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Okay..... I'm going to be doing a daemons force for a Horus Heresy army, and need to start figuring out what I can, and should, put into it.
My first list is probably going to be a 'what I can easily buy' construction - I can get 1500 points nicely by buying two 'start collecting' boxes and a big guy.

I'm going with Nurgle.....which seems a bit weird initially, since the 'big show' with daemons is Signus, which was Slaanesh/Khorne, but the problem is that I can't make myself like Bloodletters and Daemonettes as models - they're too spindly.

I'm most likely going to get the Scabiathrax model to use for Cor'bax - it's such a nice model for any Great Unclean One, and I feel justified using it for anything from a basic Great Unclean One, to Cor'bax, up to actually using it as Scabiathrax himself if I take a Leviathan detachment. By comparison, I don't think the Cor'bax model is that great. The only other model I might be tempted to use is the Glottkin (sans riders).



The initial list - 1500 points


HQ

Cor'bax Utterblight
- One of the big joys of a Daemons Of The Ruinstorm army is the ability to take Samus or Cor'bax as HQ choices instead of Lords Of War - they're damn nasty and can probably slap stupid anything short of a Primarch. Of course, Cor'bax costs about as much as a Primarch, too, so he'd better pull his weight. Definitely a Deep Strike Reserve kind of guy.

Herald Of Nurgle, Greater Daemonic Reward, Lesser Daemonic Reward, Greater Locus Of Fecundity, Daemonic Psyker Mastery Level 2, Grotti The Nurgling
Herald Of Nurgle, Greater Daemonic Reward, Lesser Daemonic Reward, Greater Locus Of Fecundity, Daemonic Psyker Mastery Level 2, The Bell Of The End Of The World
- Each one gets one Biomancy and one Plague power. Over the top on upgrades, but (at least for the moment) I'm short of models, so it's not like I have options. The Bell is one of the best upgrades going - in an army which universally causes fear, in a game where that actually matters (unlike 'normal' 40k), an army-wide -1Ld ability is amazing. At least one of those rewards will swap out for an Aetherblade, because you're not going to get very far against a marine army which invariably has sergeants clad in artificer plate. Will join the Plaguebearers and deep strike in with them and Cor'bax

Troops

10 Plaguebearers, Plagueridden, Lesser Daemonic Reward, Plague Banner, Instrument Of Chaos
10 Plaguebearers, Plagueridden, Lesser Daemonic Reward, Plague Banner, Instrument Of Chaos
- I'll be honest. Plaguebearers - even with Feel No Pain - are not going to survive a Fury Of The Legion rapid-fire burst from a tactical squad in meaningful numbers. They are, at best, a delivery system for the Plagueridden and the Herald - plus a one-use Poisoned (2+) buff for stabbing someone if the banner survives into combat too. The Banners and Instruments give me a lot more control over reserves than most armies - passing one reserve roll lets me bring a second unit in, and (unlike teleport homers, etc) one unit can position itself off another deep striking unit's banner - it doesn't need to be on the table the previous turn. Combined with the Primaris Plague power (a nasty poisoned AP3 template witchfire) and they can hopefully do some fair damage before inevitably getting shot to buggery.

3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings
- Infiltrate into cover, onto objectives and keep your tiny, squishy heads down. Here endeth your contribution to the battle.

Fast Attack[/u]

3 Plague Drones - Plaguebringer, Greater Daemonic Reward, Plague Banner, Venom Stings
3 Plague Drones - Plaguebringer, Greater Daemonic Reward, Plague Banner, Venom Stings
- Start on the board and buzz up towards the enemy, via cover if possible. Hopefully, that'll give me icons somewhere near the enemy by the time my reserves turn up. Even if not, they're relatively competent in a fight - the Venom Sting's one "instant death" attack combined with a Master Crafted, AP2 weapon means that the Plaguebringer can at least make the inevitable Praetors nervous, even if he'll probably lose more often than he wins.




The ultimate goal is to bulk out the units/add a few more with at least one more 'starter' box, and probably some plague toad "beasts of nurgle". The other big thing I want to get is the Finecast Nurgle Daemon Prince - painted up with what's left of his armour as Pre-Heresy Death Guard, he'd look perfect for Grulgor. Of course, a footslogging daemon prince has a tendancy to get shot to hell before he gets anywhere, but I don't think he'd look right with wings.

I'm less happy with the Dark Mechanicum-esque stuff; I'm not sure that Plague Hulks and Blight Drones 'feel right' in a heresy army when the Dark Mechanicum hasn't really got going yet, although they are amazingly pretty models. Possibly soulgrinders converted from something else might work - they are essentially possessed carcasses of armoured vehicles; the 'generic' model is clearly a Defiler (which hasn't been invented yet) but there's no reason in theory it couldn't occupy the shell of something else.


The army will play differently to 40k daemons. No access to Malefic Daemonology means no summoning shenanigans, and also no easy access to Cursed Earth. On the other hand, Fear goes from one of the most useless rules in 40k to potentially game-tipping; even legion elites can find themselves at WS1 versus Nurglings, and with the Bell on hand it's not too unlikely.

I thought daemons were only allies for use with Word Bearers. Did something change to allow them to be stand alone?

The Daemon Princes of the Ruinstorm have the 'Lord of the Ruinstorm' special rule that implies that they can be (as in order to function it requires a Primary Detachment of Daemons).

Excerpt from how the rule appears of Samus's entry:

If Samus is selected in an army which uses Codex: Chaos Daemons as its Primary Detachment in Age of Darkness games, Samus may be counted as a HQ choice rather than as a Lords of War choice.

Precisely. Cor'bax has the same rule.

They have limitations - if you want to take them in an Age of Darkness game you must use the normal rules for such:

- You must use an Age of Darkness force organisation chart - i.e. only troops are scoring, no objective secured or other silliness, any more than any other army.

- You cannot use allies. Daemons do not appear on the Allies matrix, hence they cannot take allies. They can be taken as allies by those armies which specifically allow it, but a Primary Detachment of them can't take allies of its own.

- You cannot use Malefic Daemonology. That discipline is restricted in Age of Darkness games to those characters with a specific permission to use it (Word Bearers Librarians, Lorgar Transfigured, Zardu Layak, and Imperialis Militia Rogue Psykers), which Daemons don't have. Which prevents you spamming the Primaris power Summoning, removing one of the more objectionable abilities of Daemons in 'normal' 40k.

Technically Daemons probably can use Malefic because the wording states that models with it on their profile can use it and the 7th Ed Daemons FaQ added Daemonolgy to the powers they can generate.
At the very least the FaQ would allow Fateweaver to, as it specifically adds Malefic to his 'Two Heads of Fate' rule.

Although I can see the arguments on both sides, I would say 30k daemons can use maelific. They have access as per the faq and there's no statment to say they can't use it.
Saying that, it could be worth checking out the new nurgle powers in the wulfen expansion, they look fun.


Although the chronology is questionable(not that that should matter for daemons ) I would love to see plague hulks and blight drones in a 30k daemon army.


I kinda like CorBax, (except for his rules) but each to their own.

I would like to see a reference to why daemons cant use malefic daemonology. It was my undestanding that the horus heresy uses 7th edition rules, pretty sure it is stated in the red book that it uses the current edition ruleset.

As to the new daemon powers, they look pretty tasty the artifacts are pretty good too.

It was my undestanding that the horus heresy uses 7th edition rules, pretty sure it is stated in the red book that it uses the current edition ruleset.

May need to double-check if things have been updated, but essentially:

1) The Original Legion Army List gave librarians access to "any discipline"

2) 7th edition came out, adding daemonology (and FAQ-ing that discipline into pretty much any army)

3) The next Horus Heresy core book said "but not you" - essentially saying that in Age Of Darkness Games, psykers may not use Daemonology unless they are [list of exceptions*]" - someone else can find the reference; my book is at home....

Whilst the Daemon codex - if you include the FAQ - is allowed daemonology, when playing an Age of Darkness game I would play it that they're not; it's a limitation not of the codex but of the specific game or scenario, like not being able to deep strike in Kill Team, despite every Daemon having Deep Strike as a default special rule.



* critically not including daemons, despite daemons being a legal option in Age of Darkness games at the time - the Word Bearers could have a Daemon Allied detachment.

Whilst daemons are legal, they are not an age of darkness publication. I see the maelific clarification more as a faq to apply maelific permissions to the heresy books.

locarno24 wrote:

3) The next Horus Heresy core book said "but not you" - essentially saying that in Age Of Darkness Games, psykers may not use Daemonology unless they are [list of exceptions*]" - someone else can find the reference; my book is at home....

Whilst the Daemon codex - if you include the FAQ - is allowed daemonology, when playing an Age of Darkness game I would play it that they're not; it's a limitation not of the codex but of the specific game or scenario, like not being able to deep strike in Kill Team, despite every Daemon having Deep Strike as a default special rule.

The updated rules say this:

As a result, unless specifically noted in their entry, Malefic Daemonology psychic powers are not available to any model with psychic powers.

The following units found in our previously printed Horus Heresy books have access to Malefic Daemonolody:

Space Marine Librarians with the Legiones Astartes (Word Bearers) special rule.

The Primarch Lorgar, but only when using the Lorgar Transfigured upgrade.

As the FaQ updated the entries of every Daemon Psyker to use Daemonology, the only arguemnt that can be made is that it doesn't specifically say Malefic.
However Daemons can't use Santic...

At the very least though, Fateweaver can use Malefic because the FaQ updated 'Two Head of Fate' to include Daemonology (Malefic) specifically.

So then unless people say that FAQs are no longer valid, daemons can use maleifc daemonology because the FAQ alters their unit entry to include the use of malefic

Generally speaking codex rules trump BRB. As a FAQ is specifically an amendment of its relevant codex, we can therefore conclude that the rules of the Daemon codex would trump the rules of the 30K BRB.