the first book and they've been relatively balanced since then.

Where would you rank the Luna Wolve/ World Eater legion rules in the greater scheme of 30K factions?

I wasn't disagreeing with that, just the idea that the newer the legion, the better the rules. I think it's just the first book that is weak, not that there's been any power creep through the whole series.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
I think BA have a pretty good Relic. Iniative AP2 with Fear, Blind, Fleshbane and Soulblaze. Not sure how I feel about picking a faction for it's Relic though.

Well I'll tell you then - you should feel awful about it!

Heh yeah, that's why I'm looking at White Scars mainly, I loved the fact they smashed through the traitor legions by themselves on Terra

But I'm looking at Salamanders fluff and it's all...ugh too many to pick from.

Well not by themselves, it was them, the Imperial Fists and the Blood Angels on Terra

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
I think BA have a pretty good Relic. Iniative AP2 with Fear, Blind, Fleshbane and Soulblaze. Not sure how I feel about picking a faction for it's Relic though.

Well I'll tell you then - you should feel awful about it!

Heh yeah, that's why I'm looking at White Scars mainly, I loved the fact they smashed through the traitor legions by themselves on Terra

But I'm looking at Salamanders fluff and it's all...ugh too many to pick from.

Play with allies

I wish, my mates have a strict no allies policy, what with our 40k armies being Thunderdome, Eldar/DE, CentStar, etc...

Gotta keep it clean for HH

 Frozocrone wrote:
I wish, my mates have a strict no allies policy, what with our 40k armies being Thunderdome, Eldar/DE, CentStar, etc...

Gotta keep it clean for HH

No play a legion with another legion as allied detachment

Alpha Legion are probably the top of all the legions thanks to their special rules (and characters) that provide army-wide buffs as well as netting you map control and being a troll to your opponent

I really like the alpha legion stuff its super fluffy but not ridiculously imo. The only things that are stopping me from building a Iron Warriors legion is that firstly, Perturabo doesn't have the circle of iron as a option (hopefully that's just as of now) and secondly, they haven't really gotten the level of detail and gorgeous kits that the other legions have. (Barring the IW comtemptor, sweet emperor it's beautiful)

I also think that the Iron hands are abit overrated, yeah shooting has -1 str but with the prevalence of ridiculous weapons I think it mediocre. Irons also have draw backs associated with it that balances it out as well.

IMO, Imperial Fists, Alpha Legion, and Iron Hands are at the top of the heap. Emperor's Children are at the bottom. Everything else is somewhere inbetween.

That said, I haven't seen the new Ultramarines rules yet.

As others have said, due to the forces all being built around the same list, you can pretty much make any Legion do what you like, mech heavy world eaters, flyer heavy Emps children etc.

But the Legion traits encourage you to play the Legions a certain way.

World eaters are infantry heavy, this takes advantage of their fairly good Legion rules, not great, but not bad.

Iron hands want lots of medium to heavy tanks, iwnd to av13+ and -1 Str against their infantry, this encourages land raiders packed full of infantry, or waves of tough infantry.

Alpha Legion are a combined arms forces, ideally wanting a few units of everything, this allows you to see what your opponent puts down and essentially tailer the Legion trait to what you need, or go full on and take lots of infiltrators.

Raven guard are bat crap crazy, null deploy army that you can place every infantry unit wherever you like after normal deployment to maximise it's effectiveness, army wide infiltrate is amazing, combine this with pride of the Legion and take as many sniper infiltrating veteran squads as you can, perhaps buying the new set eh.

I got more if you guys want it

Pretty sure FW announced that they will be buffing the older legions in the next red book, to bring them up to the power level of the more recent legions. Unlike GW, FW seems to care.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Pretty sure FW announced that they will be buffing the older legions in the next red book, to bring them up to the power level of the more recent legions. Unlike GW, FW seems to care.

SJ

They do plan on revisiting some of the legion specific units. Justaerin termies cost too much for what they do, Phoenix termies desperately need to be WS5, Kakophony pretty much suck, etc.

The best Legion is Raven Guard, as they have an excellent special unit in the Mor Deythan, a fantastic and economical force multiplier HQ in the drop commander, and probably the best Rite of War in 30K as it allows wide access to drop pods without having to pod/deep strike your entire army.

Second best is probably Alpha Legion, as they can be very flexible between their various HQs and mutable tactics. Skorr is cheap as chips and lets you pick your trait. Dynat facilitates potent drop lists (though not as potent as Raven Guard). Alpharius is a huge force multiplier. The Coils rite is mediocre, as you're forced to buy a third tactical squad, and per RAW you essentially need to have all your infantry squads in transports (so no rapiers, etc.). FW has on a number of occasions responded to emails and said you can use mutable tactics (infiltrate) to fulfill the Rite requirement (even though you choose the tactic when you choose warlord trait, long after building the list), which makes it more potent.

All the other Legion-specific rites are pretty much no better than the standard ones, that is to say, mediocre.

Moving further down the ladder, Word Bearers have The Amazing Zardu and can bring Daemon allies, which can introduce all sorts of unusual shenanigans to the proceedings.

Iron Warriors/Iron Hands, and to a lesser extent Imperial Fists, can all make solid infantry-heavy gunlines.

Night Lords and Sons of Horus can make decent assaulty lists. Ultramarines are alright, but essentially a pale shadow of their 40K future selves.

World Eaters, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children suuuuuuuuckkkkkkk.....



Anyway, next summer we are supposedly getting a new red book for the Legions, intended to address some of the imbalances. Personally, I hope they make assault marines and breachers cheaper, so you have more variety of compulsory troop choices. Scorpius probably needs to be at least 25 points more expensive. Typhon should come with all the typical upgrades, and cost 501 points, so you can't bring it at 2000 points.

The next book VI will introduce a new organization style to represent the various shattered legions and blackshields. We are also supposed to get a new rite for every Legion, so that will shake things up.

Book VII should bring Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, and Custodes, and all bets are off.

World Eaters, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children suuuuuuuuckkkkkkk.....

I play WE anyway. They can give every other legion a hard time.

Questoris Knights is the best legion.

 wuestenfux wrote:

World Eaters, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children suuuuuuuuckkkkkkk.....

I play WE anyway. They can give every other legion a hard time.

I agree, world eaters can be extremely good as long as you don't play on boards with no Los blocking scenery, they play the Legion game very differently than all the others, hordes of 15 man despoiler squads and lots of contemptors, backed up by one of the best assault units in the game, red butchers.

If you're looking to seek out the imbalance in 30k, its really the three or four top ones that confer a notable advantage IMO.

When I say "is OP" below, I really mean "can be construed as being OP".

-Alpha Legion: Being able to confer your choice of vicious rules on every Legion Astartes in your army is OP (its worth noting that many of these choices on the Alpha Legion menu would be a better Special Rule than anything many of the legions have access to). Being able to pick any legion-specific unit from any other Legion is OP.

-Iron Hands: -1 Strength to all incoming fire is OP.

-Ravenguard: Being able to Infiltrate the entirity of your army's infantry is OP.

-Imperial Fists: BS5 on all bolt shots when combined with Tank Hunting Heavy Support Squads is bordering on OP.


All that said, imbalance in 30k is a minor annoyance, and does not reach near the level of imbalance in 40k IMO.