Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all,

I've been playing Battle Sisters fairly successfully this edition (a winning record coming off a 15-year hiatus) and I want to start revamping my old Space Marine army. I've decided on White Scars in terms of play style and color scheme (my Sisters are green-on-white, so I can swap doors and turrets on my white Rhinos and run them for the White Scars as well). The consensus here and elsewhere is that their Chapter Tactics and warlord buffs make them pretty awesome. I have acquired some grav bits and a few extra bikes, but mostly I'm reworking old Marine models. I'm looking initially to run a split force in games at 1850 and 2000, and to eventually build up the White Scars to a full army at those point values. I'm looking for advice on how to structure the force: who is primary, which warlord traits & wargear, advantageous formations, and how to stay rules compliant in terms of force organization (detachments, formations, etc.) with an eye toward really exploiting Scout (Bikes and Razors), Outflank (Dominions), and Hit & Run (Seraphim, White Scars). I don't have the Kauyon supplement, so I'm a little unclear on exactly what White Scars are capable of.

The Battle Sisters have the following options: big foot blob with Jacobus, multiple small squads with various loadouts, plenty of priests, 3x melta Dominions in MM Immolator transports, 3x Exorcists, 2x Seraphim with flamers and Celestine, Retributors with Heavy Bolters and Heavy Flamers. All of the tanks can be downgraded to Rhinos or swapped into the White Scars force.

The Marines have plenty of basic troops with good variety, Captain/Librarian/Chaplain, 2x Dreds, Devs with ML or mixed loadout (but no full LC Devs, etc.) 1 Assault squad, 1 Veteran squad, 1 old Deathwatch squad (as Sternguard?), some scout snipers, 3x Landspeeders w/ Typhoon option, 2 Attack Bikes, and about 10 Bikes (4x grav guns). I can also run the Exorcists as Whirlwinds or the Immolators as Rhinos/Razorbacks. I have no termies, drop pods or heavy armor. I will eventually add flyers when this list goes up to 2k.

I was thinking small squads of cheap Sisters as objective campers, Tac squads in LC Razors, outflanking melta Dominions, scouting grav bikes, deep striking Seraphim w/ Celestine, Typhoon speeders, and dreds in some combination... but I'm very open to suggestions. I have six Rhino hulls to work with in total.

What's the best blend of the two armies for an all-comers list that gets right up in your face and then Hit & Runs all over the place? Thanks!

Sisters do the close in fire better then marines. I’d avoid taking tactical marines, and lean on the sisters for troops. If you want a squad hopping out of a rhino to shoot someone off an objective, they do it better and cheeper. Anyrhing melta/flamer/bolter should be left to the ladies.

Focus the marines on the things they can’t do. Long range support, taking down MC/GMC with grav/plas, Hard CC units.

I’m a little fuzzy on the SoB details, as it’s been a while. But something like this:

Split your rhino hulls between dom and BSS squads
Exorcists are going to be a better use of models the WWs, and are nice tanks (assuming your dice are cooperating)
(splash other units as mood/points allow)

Marine side should be a bike force. Tooled up HQ would be nice, but even a humble librarian would work. Two squads of grav bikes. TML/HB speeders are quite nice, and add some needed long range fire. Other stuff can be added as desired.

Basic tactics are the sisters scout and burn tanks, troop squads advance and take objectives/flame survivors. Marines act as troubleshooters, and focus on anything tough a/o 2+ save. Redeploy as needed.

Just my pre-coffee ramblings, hope they help.

The thing you should know is that White Scars only get Scout if Khan is the warlord. The formations out of Kauyon are interesting, one forces pinning checks at a huge detriment to leadership and another forces the opponent to go to ground or move as close as they can in their next movement phase (works well on heavy weapons squads and moving death stars into awkward positions). But the real star is the Hunter's Eye, a relic that costs as much as a Grav gun and Melta Bomb gives the bearer +1 bs and his unit Ignores Cover. A cheap librarian in a Grav command squad is really devastating.

Excellent advice. It sounds more like this is a White Scars force with Sisters allies than the other way around. Khan as warlord with multiple scouting grav bike squads, plus outflanking Sisters with ignores cover melta, backed up by Exorcists and LC Dreds

Is there are way to get away with no Tac squads in the Marines list? I can see that Sisters do power armor / rapid fire bolters cheaper and, with Acts of Faith and/or priests, possibly even better than Marines, but is there a way in an allied force to get Bikes as Troops to eliminate that minimum requirement? I'd imagined I would need two Tac squads to get White Scars bikes on the table.

Great detailed comments, just what I'd hoped to get... thanks!

Bike Squads have the mounted assault rule - if you take an independent character with a bike, Bike Squads change from fast attack to troops. You don't have to take any tacticals or scouts. You might be better of with White Scars as allies, since that could let you take 2 bikes squads as troops, another as fast attack and a command squad on bikes in the elite slot - all in an allied detachment if you so need.

Maybe something like St Celestine, 2x BSS in Rhinos with Flamers, 3x Dominions in Immos with Melta, 3x Exorcists and then a ML2 Libriarian on Bike with a combi grav and the Ignore Cover relic, 2x Bike Squads with Grav Guns, Command Squad on Bikes with 4x Grav Guns and Apothecary. Celestine joins with the Comand squad to give some CC punch and I7 Hit and Run, youve got low AP, ignores cover out the wazoo, and the Exorcists provide long range high strength/ low AP fire.

Okay, so that sounds like Khan as Warlord (granting Scout and Bikes-as-Troops), a Bike Command w/ Apothecary and grav guns, 2 more Bike squads with grav guns, and maybe some Landspeeder Typhoons for extra ranged AP. That's an HQ, 2 Troops and a Fast, so a legit primary detachment, right? Do I want combi-grav on those as well?

Supplement that with MSU Sisters for objectives, Immo Doms to tear up the backfield, Exos for ranged AP, and either Jacobus + blob or Celestine + Seraphim depending on the scenario... hopefully that's an army that moves fast, hits hard, and makes good use of H&R.

Am I worried about ObSec with this crew? I've never played with other than a pure Sisters army with tons of Troops, so I'm not sure what I'm losing in that regard. I have struggled when the Doms and Seraphim are all that's left after coming on late or cleaning up flanks.

Buy some pods for your melta doms and heavy flamer retributors out of the marine FA slots, less points than immos and easier to get into range with turn 1 on long deployment.

I'd skip the typhoon for a 3rd pod, but they work for some people.

If you want to continue the speeder theme, scouts in a landspeeder storm with a heavy flamer or multimelta are pretty good troops and fit the theme too.

This is basically what I run for Imperial armies, too, except with Iron Hands instead of White Scars (for mostly "oh hey, they get a spare 6+ too" reasons, not any kind of powergamery or fluff, exactly).

ObSec isn't extraordinarily important if you can clear the objectives and get to the uncontested ones quickly, which a bikes-and-pods force can do. H&R, skillfully used, could get you a bunch of bonus movement too, which would let you reach objectives that an opponent might not expect you to be able to.

Also, keep in mind 7e force org vice 6e - you can actually run a CAD of Marines with a CAD of Sisters. You're not limited to an Allied Detachment for either one, as long as you're willing to pay the HQ + two troops tax on both - and since you want both Sisters in Rhinos and Marines on Bikes, you're gonna be taking that anyway.

You can also use a Land Raider or a Stormraven as an effective delivery method for Jacobus + Sisters Repentia. I'm not sure if you're interested in them or not, but that unit can be a nasty surprise for folks who've never seen them before, and the assault transport seriously mitigates the squishiness issue.

Okay, here's a 2000 point all-comers list based on the discussion so far:

Whites Scars CAD (Primary Detachment w/ Warlord)
Khan on Moondrakken - 150
Command (5) w/ Bikes, Apothecary, 4x Grav - 200
Bike Squad (3), 2x Grav - 93
Bike Squad (3), 2x Grav - 93

Adepta Sororitas CAD
Jacobus - 100
Celestine - 135
Priests (1 w/ Litanies, 1 w/ Maul) - 80
BSS (5), 3x Storm Bolters - 75
BSS (9), F/HF/Combi-Flamer, Rhino, Laud Hailer
Dominions (5), 4x Melta, MM Immo - 165
Dominions (5), 4x Melta, MM Immo - 165
Seraphim (5), 2x Twin Hand Flamers - 125
Retributers (8), 4x HF, Rhino, Laud Hailer - 186
Exorcist - 125
Exorcist - 125

The general vision is this: Jacobus and the priest w/ maul ride with the HF Rets in their Rhino, and the priest w/ Litanies rides with the F/HF BSS in their Rhino. Scouting Doms in their Immos lead the two Rhinos up the field and try to pop transports. Rhinos follow with lots of flame templates and extra support for AoFs and assault from the priests. The small BSS camps a backfield objective and gets extra 24" shots from the storm bolters. Celestine and the Seraphim either DS to clear objectives or support the Rhino squads in close combat. Exos deal with long range threats or pop transports if the Doms fail to do so. Grav bikers either scout or outflank to deliver lots of grav shooting and to keep the Sisters from getting ruined in close combat. It's a little light on ObSec, but should be able to move quickly up the field, pick most battles, H&R into favorable matchups, and between the enhanced saves on the Sisters and T5 on the bikes, have enough staying power to last the game.

Opinions and suggestions most welcome... also curious about Scout moves vs. Outflank with so many options in this list.

This is exactly what I've been doing with my SoB lately, but with librarian on bike with the hunters eye. So good in the command with grav.

And a pod for the HF rets, it's just really good.

I don’t play sisters, but the squad with the 3 SBs strikes me as a waste. It might just be that I’m conditioned by marines, but out SBs are pretty much never worth the points.

Overall looks like a fun list.

I'd agree on that one, about the storm bolters. I'd set up both squads with flamer/heavy flamer/melta bombs. The melta bombs are mostly for reserve capability, while the combi-flamer is unlikely to be terribly useful except as an emergency overwatch tool.

I'm somewhat unsure what the point of the second priest is, other than to get a second war hymn. Personally, I'd instead put Simulacra Imperiales in your Ret and Sister squads so you can use the AoF again. Preferred enemy with flamers is seriously nasty.

thats simple you dont, white scars work best when they work with other white scars. allies cut into their points on more bikes

Awesome, thanks everyone!

I'm about 50/50 on the storm bolters myself. Due to the points, it's going to be a minimum squad with no transport, otherwise another F/HF would probably be the call. If I can pick up another Rhino, I could mirror the other F/HF squad instead of bringing the Seraphim. The storm bolters aren't terrible in my experience... unlike Marines, Sisters aren't better off charging into assault. For 75 points, I get five suits of power armor that can fire 8 S4 shots at 24", once with Preferred Enemy. Not only have they scored me a few VPs sitting on a backfield objective, they've also surprised deep strikers (usually Sternguard) in my deployment zone by peeling off a few casualties... they're almost never the target (usually DSers are going after my Exorcists), but they can force a few saves from a distance and generally be a nuisance.

On priests... well, this is sort of their last chance. I had been running Jacobus, the Litanies, and the Maul in a big blob of Sisters and they never seemed to do much other than deny an objective, assuming they manage to get to one. The Maul hardly ever gets used, but it is nice having AoFs go off automatically with the Litanies. In this set up with the Rhinos, Jacobus grants an extra use for the Rets, and the Litanies ensure that one goes off in a timely manner for the BSS, although I could see a Simulacrum being as good or better. The maul priest... he's just a cool conversion that really wants to contribute instead of sitting in the box, and I'm hoping having a transport gives him the chance. When these squads do get charged-- which they always do because of the flamer range-- the priests help prop them up a bit with some re-rolls, and Zealot plus Jake's banner gives them a good first round of combat. If I ditch the priests altogether, that's enough to bring the small backfield squad up to full and almost buy them a Rhino, which is something to think about.

On not using Sisters in favor of more Marines... well, I'm adding White Scars to an existing Sororitas force, not the other way around. I only had 5 bikes to start, and I just bought 6 more. Eventually I'll grow the Marines a unit at a time, getting into some of the new White Scars formations and maybe only maintaining the melta Doms as allies in the end, but that's a long way off.

I guess the SB sisters are kinda like a sniper scout squad then. Camp the home objective, randomly harass things. If you are not planning on moving them, you might want to consider a HB.

It's worth remembering that Uriah Jacobus is a priest himself, with all the same abilities. A second priest could be useful if you want a second War Hymn working at the same time, though. Rerolling saves and wounds can seriously tip the balance in your favor.

Your list looks OK, but I don't think you make as much use of the sisters part as you could. Really, you've only got the one unit to snag objectives. Mind, I've not got tons of sisters games in, so I'm just theory-hammering here.

I'd make both squads as small as possible and put them in rhinos, repressors, or immolators.

I feel like Jac and Celestine are mutually exclusive and you really only need one since they are both kinda pricey. Jac and retributors is pretty sexy though, but if you go this way, you'd want to give the rets a simulacrum to get 3 turns of rending HB/HFs. On that note, thoughts on HB vs HF? If you get lots of HF troops sisters, I vote HBs to give you more options in terms of range.

Regarding your scars CAD: how serious are you about beefing up this component of your list? An option is to take the reclusiam command squad, a chaplain, a command squad, and a razorback. The mandatory razorback does not preclude you from taking bikes as an upgrade for the squad, and you can put the hunters eye on the chaplain, making those grav guns ignore cover. It's cheaper than what you're running, but you lose 2 grav guns, scout, and 2 obsec bike squads (which will be VERY high priority targets thanks to their guns).

Legit point on the priests issue... I'm going to rework the list with just Jacobus in the Ret squad and two minimum F/HF squads in Rhinos to see how that plays points-wise.

On the expansion of the White Scars... good questions. I do need to get the Hunter's Eye in there ASAP; who should wear it? Chaplain or Librarian? Neither is available on a bike at the moment, so I'll need to work some conversion magic. What is everyone's preference?

On a similar note, I'll need to convert (or buy the one model that's close) for Khan on a bike, but I'm also hearing good things about the Chapter Master and Captain. In this configuration-- a smaller bike-focused force, with scouting already covered by the Sisters-- should I wait on Khan for a full Scars army, give up scout for now, and get some combination of CM or Captain with Glaive, Eternal Warrior, or some other clever wargear?

Finally, which Scars units do I target next? I own and can build out a unit of 2 attack bikes and a unit of 3 Land Speeders with Typhoon launchers. I can see from Kauyon that a scout bike squad and a LS Storm both unlock some cool formations, and I have the budget for those. Also, more bikes as needed... what should I prioritize? I'm thinking Celestine and the Seraphim will be the first units to phase out as more White Scars join...

MacPhail wrote:
Okay, here's a 2000 point all-comers list based on the discussion so far:

Whites Scars CAD (Primary Detachment w/ Warlord)
Khan on Moondrakken - 150
Command (5) w/ Bikes, Apothecary, 4x Grav - 200
Bike Squad (3), 2x Grav - 93
Bike Squad (3), 2x Grav - 93

Adepta Sororitas CAD
Jacobus - 100
Celestine - 135
Priests (1 w/ Litanies, 1 w/ Maul) - 80
BSS (5), 3x Storm Bolters - 75
BSS (9), F/HF/Combi-Flamer, Rhino, Laud Hailer
Dominions (5), 4x Melta, MM Immo - 165
Dominions (5), 4x Melta, MM Immo - 165
Seraphim (5), 2x Twin Hand Flamers - 125
Retributers (8), 4x HF, Rhino, Laud Hailer - 186
Exorcist - 125
Exorcist - 125

The general vision is this: Jacobus and the priest w/ maul ride with the HF Rets in their Rhino, and the priest w/ Litanies rides with the F/HF BSS in their Rhino. Scouting Doms in their Immos lead the two Rhinos up the field and try to pop transports. Rhinos follow with lots of flame templates and extra support for AoFs and assault from the priests. The small BSS camps a backfield objective and gets extra 24" shots from the storm bolters. Celestine and the Seraphim either DS to clear objectives or support the Rhino squads in close combat. Exos deal with long range threats or pop transports if the Doms fail to do so. Grav bikers either scout or outflank to deliver lots of grav shooting and to keep the Sisters from getting ruined in close combat. It's a little light on ObSec, but should be able to move quickly up the field, pick most battles, H&R into favorable matchups, and between the enhanced saves on the Sisters and T5 on the bikes, have enough staying power to last the game.

Opinions and suggestions most welcome... also curious about Scout moves vs. Outflank with so many options in this list.

No Storm Bolters!

Put dominion in Rhinos. Points saves are ablative wounds earned. Immolators are often on the move more than 6" and the guys inside can fire as surely as the cannon on top can if it doesn't. So it's of LIMITED usefulness to spend the extra points on an Immolator. Popular? Yup. Best used if your unit is 5 Battle Sisters with no upgrades. At that point: no brainer. Great midfield annoyance and can affect the battle from a RELATIVELY safe perch later in games.

Add a sgt with a combi flamer to the Seraphim.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Bike Squads have the mounted assault rule - if you take an independent character with a bike, Bike Squads change from fast attack to troops. You don't have to take any tacticals or scouts. You might be better of with White Scars as allies, since that could let you take 2 bikes squads as troops, another as fast attack and a command squad on bikes in the elite slot - all in an allied detachment if you so need.

Maybe something like St Celestine, 2x BSS in Rhinos with Flamers, 3x Dominions in Immos with Melta, 3x Exorcists and then a ML2 Libriarian on Bike with a combi grav and the Ignore Cover relic, 2x Bike Squads with Grav Guns, Command Squad on Bikes with 4x Grav Guns and Apothecary. Celestine joins with the Comand squad to give some CC punch and I7 Hit and Run, youve got low AP, ignores cover out the wazoo, and the Exorcists provide long range high strength/ low AP fire.

Yeah some variation on this would be your best bet. SOB units that have a space marine equivalent are significantly better than that equivalent, believe it or not. Exorcists destroy predators in value, Immolators make razorbacks look ridiculous, Battle Sisters are everything Tacs wish they could be; exploit the additional point efficiency in these units to make a rounded force. And Celestine has awesome benefits for any bike army, attach her to a biker squad and you now have a fearless biker blob and a 6 wound WS 7 IN 7 T5 S5 ap3 model for 135 points. Put her with someone with AP2 to eat challenges and watch her shred whole squads without retaliation. (Celestine still gets her AOF because she's dead when it goes off so she's not part of the squad anymore. Don't worry it will NEVER get FAQ'd even under ITC)


As for Jancoran, I have to disagree, immolators are the way to go with dominions if you don't have repressors because shooting 2 melta shots out of the front of the rhino isn't good enough. Yes it has the same efficacy as the MM turret but it doesn't matter, that's not what they're for. Dominions in a immo with a good scout move have a 36 inch threat range and a 30 inch melta range at the start of the game and the only time you'd be moving the vehicle more than 6 inches is if there was nothing in that threat range, which makes the turret's 24" range relevant. Even coming in off the board edge they have 24 solid inches. They are an alphastrike unit, plain and simple. They roll up, nuke your land raider with 6 melta shots in melta range, and then die while the Immo runs away. Running rhino attrition it would be better to take basic battle sisters with double melta because they'd do the same thing but cheaper. Beyond that, ANYTHING with ignores cover is going to be a HUGE fire magnet. Anyone who plays against sisters frequently is also going to know that Dominions need to die first, then exorcists, then Seraphim, then BSS. Against a good opponent you'll lose your dominions to the first turn of shooting regardless.

One last edit, you have to take 5 bikes in a squad for them to count as troops.

Really fabulous advice, everyone. I hadn't considered Celestine running with Bikes, but that will be fun to try. Despite some valid points, I'm going to run the storm bolters as objective campers for now, but I've dropped the priest w/ Litanies in favor of a Simulacrum, and dropped the Seraphim altogether for the bike option. Jacobus and the Maul priest will ride with the HF Rets and the F/HF/CF BSS respectively, and both units now have 2 uses of their AoF plus War Hymns for extra resiliency. With the points saved, I added an ML2 Librarian on a bike with the Hunter's Eye to give the command bikes ignore cover.

With 13 points left... combi-flamer for the Rets or one of the Doms, combi-grav on the Librarian, or melta-bombs for both small bike squads? Also, would Khan's 150 points be better spent on a bike captain loaded for melee?

I just checked my digital Marines codex... no 5-bike minimum for troop status, only an 8+1 requirement for combat squads. Please let me know if I'm looking in the wrong place!

Whites Scars CAD (Primary Detachment w/ Warlord)
Khan on Moondrakken - 150
Librarian w/ ML2, Bike, Hunter's Eye - 130
Command (5) w/ Bikes, Apothecary, 4x Grav - 200
Bike Squad (3), 2x Grav - 93
Bike Squad (3), 2x Grav - 93

Adepta Sororitas CAD
Jacobus - 100
Celestine - 135
Priest w/ Maul - 40
BSS (5), 3x Storm Bolters - 75
BSS (9), F/HF/Combi-Flamer, Simulacrum, Rhino, Laud Hailer - 193
Dominions (5), 4x Melta, MM Immo - 165
Dominions (5), 4x Melta, MM Immo - 165
Retributers (9), 4x HF, Rhino, Laud Hailer - 198
Exorcist - 125
Exorcist - 125

ERJAK wrote:

As for Jancoran, I have to disagree, immolators are the way to go with dominions if you don't have repressors because shooting 2 melta shots out of the front of the rhino isn't good enough. Yes it has the same efficacy as the MM turret but it doesn't matter, that's not what they're for. Dominions in a immo with a good scout move have a 36 inch threat range and a 30 inch melta range at the start of the game and the only time you'd be moving the vehicle more than 6 inches is if there was nothing in that threat range, which makes the turret's 24" range relevant. Even coming in off the board edge they have 24 solid inches. They are an alphastrike unit, plain and simple. They roll up, nuke your land raider with 6 melta shots in melta range, and then die while the Immo runs away. Running rhino attrition it would be better to take basic battle sisters with double melta because they'd do the same thing but cheaper. Beyond that, ANYTHING with ignores cover is going to be a HUGE fire magnet. Anyone who plays against sisters frequently is also going to know that Dominions need to die first, then exorcists, then Seraphim, then BSS. Against a good opponent you'll lose your dominions to the first turn of shooting regardless.

One last edit, you have to take 5 bikes in a squad for them to count as troops.

I'll tell you why this is limited. The Dominion only go first 50% of the time. So you're spending points on an immolator with the stated justification here that going 36" is what they are 'for". I suppose 50% of the time that won't be entirely innacurate but it's also... here's the important bit... ture only 50% of the time.

Here you say that "Yes it has the same efficacy as the MM turret". You're correct... 100% of the time! Going first OR second, you get that utility.

You also kind of understate how often you'd want to move 12" but Maelstrom objectives make this a lot more likely given that you want the boots on the ground killing things and they can get there a lot less easily than the transports. So i think you're really under selling how often those Immolators will want ot be in motion.

ONE more shot SOMETIMES isn't a bad thing. But it is certainly not a strong underlying assumption to make when planning how you will play the force. So I won't say that the Immolator never makes good on its promise. It certainly can, and in the case, here again, of normal Battle Sisters it probably is good. I just don't think Dominions are better off this way. The Immolator ALSO cant make its weapon ignore cover like the Rhino bound Dominion can.

One last point. When a heldrake or similar horror shows up, the last place you want to be is out of the transport. I'd rather have the option to jump back in to avoid ghetting hit and make the enemy kill my rhino FIRST while still getting my two shots that potentially ignore cover!

A lot of good reasons exist but I really prefer the rhino. Not because its the perfect choice all the time but because its the better choice more times than it isn't.