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So with the release of AoD we get a unique unit entry for a terminator captain. This captain can opt to swap out her standard terminator armor for Cataphractii terminator armor.

Under the entry for Cataphractii terminator armor we see it confers a 4++ save and slow and purposeful over relentless.

We also come across this and I quote from the book word for word

"A model wearing Cataphractii Terminator armor counts as wearing Terminator Armor for the purposes of embarking within Transport vehicles, the use of teleport homers (see Codex: Space Marines), and for the purposes of formation restrictions.

Now lets take a step back to the profile of the Terminator Captain found in the book. It says "May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists (See Codex: Space Marines)

So RAW you can equip a Cataphractii armor wearing Terminator Captain with the special issue war gear choice of a bike or jump pack if you so wish. As I read it RAW he is just as eligible to take a bike or jump pack as a standard captain provided he is wearing Cataphractii Terminator armor.


As another fun note he gets to re roll invuln saves of 1 due to have a 4++ from both his iron halo and Cataphractii Terminator armor. If you give him a relic that gives a 3++ invuln (Like the shied eternal) or even a standard storm shield he gets a 3++ re rolling 1s invlun save.

So what are your opinions on this? Would you accept a game where the other play was using this? Is this truly RAW or am I missing something?

EDITl I quote from the AOD book on Termy captain with cata armor

"A Terminator Captain wearing Cataphractii terminator armour also re rolls invunberable saving throws of 1 to represent the overlapping energy fields projected from both his iron halo and his armors in built shield generators <-- On the topic of him having the ability to re roll 1s.

Have i missed a rule somewhere that allows rerolls of 1 for having 2 invulnerable saves?????

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
As another fun note he gets to re roll invuln saves of 1 due to have a 4++ from both his iron halo and Cataphractii Terminator armor. If you give him a relic that gives a 3++ invuln (Like the shied eternal) or even a standard storm shield he gets a 3++ re rolling 1s invlun save.

I'm not familiar with any rule which would allow this. Does it have something to do with the Cataphractii Armour?

Ah yes I forgot to include that in the OP post.

I quote from the AOD book on Termy captain with cata armor

"A Terminator Captain wearing Cataphractii terminator armour also re rolls invunberable saving throws of 1 to represent the overlapping energy fields projected from both his iron halo and his armors in built shield generators."

So, the argument is that, because he doesn't "count as" wearing terminator armour for the purpose of selecting wargear, the restriction on terminator captains taking bikes/jump packs doesnt apply?

 jokerkd wrote:
So, the argument is that, because he doesn't "count as" wearing terminator armour for the purpose of selecting wargear, the restriction on terminator captains taking bikes/jump packs doesnt apply?

Yeah thats it pretty much. He is limited to taking terminator weapons. He does not technically count as having Terminator armor except for transports and teleport homers and has permissions to take special issue wargear.

There are now two types of Terminator armor in the game.
Terminator Armor
Cataphractii Terminator Armor.

Both of them are terminator armor types by their Unit Entry Title, as such Terminator restrictions apply to both, and cataphractii gains additional bonuses/restrictions for being a subtype.

So, would I play this? As a near exclusive Marines player in both 30k and 40k, no I would use it, or play against it.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
There are now two types of Terminator armor in the game.
Terminator Armor
Cataphractii Terminator Armor.

Both of them are terminator armor types by their Unit Entry Title, as such Terminator restrictions apply to both, and cataphractii gains additional bonuses/restrictions for being a subtype.

So, would I play this? As a near exclusive Marines player in both 30k and 40k, no I would use it, or play against it.

Well heres the thing yeah he is a Terminator Captain, but thats just his name. Lysander does not have Terminator anything in his name, but still is 100% bound by terminator restrictions because he is armed with Terminator armor. The name of the character means nothing in regards to the wargear he can take or restrictions he has as its just a name. Sure the Terminator captain is a TERMINATOR captain, but when he suits up in Cataphractii Terminator armor he gets a few "Counts as" rules in regards to what he can take. The entry for him specifically states that it counts as wearing Terminator armor for the purposes of embarking within a transport vehicle (which a bike is not), the use of teleport homers (Which a bike is not affected by) and for the purposes of Formation restrictions (Which does not directly limit his ability to take certain wargear unless the formation says that it does and I cannot think of any formation that limits a character from taking a bike).

So in conclusion the Cataphractii Terminator armor only counts as "Terminator armor" for purposes of being a suit of terminator armor for things that dont effect his ability to take a bike or jump pack.

I hate to admit it, but RAW it seems to work. I'm SURE it's not intended and was an overlooked mistake, but RAW I think he's ok to take a bike or Jump Pack...

I think he would model him in an attackbike tho, lol

RaW it appears to work. HOWEVER, it's an extremely obvious oversight and you probably won't find anyone who will allow it.

Also, the Age of Darkness/30k rules for Cataphractii Armour shouldn't be used. That's an expansion to 40k and has no bearing on a Terminator Captain in standard games of 40k Cata Armour only grants Slow and Purposeful and a 4++... no re-rolls of 1's.

The JP/bike thing looks to be OK from a strict RAW, but is a pretty clear violation of the spirit and precedent of the rules. I view this as one of those things you might read about in the pure theoretical world of the internet, but nobody would try to get on the table. If someone wanted to seriously play this, I’d take it as a sign of the rules lawyering to come, shake their hand, congratulate them on their win, and pack up without rolling any dice. If I was the kind of person who played in tournaments, I’d check with the TO first to see if it was allowed. Hopefully they will FAQ it.

The invuln re-roll thing should work with SS or other invuls. While it might make him a tough nut to crack, it doesn’t spit in the face of the fluff. And he’s just a terminator captain on foot, with S&P. He can’t upgrade to be a CM, he’s not on a bike. There is a limit on how much trouble he can cause. Even if you put him in a transport.

 Kriswall wrote:
RaW it appears to work. HOWEVER, it's an extremely obvious oversight and you probably won't find anyone who will allow it.

Also, the Age of Darkness/30k rules for Cataphractii Armour shouldn't be used. That's an expansion to 40k and has no bearing on a Terminator Captain in standard games of 40k Cata Armour only grants Slow and Purposeful and a 4++... no re-rolls of 1's.

It specifically states on p.57 of Angels of Death that it allows for re-rolling 1's...

Actually i think that RAW you can indeed equip them with jump packs or bikes.

But i would like to argue that i cannot be sure that this was not intentional. They COULD have said "follows all of the normal options and restrictions as a model wearing terminator armor"

Instead it looks like they went to great lengths to specify everything EXCEPT bikes and jump packs.

The only reason to believe it was an oversight is an unfounded belief of intent. But to me the way the wrote it seems to imply that it WAS intentional as they wrote it in a way that was much more complicated than would have been necessary.

Please don't post in threads that are this old, it's called thread necromancy (threadomancy) and isn't really approved of here, short of exceptional reasons. Thanks