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Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Maybe they won't remove Slaanesh from the setting, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they never released another new Slaanesh miniature.
I wouldn't be surprised if any/all of the following happened:
-No new CSM Codex this year
-No new CSM codex this edition
-Next CSM codex contains nerfs
-CSM model lines are not updated, just added to
-CSM model lines aren't even added to
-CSM remains incapable of fielding effective unit combinations
-SM get an update to directly counter the upcoming CSM supplement update
-CSM gets pushed further into the back of the fluff
-Various Chaossy things get retconned
-Some antsy GW exec misguidedly tries to boost CSM sales by forcing an overworked ultrasmurf fanboy author to write a really crappy book about CSM -8th Edition is even moar shooty/psychic/synergy focused
-8E CSM codex maintains pre-5E paradigms
-8E CSM codex pretends that new gakky daemon engines are still the next best thing
It's pretty depressing that there's nothing there I can say is definitely an exaggeration.
*warms hands on the pre-emptive feeling of rage*
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/10 17:41:53
Well, spess mureenz already got the ability to rock a 2++ rerollable invuln save now, while chaos gets some crappy powers and I can almost bet their 'decuriean' will be like the IG one; too much tax to be useful.
I don't even care. The game is unplayable in its current state. 4th-5th edition rules and codexes will still play far better than whatever they manage to come out with.
GW can make the greatest, most favorable updates to csm in the new codex, but it's just going to be from throwing more bs special rules and special weapons, etc to further screw up the game.
Probably a s11, apocalyptic blast, ignores cover, ignores invuln, pistol, ap2 death ray or something. Everyone will cry about it, but will demand it gets fixed by giving their preferred army something even bigger and dumber.
I can't be bothered to care much.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/10 18:27:32
If it happens in 7th edition it will follow the Ork/IG codices, IE they will get small buffs in units that are HORRIBLY under powered, these buffs wont' help them much but will at least appear to help CSM. Any unit that is currently considered to be functional, dare we say good?, either way, if it doesn't suck it will be nerfed either with points hike or removing certain rules from it. (IE Killa Kanz,35pts a model to 50 points a model)
You will receive 1-3 new units, one of which might actually be usable the rest will languish in obscurity or collecting dust on your book shelves because they are unplayable with how bad they are (IE Mork/Gorkanaut)
Some idiot fan boyz will begin screaming that your codex is so OP cheese that they can't believe GW wrote that garbage, this will continue for about a year before everyone realizes that they were in fact wrong and nothing about your codex is good, you will then suffer for a few years before 8th edition is released and begin praying again for a playable codex.
Now if the CSM codex is released in 8th edition, they or the tyranids will be the 1st released and both will serve as bench marks for the upcoming Edition, by that I mean they will be nerfed into obscurity because GW realized the error of their ways and now understand that an arms race isn't going to be good for the game over the long run.
About 3-4 codex's into this edition GW will realize nobody is buying the crap they just put out, and instead of putting rational thought into why this is happening they will instead ramp up all future codex releases power levels to even higher levels of gak, (IE Ork codex being Meh, followed by Necrons, Eldar, SM and Tau, GG)
Either way, I will still love my Chaos bottom tier brothers and will continue to have good competitive games against them.
Some idiot fan boyz will begin screaming that your codex is so OP cheese that they can't believe GW wrote that garbage, this will continue for about a year before everyone realizes that they were in fact wrong and nothing about your codex is good, you will then suffer for a few years before 8th edition is released and begin praying again for a playable codex.
I still have to explain to my UM friend that standard Chaos Marines are NOT point-for-point better than SM Tacticals.
He still complains that the current CSM dex is OP, ignoring how it is pretty much unplayable. I can't get past how the boon table pretty much negates my ability to tell a story with my CSM characters. 40k is only good for stories now...
It's like a whole chunk of the 40k playerbase has some form of CSM = OP memetic afflicting them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/10 19:37:57
Selym wrote: I can't get past how the boon table pretty much negates my ability to tell a story with my CSM characters. 40k is only good for stories now...
But it's not your characters' story. How can it be when they die every game? The story is actually about your opponent's characters and how they heroically vanquish your dudes. And each game represents new your dudes which replace the old your dudes who all died last game, which is fine because your dudes are always faceless mooks and who gives a feth about their story anyway, amirite?
Loyalists will always claim that our book is OP, because they're still upset about how we won the Eye of Terror campaign when we apparently weren't supposed too...
Up until the local store I played at closed up shop due to lack of business, I'd regularly have to endure cries of;
- Helturkies w/Baleflamer should cost at least 250pts.
- Oblits = better Centurions.
- Berserkers are better than Death Company.
- Noise Marines are OP due to MSU squads w/Blastmaster.
- Plaguemarines should be banned, or else nerfed to no longer to be T5/FnP Troops option.
- Warptalons are fine...
(Yes, I've actually gotten flak, and accusations of being a TFG/WaaC'er because a squad of Warptalons allied to my Tzeentch Daemons chopped apart some Smurfy Grav Devs. )
- Flying DP's are super cheese, especially when you give them the Burning Brand and run Telepathy for added Psy Shriek shooting.
Loyalist players are whiniest, most over-entitled spoiled players I've ever met... I have better times playing against Eldar than I do the local Speesh Mehreen brats.
I know that not all Loyalist players are such, but the vast majority I've dealt with, especially at the local store level, (both LGS & local GW store), are some of the worst gakkers I've ever played against.
Every single time Chaos gets something even remotely threatening, there's immediate cries to nerf the ever living hell out of it. But when Loyalists turn around and steal all of our unique toys, it's totally fluffy & at best just average power level.
At least the local Grey Knight players can't Warp Quake entire tables anymore though...
As for our next codex? We won't get one. GW will instead just continue to let our model line rot away, and let happily let us become the "new" SoB army, simply because fixing Chaos Marines at this point is simply too much of a financial risk.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: All CSM units treat other CSM units as Come the Apocalypse allies. Because with CSM it's all apocalypse all the time!
Ohhhhh......that would be super fluffy! They could call it "War in the Eye": In the Eye of Terror all are back-stabbing traitors with no sense of loyalty. Also screw Legions its Warbands all day everyday!
I'm not that pessimistic actually. It the can give: Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels themed tactical squads. They'll get to us eventually...sometime. Well before Sisters surely. I'm also not expecting an addition change so soon, not that the rules don't need work.
Up until the local store I played at closed up shop due to lack of business, I'd regularly have to endure cries of;
- Helturkies w/Baleflamer should cost at least 250pts.
- Oblits = better Centurions.
- Berserkers are better than Death Company.
- Noise Marines are OP due to MSU squads w/Blastmaster.
- Plaguemarines should be banned, or else nerfed to no longer to be T5/FnP Troops option.
- Warptalons are fine...
(Yes, I've actually gotten flak, and accusations of being a TFG/WaaC'er because a squad of Warptalons allied to my Tzeentch Daemons chopped apart some Smurfy Grav Devs. )
- Flying DP's are super cheese, especially when you give them the Burning Brand and run Telepathy for added Psy Shriek shooting.
Do....do they believe all those points? Let's discuss them.
- Heldrakes were slapped hard with positional fire arcs in 7th edition. As a flyer they very rarely can end up in the ideal spot against targets for their AP 3 flamers as they have to constantly keep moving a minimum range. Furthermore, Vector Strikes got slapped hard to so they're also less effective against armoured targets than before.
- Until I see an Obliterator get access to Grav weapons and the ability to fire two weapons at once....yeah, no.
- I'm giggling at this. I'm really giggling at this. Bwahahahahahahahaahaha. Please, stop, you're killing me.
- MSU is OP, pls nerf, don't mind our Combat Squad rule.
- They really don't know, do they?
- Bwahahahahahahahahahaha.
- But Bikestars are fair and balanced, right?
Up until the local store I played at closed up shop due to lack of business, I'd regularly have to endure cries of;
- Helturkies w/Baleflamer should cost at least 250pts.
- Oblits = better Centurions.
- Berserkers are better than Death Company.
- Noise Marines are OP due to MSU squads w/Blastmaster.
- Plaguemarines should be banned, or else nerfed to no longer to be T5/FnP Troops option.
- Warptalons are fine...
(Yes, I've actually gotten flak, and accusations of being a TFG/WaaC'er because a squad of Warptalons allied to my Tzeentch Daemons chopped apart some Smurfy Grav Devs. )
- Flying DP's are super cheese, especially when you give them the Burning Brand and run Telepathy for added Psy Shriek shooting.
Do....do they believe all those points? Let's discuss them.
- Heldrakes were slapped hard with positional fire arcs in 7th edition. As a flyer they very rarely can end up in the ideal spot against targets for their AP 3 flamers as they have to constantly keep moving a minimum range. Furthermore, Vector Strikes got slapped hard to so they're also less effective against armoured targets than before.
- Until I see an Obliterator get access to Grav weapons and the ability to fire two weapons at once....yeah, no.
- I'm giggling at this. I'm really giggling at this. Bwahahahahahahahaahaha. Please, stop, you're killing me.
- MSU is OP, pls nerf, don't mind our Combat Squad rule.
- They really don't know, do they?
- Bwahahahahahahahahahaha.
- But Bikestars are fair and balanced, right?
Sadly, yes - yes they do.
Back when I ran my IG Lawn Darts army (100% pure Drop Troops! ), I actually had a SW player who argued that it was insanely unfluffy that a single 10 man Infantry squad rapid firing would actually kill a couple of his marines... He insisted that Lasguns shouldn't ever be able to harm Marines, unless they got a special 'Overcharged' rule, that limited them to a single-shot/turn that would hit at S3/ap5.
Sadly, it seems that 'round my neck of the woods, Marines in general tend to attract all the spoiled man-children who can't get past the fact that, shockingly, fluff does not equal rules on the tabletop.
Given the way that chaos was treated in the new release, I predict that the codex will pale in comparison to the regular marines and you'll have to find your chaos marine kicks by playing Horus Heresy.
DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+ Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
Experiment 626 wrote: Loyalists will always claim that our book is OP, because they're still upset about how we won the Eye of Terror campaign when we apparently weren't supposed too...
Up until the local store I played at closed up shop due to lack of business, I'd regularly have to endure cries of;
- Helturkies w/Baleflamer should cost at least 250pts.
- Oblits = better Centurions.
- Berserkers are better than Death Company.
- Noise Marines are OP due to MSU squads w/Blastmaster.
- Plaguemarines should be banned, or else nerfed to no longer to be T5/FnP Troops option.
- Warptalons are fine...
(Yes, I've actually gotten flak, and accusations of being a TFG/WaaC'er because a squad of Warptalons allied to my Tzeentch Daemons chopped apart some Smurfy Grav Devs. )
- Flying DP's are super cheese, especially when you give them the Burning Brand and run Telepathy for added Psy Shriek shooting.
Loyalist players are whiniest, most over-entitled spoiled players I've ever met... I have better times playing against Eldar than I do the local Speesh Mehreen brats.
I know that not all Loyalist players are such, but the vast majority I've dealt with, especially at the local store level, (both LGS & local GW store), are some of the worst gakkers I've ever played against.
Every single time Chaos gets something even remotely threatening, there's immediate cries to nerf the ever living hell out of it. But when Loyalists turn around and steal all of our unique toys, it's totally fluffy & at best just average power level.
No gak.
Actually I'm thankful that alongside SM there are also eldar/tau/necron both at the top and as popular armies.
In 5th there used to be this resonance chamber where SM were the poor little guyz and we non-SM were WAAC nuts. Everybody used to play them and weigh in their buddy to argue and whine against those cheesy combos.
On the other hand... I'll be here, painting daemons and WB hoping to have a functioning codex that allows me to play PA guys in the next year or so.
Meanwhile I'll play KD (having a gakton of fun running a kennel) and WB using the CrimSlaugh and Daemon codex
I play 30k, 40k Loyalist (and am starting daemons soon [hopefully],) and my little sister plays CSM. I make no arguments about your stuff being UP as all get-out, except the Heldrake (which would be amazing in any other codex, to be fair.) Heck, I'm the one that has to argue to the CSM player at one of my local stores that freaking RUBRICS are bad...
Loyalist players are whiniest, most over-entitled spoiled players I've ever met... I have better times playing against Eldar than I do the local Speesh Mehreen brats.
I know that not all Loyalist players are such, but the vast majority I've dealt with, especially at the local store level, (both LGS & local GW store), are some of the worst gakkers I've ever played against.
I have a player in my LGS that thinks the new power to reroll all saves is completely fine and balanced. His reasoning was that Eldar have a better version...Even though eldar are considered master tier cheese.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Swampmist wrote: except the Heldrake (which would be amazing in any other codex, to be fair.)
45 degree firing arc and considered a vehicle with one weapon and no hover? Its a decent unit, but nowhere NEAR 'amazing' level.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/10 23:49:14
03mark87 wrote: I don't even care. The game is unplayable in its current state. 4th-5th edition rules and codexes will still play far better than whatever they manage to come out with.
I can't say that I'm far off from this POV. There was a time that I had cared very much about my CSM. Now, eh.
Good lord in heaven where do you people play that they complain that our book is OP? And why is this only Marine players? I'm sorry to say my brothers but it reeks of bs and envy up in here.
That said, for the next book I can see
- point drops pretty much everywhere
- losing the ability to take Legion specific units as troops
-- formations for legions and warbands from IW to Red Corsairs.
- tzeentch will probably be insane in the psychic phase but will probably still suck donkey nuts at everything else
- really hoping for plastic dreadclaws, but nor holding my breath
- maybe some new dinobots
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/11 08:31:47
Sadly GW broke all our hopes giving us the last update of black legion and crimsom guys, so we will no see a new codex for, at least, one year.
They can argue "hey, you actually had a recent update!!! we need focus on other armies too! "
And of course everyone knows...but the 2 new books suck hard. And they are specially terrible if you compare with the new space marine buff, full of amazing rules and op new powers....
Because meh updates is cool for weak armies and op updates is cool for strong op armies.....at least that is the ideal of GW hahaha. Well, that and make us use possessed xD
I can't decide whether these kind of threads are either depressing or incredibly fun. In any case let's join the melee!
- Abaddon has no arms, so can't use his sword nor the Talon of Horus. Gets a single attack instead, a headbutt that hits automatically, base strenght with no AP. Points cost rise up dramatically because such a snowflake special move has to be paid for.
- Chaos Dreadnoughts (Helbrutes, whatever) now roll a D6 at the beginning of their turn, doesn't matter if they lost hull points previously or not. On a 1, they shoot against their own troops (if no shooting weapons, they are forced to charge). On 2-5 they act normally. On a 6 they explode! Points cost raised to 150.
- Raptors must roll for dangerous terrain every time they move (those backpacks lack maintenance!).
- Same for Bikers, also points raise, they're clearly OP.
- All Chaos transport vehicles now roll 1D3 at the beginning of each turn. The result is the numer of embarked soldiers that are eaten by the vehicle, no save of any kind allowed.
- Marks:
- Mark of Khorne gives models the "maniac" special rule, when not locked in close combat at the beginning of the turn they all attack each other in the unit. If embarked they attack the vehicle, counts as attacks from the rear. Also points raise.
- Mark of Nurgel gives models the "decay" special rule. All models with MoN must pass a Toughness check at the beginning of the turn or suffer a wound inmediately (no saves allowed). Also points raise.
- Mark of Tzeentch gives models the "paranoid" special rule, models must pass a Ld check at the beginning of the movement phase or do nothing for the rest of the turn, as they get paranoid about their schemes and backstabbing. Also points raise.
- Mark of Slaanesh gives models the "too pretty" special rule. All enemy models hate models with the MoS due to being jealous of their beauty. Also points raise.
- The Heldrake's Baleflamer gets nerfed to S4 AP6, it was too powerful before. Also gets hot.
- Last but not least, the whole army gets the "distrustful" special rule. At the beginning of the shooting phase, all units roll Ld. The ones that do not pass it are forced to shoot the closest friendly unit, as they believe betrayal is coming from them.
Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.
GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get.
Dantes_Baals wrote: Good lord in heaven where do you people play that they complain that our book is OP? And why is this only Marine players? I'm sorry to say my brothers but it reeks of bs and envy up in here.
That said, for the next book I can see
- point drops pretty much everywhere
- losing the ability to take Legion specific units as troops
-- formations for legions and warbands from IW to Red Corsairs.
- tzeentch will probably be insane in the psychic phase but will probably still suck donkey nuts at everything else
- really hoping for plastic dreadclaws, but nor holding my breath
- maybe some new dinobots
Ah, I smell new blood that never experienced the 3.5 Chaos Codex and the late 3rd and early 4th edition whining that followed. (Because Siren and Iron Warriors RUINED 40K FOREVER)
Once upon a time Chaos was strong. Some would even say OP - two pages of the 3.5 Codex were particularly broken at the time in which they existed. Siren was a minor psychic power (so couldn't be countered) and basically allowed for a Turn 1 Infilitrate and Assault from a fully kitted up Daemon Prince that couldn't be targetted by shooting attacks at all.
Iron Warriors manipulated the Force Org chart for 1 extra Heavy Support choice at the cost of 2 Fast Attack. And also were able to get more than 1 unit of Obliterators (at the time Obliterators were a 0-1 choice and sat in Elites). In addition they were the only 3.5 CSM army that could take Basilisks or Vindicators. This lead to Oblit Spam, HS spam Iron Warriors being a thing.
Of course, these weren't the reasons that people loved the book (despite what those Imperials who were around at the time would tell you). Heck, by today's standards the book is somewhat weak (but don't let any Bikestar SM armies, or Free Transport Decurions know that) - but what it had was about as much variety and choice as the current SM codex does today.
It had entries and perks for the different Legions (Chapter Tactics), a much better Mark system (which gave stronger benefits and changed unit types), a host of wargear and a beautiful aesthetic at the time.
With regards to your list?
- We need points drops everywhere. The fact that KDK and the supplements did not throw these in is rather distressing. KDK tried to address the problems by letting Daemon of Khorne stack onto Mark of Khorne for select units but you'll find that KDK is basically a glorified Khorne Daemon army since any of the CSM units are pure trash.
- I don't see us losing that ability, simply because taking Berserkers/Plague Marines/Thousand Sons/Noise Marines as a core for a God-army has been a staple since 2nd edition. If anything they're likely to shift about on the Force Org chart before we lose that.
- I think we're more likely to see Chapter Tactic equivalents for the Legions rather than Formations.
- Tzeentch is in an awkward spot. I can't see too much of a psychic phase reliance because there are other aspects of Tzeentch - firepower and a strange sort of resilience aspect.
- We will probably never get dreadclaws or drop pod equivalents. It's been 3 editions and we still haven't gotten Land Raider variants or their increased carrying capacity. They even went as far as gutting our Machine Spirit equivalent right out of existence.
- No more dinobots. I'd rather have a CSM army that was based around CSM. Not Dark Mechanicus. Not Lost and the Damned. They trimmed Daemons away, they should really do the same with the dinobots and just go all out and make a Dark Mechanicus supplement.
Personally...I see the following myself. Or at the very least dream of the following.
- Points drop across the board - this has held true with every army to date as GW want BIGGER ARMIES to push more out on people.
- Legion Traditions - Chapter Tactic equivalents, perhaps with a bit more restriction on them - at the very least for Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers. Possibly a successor variant (ala Black Templars) for Red Corsairs.
-Less Randomisation - this is the biggest bugbear and by far the one that has not worked for them. The reward system is nice, but far too random to be effective (OH BOY. I GOT +1 BS on this Lightning Claw armed champion!). The randomisation is also what makes the Possessed trash - 3.5 had the best system for Possessed where for X points you bought the mutations you wanted. They actually saw play then.
- No more Mandatory Challenges from Champion of Chaos - this rule is awful. Champions are often used as 'stop-gaps' in units to counter threats they may come across that the unit may struggle with - melta bombs, power fists, or even a power weapon on a line infantry squad just in case. It is ridiculous to have them suddenly just off and decide to call a challenge for the enemy's Hive Tyrant/Avatar/kitted up Chapter Master or Phoenix Lord to blat them without breaking a sweat. The changes to challenges in 7th didn't help either as the excess wounds carry over to the unit so there's really no loss. It's not even like they're a speedbump anymore.
- Less Dark Mechanicum, more CSM. Give us vehicle variants. Normalise our vehicles compared to Imperial counterparts. Or failing that buff them to show their supposed veterancy or whatever. Stop shoving dinobots in. A CSM list that is almost entirely reliant on non CSM units should NOT be a thing.
- Wargear! Glorious wargear! 2+ saves! 4+ Invuln saves! Master crafting! Additional attacks from digi-laser equivalents! I should be able to kit a Chaos Lord up to be on par with any SM equivalent and not have to have spent 80+ points on Mutation rolls in order to get the odd things we're not allowed to actually buy.
Arr the 3.5 Glory days, when i could run beserkers across the board and actually get into combat.............. use to love watching the red nutters get out of their Rhinos and run half the distance the Rhino would then move.
in any case we will not see a new codex for a year or so....so dream is free.
That damn books of crimsom and black legion doomed us, because GW will no release a new codex that invalids them.
I cant understant GW. I mean, they MUST know chaos is weak and SM are strong.....why gave to the strong codex an op update and to the weak codex a ***** update?
Meanwhile we can play with non competitive friends or use a different army for competitive meta or tournaments. Of course win doesnt means everything....but cant do nothing and feel owned is not fun.
If your second army is also weak (on my case, my armies are chaos marines and orks haha) then you can pray xDDD
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/11 11:38:13
If your second army is also weak (on my case, my armies are chaos marines and orks haha) then you can pray xDDD
CSM and DE here...
Thinnk GW hates the evil guys (necron doesnt counts since got friends of the blood angels haha). See, the chaos space marines, the orks (even if the humans that lives under the rule of orks live better than on the imperium haha) and the dark eldars were the symbol of evil for the empire and the evil guys to beat. And, oh surprise, their armies are weak as hell haha
Franarok wrote: in any case we will not see a new codex for a year or so....so dream is free.
That damn books of crimsom and black legion doomed us, because GW will no release a new codex that invalids them.
I cant understant GW. I mean, they MUST know chaos is weak and SM are strong.....why gave to the strong codex an op update and to the weak codex a ***** update?
Meanwhile we can play with non competitive friends or use a different army for competitive meta or tournaments. Of course win doesnt means everything....but cant do nothing and feel owned is not fun.
If your second army is also weak (on my case, my armies are chaos marines and orks haha) then you can pray xDDD
GW has no accountability for their rules writers and lately (past few years) they have been phoning it in unless its something that interests them. If the modeling department put out a Sister of Battle Dialogus quality sculpt nowadays then somebody would be out of a job but the rules writers can make terrible rules for things like the Gorkanaut, the Necron Start Collecting Box, Wraithknight, the Ghazzcurion, the entire CSM and Tyranid Codex, etc and its no big deal (at least to our knowledge). Consolation prize in all of this is that I am able to infer with a degree of certainty that somebody on the rules team had a really bad experience with a Killa Kan some point which is why they went out of their way to nerf the poor things into the ground.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/11 12:20:43
"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise"
I feel bad for those at GW who aren't on the rules team that play these armies and don't have a say in the rules writing. The guy who showed off his morkanuaght for the painting showcase a feq days ago could not have been any happier than his green-skinned brothers.
8k points
3k points
3k points
)
), I actually had a 
-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
-- 
+ 
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise"