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Hi all,

I've been using a 7th ed Tyranid Codex I wrote for awhile now in my gaming group and we have a lot of fun with it. It was suggested that I post it here and (hopefully) get some feedback to improve it.

You can find it here: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_Xe1GB9HM88ZG5PM0xEcVJQU1U&usp=sharing

I focused on trying to make small changes across the board to promote synergy instead of just trying to buff specific units. Probably the biggest is that now Scything Talons strike at Initiative order when charging into terrain, meaning that more units are much better at fighting, but also that you need to make some strategic choices when choosing your load out (do you want your Carnifex to rip through Vehicles with its Crushing Claws, or to wade through Orks with Scything Talons).

Anyway I would really love some constructive criticism and feedback, thanks all!

- Jesse

I am going to give this a look over for sure. I am currently writing my own Tyranid fandex. The first note I would give you is to change shadow in the warp to effect units in synapse range.

It makes it so any powers or gear that increases synapse also increase shadow giving them much better utility and making them more worth their points.

A quick look over the unit entries, it seems that some things have been actively nerfed that really didn't need it (why are Lictors only 2 wounds each whilst still only being T4?) whilst there have been only minor improvements and a few very strange changes (Tervigons as troop choices only? The Red Terror as an HQ? Broodlords went up in cost? Trygon in Fast Attack? Fearless on all the MC's whilst still having Instinctive Behaviour, this one inparticular makes no sense).

Honestly I think it's still a bottomfeeder codex with these changes.

I like some of your concepts, namely Expendable special rule, Rupture Cannon chance of being strenght D and Tervigon breeding sac changes, along with slight increase in availability of AP3 weapons Tyranids really need and neat psychic disciplines. Some of changes are misfires though - some examples: the way how your modified Lash Whips lack initiative boost or totally unnecessary increase in efectiveness of Devourer weapons...

But overall it is a nice effort, not in the same direction we in our group "repair" Tyranids, but nice nevertheless.

Side note - the "small" version of your .pdf has some problems and repeats Bone Swords and Psychic Overload frames on almost every page making a lot of entries unreadable. "Tiny" version works fine though.

@Lance845: I did make all powers/biomorphs/upgrades that increase Synpase range also increase Shadow in the Warp but it occurs to me that if I have just written "A model's Shadow in the Warp range is always equal to it's Synapse Range" I could have saved myself a lot of writting haha. Thanks for the tip, I'll re-word it all for the next version! I hope to hear more feedback from you once you've had a chance to read it more in depth.

@Imateria: Lictors went down to 2 Wounds to bring them more in line with other multi-wound Tyranid creatures, and also because they got so many other buffs (and a points drop) they needed to lose something, haha. They now have Preferred Enemy (through Feeder Tendrils) in close combat and may single out individual characters in combat for annihilation (they excel at removing Powerfist Sergeants, Ork Pain Boyz and other support characters from the game now). This came at the expense of their 3rd Wound and Reserve bonus. The slot changes were mostly buffs I believe: Tervigons lost HQ status but no longer have a Termagant tax to be taken, Trygons are Elite now to more differentiate them from Trygon Primes (still in Heavy Support). I'm not sure why MC-wide Fearless contradicts having Instinctive Behaviour, Fearless lets you auto-pass Morale tests, not Leadership.

I think your quick look missed a lot of the benefits the Codex gained in special abilities (I tried to tweak abilities and wargear much more than buffing stats). Attacking with Scything Talons lets you strike at Initiative when charging into terrain (a huge buff for Hormagaunts, Raveners, Warriors and nearly all Monstrous Creatures), the Expendable rule allows Gants, Gaunts, Rippers and Gargoyles to serve as an effective 5++ for Synapse Creatures just be being within 6", and many of the models are faster now.

@nou: Thanks for the feedback! I am open to suggestion on Lash Whips - with the attack at Initiative when charging buff to Scything Talons I didn't feel like the +3i bonus made a lot of sense anymore (and it doesn't help with charging into terrain anyways in its current version in the real Dex). The 4th Ed Codex had it give a decent defensive buff (all models in base-to-base contact lose 1 Attack) and I wanted something along those lines and felt the can't hit on better than a 5+ was both better and more fluffy. But again, open to suggestions. Devourers didn't need a buff no, but I love the 4th Ed Codex and wanted to bring Living Ammunition back an it didn't make sense to leave it off Devourers. To compensate I made them cost 5pts for a Gant (making them more expensive than the Gant itself) and I was already increasing the price of the Brainleech Worms vcariant to 25pts (because no one thought those were under-costed haha) so the minor buff seemed fine. The only ones who get a straight free buff were Warriors with Devourers and warriors needed it.

Thanks for the heads up, I replaced the .pdf with a new version that should work better and had a few minor fixes (added Independent Character to the Broodlord because I'd missed it and I'd accidentally left Feeder Tendrils out of the armoury.

Or just write the rule "SiTW - any enemy model within the synapse range... etc etcc

^Not had that problem on the "small" version myself, though large blocks of the background do go white at times for me.

Having had more time to read through it I'll give a more detailed response.

Shadow in the Warp- A good change, makes it usable for more than just those occasions when your opponent perils. I think I would have kept the -3 to leadership though, or at least had it at -2 rather than -1.

Instinctive Behaviour- What do you mean by "takes X casualties"? Is this a pre set amount or based on a dice role? Either way I'd still hate IB, loosing controle of your army is never fun. Also, at no point have you explained why the unit entries have Instinctive Behaviour listed as Feed (D6) or Feed (D3), this is confusing as I have no idea what it is your trying to have me do with this.

Warlord Traits- I like them, they all seem useful at least to some degree and a vast improvement on the dead duck of a list we currently have.

Adaptive Instincts- basically re-roll to see how badly your screwed. Should be a re-roll on the leadership test instead, for an army with a huge number of models with Ld 7 or worse and guaranteed to loose control of the army if we fail is far too punishing with nothing to mitigate against it.

Hive Tyrant- I like the increase in base Attacks and the drop in points, though not sure why wings have gone up from 35 to 40pts? Not many changes here but probably the only unit that didn't need any.

Warrior Prime- I like the price drop a lot, and the option to take Wings and make him Jump Infantry and to join with Shrikes is very cool, though is at least double it's worth at 20pts. At no point do you explain what a Ravenor Body is, I'm sure the intent here is to make it like a Ravenor but if you don't explain it how is anybody supposed to know? And again, 20pts is way too much.

Broodlord- Good to see it moved back to an HQ, glad you clarifyed on the Psychic powers it has (The Horror + Primaris, and what a brutal combination that could prove!). Not sure it was worth a 25pt increase in cost though, at least not without Scything Talons or Flesh Hooks as standard. Speaking of, why are Flesh Hooks double the cost of Scything Talons? There's an extra, massive problem there that I'll get into later.

Deathleaper- Nice points drop, the only problem I have with it (and Lictors) is the same as I currently do, it's only T4 for a creature double the size of a Space Marine, surely they should be T5?

Old One Eye- Points drop, +1 WS, Feel no Pain, Eternal Warrior and dropping Instinctive Behaviour are all excellent improvements but I feel Hatred (Sgt Telion) to be rather useless, particularly since his Warlord trait gives him Hatred to begin with. Not sure about dropping Berserk Rampage for straight up Rampage, though I guess it doesn't make that big of a difference. Lastly, why is it still Initiative 2 when you've made Carnifexes I3?

The Red Terror- Why is this an HQ choice now? This one doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, it's not a leader type creature at all. Worst thing about this is the loss of the Swallow Whole special rule, though it didn't come into effect often I loved it. Loosing IB helps, obviously, but I don't see any reason why it shouldn't have it, +1 I is cool, Hammer of Wrath is nice but largely useless. I like the fact that it can leave Ravenor units now though, since it doesn't have IB any more and Fearless doesn't seem to have any effect on it that could lead to some very weird situations in trying to work out what a Ravenor unit outside of Synapse but with a RT attached should do.

Warriors- 10ppm price drop is good but losing 1W whilst still being T4 feels like an overall nerf to me, and they were'n't exactly a highly efficient unit to start with.

Hormagaunts- The changes to Scything Talons and giving them the Beast type makes for a huge buff, which they needed. 2pt Toxin Sacs is cool as well. Expendable seems like an OK rule and quite fluffy, I like it's inclusion.

Tervigon- Why on earth is this a Troops choice, this one makes no sense whatsoever? Points drop is spot on, and I love the Brood Sac special rule, but Brood Progenetor is massively punishing though and far more so than the current version. Is there a reason for that?

Genestealers- excellent changes, pretty much exactly what they needed.

Mucolid Spore- I think I'm in agreement with those that say it should be moved to Fast Attack.

Ripper Swarms- Excellent changes.

Tyrant Guard- Still too expensive, can't take Flesh Hooks and can only be taken in units of 3. Not good.

Hive Guard- BS4, exactly what they should already have. Still can't see a reason why Schock Cannons aren't a free replacement, they have 1 less shot and 6" less range, Hawyire and Balst does not make up for that. Still not worth 50ppm, especially now you've dropped them to T5, and it would be nice to take them in squads of 5.

Zoanthrope/Neurothrope- As you can tell by now I have a dislike for all the elite infantry being a flat 50pts, per model they are not worth it. Psychic Brood change is very nice, I like it, but why did you feel the need to hit the Neurothrope with the nerf bat? I know Spirit Leech is a powerful ability but getting rid of it completely was not called for. Also, why did you drop maximum squad size from 6 back to 3 again, surely just stating a maximum Psychic Mastery Level, or 1 level per 2 models would have been better?

Trygon- Another baffling combat role change, nothing about this unit would put it in Elite, especially when you left the Prime in Heavy Support. I like the change to Subterranean Assault, Trygons being able to automatically come in turn 1 is perfect and makes the tunnel useful, though I don't like the 1 unit per turn restriction. Points change was good as usual, but what's Ravenous Advance, I've yet to fins where you explain this special rule?

Malaceptor- Points drop and +1 to it's invuln, BS and ML are great and may actually make it usable, still not sure on the Psychic Overload power though at WC2.

Shrikes- I can't see why they are 2ppm more expensive than Warriors, with the 2W nerf, difficult terrain, T4 and 5+ armour they're just going to die very quickly which counters the extra mobility quite a lot.

Lictors- Not sure on the Fast Attack change but this one isn't such a big deal. Overall it feels like you've taken away more than you've given to them, 1 less wound is not good for what was already a fragile unit and I really, really hate the change to Pheremone Trail (Mawlocs + Lictors was one of the few effective combos Tyranids have which wouldn't work at all with this change and nothing to replace it with. I also enjoyed using them with Ravenors and Ripper Swarms.), at least Chameleonic skin and the removal of IB are good changes.

Gargoyls- Still meh.

Harpy- Could probably do with being slightly cheaper but other than that is fine.

Hive Crone- Maybe knock 10pts off but other than that is fine.

Pyrovore- This is.... interesting. I'd never considered making the Pyrovore a fast assault unit and with S5, AP2 and the Beast type it'll certainly get into combat and do damage, being I2 the lack of assault grenades wont really hurt. Run and Shoot doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me though, this thing wants to be in combat and if it's close enough to use it's flamer then it doesn't really need to run, and if it runs it can't then charge. Again, larger squads would be nice.

Haruspex- Being 30pts cheaper is nice and giving it an extra 3" move will certainly help but it's still got far to few attacks to be effective.

Ravenor- Loosing a Wound and BS does not help this unit in the slightest, and the ranged weapon upgrades are ludicrously expensive for a BS2 unit. Still cant take Flesh Hooks either.

Spore Mines- Stealth is nice, gives them a chance to be worth those 5ppm. The larger squads are nice.

Carnifex- Points drop is good, as is the +1 Initiative and attack for Living Battering Ram but why did you feel the need to drop it's strength? Still too slow and vulnerable to be the monster it once was.

Biovore- Symbiotic Targeting, ouch this guy is really going to hurt, nice.

Exocrine- The biggest problem with what should be an excellent unit is the short range at 24", so you make the blest even shorter range?!! Why?

Toxicrene- WS5 is a huge boost to this guy and I love the preferred enemy from Feeder Tendrils (should have mentioned that with the Lictor and Deathleaper). Still too expensive at 160pts though.

Mawloc- I love the changes to Terror from the Deep, this things even more leathel now and an effective counter to Invisible units as well. One thing I noticed with this and the Trygon, why the locked Tail Biomorph choice?

Trygon Prime- I agree with the price drop on this guy.

Tyrannofex- AP3 on Acid Spray is great and the Living Artillery rule is brilliant, still don't like it being BS3 though, it's the biggest reason not to take the Rupture Cannon. Symbiotic Targeting would work well here as well.

Tyrannocyte- Points drop is good, maybe it would be a good idea to list it as a Dedicated Transport for other units and put it into Fast Attack, it is basically a Drop Pod after all. I'm really liking the Defensive Array weapons rules.

Swarmlord- An increase to his BS, A, Mastery Level and Sv are good, a 15pt increase is not. Could do with Fleet because the Swarmlord is a slow moving, high priority target with no shooting weapons. The fact that it lacks Eternal Warrior or access to an invuln outside of combat makes him pretty vulnrable as well. Definitely not worth 300pts.

Psychic Powers- Overall I'm liking the changes you've made here though I think having 2 Psychic tables would be better than 3. I see where you've put Spirit Leech though, personally I think it was better on the Neurothrope as it was worth the 25pts then. Warp Blast should be WC1 IMO, and I think it would be better to separate out the two profiles. Cataclysm should be WC3, there's no way in hell that a Strength D Large Blast should be WC2. Hypnotic Gaze should be WC1, or changed so that the target can take no actions until the end of it's next turn.

Melee Weapons- Boneswords and Bonesword & Lashwhip are both too expensive still, and I'm not liking the Entangle rule, seems needlessly complicated and will be ignored until the bearer is the last model left. I much prefer the current Swifstrike. Scything Talons are horribly problematic. You've effectively made them Assault Grenades, making Flesh Hooks not only more expensive in most cases but completely redundant. The biggest problem with this is that you're forcing units to give up killing power to be able to strike at Initiative, a really stupid decision because outside of MC's your striking at S User, AP6 and probably WS3 so even going first your not going to kill much. This doesn't so much as take away choice as give nothing but bad choices. Why couldn't you have just given greater access to cheap Flesh Hooks, I honestly can't see anything good about this change.

Ranged Weapons- This is much better, though you missed the range for the Stranglethorn Cannon. I like the Living Ammunition rule though it might be a bit too powerful on TWLDevourers (you forgot to list it as Twin Linked for it's entry) and the Fleshborer Hive, Deathspitters being AP4 is a good improvement. Rupture seems like a cool rule on the Rupture Cannon but given the only unit that can take it is BS3, it'll be hard to get those two hits successfully. You gave Shreddershard Beatles the exact same profile as Electroshock Grubbs, Spike Rifle has the exact same profile as the Shock Cannon (though that might actually make it useful!). Not impressed with the Venom Cannons still being Small Blast weapons, it's the reason I avoid using them after too many disappointments.

Biomorphs- I don't like the changes to Adrenal Glands, Fleet and Furious Charge are far more useful than Rage and Counter Attack. Enhanced Senses are interesting, a shame it's only the Carnifex that can take them.Good to see Extended Carapace back. Implant Attack seems very cool, I like that alot. Tail Biomorph changes are very cool, far more useful than the extra attack they currently grant.

Some of those formations seem quite interesting. I retract my previous statement, this is definitely a better codex than the current one, yet I feel there's been too much taking with one hand whilst giving with another, and mostly on units that were underperforming to begin with.

I REALLY appreciate the detailed response, thanks so much! I'll try to address everything you brought up.

Imateria wrote:Shadow in the Warp- A good change, makes it usable for more than just those occasions when your opponent perils. I think I would have kept the -3 to leadership though, or at least had it at -2 rather than -1.

Shadow in the Warp's Leadership de-buff now affects all units not just Leadership, you don't think a flat -2 in all situations would be too strong?

Imateria wrote:Instinctive Behaviour- What do you mean by "takes X casualties"? Is this a pre set amount or based on a dice role? Either way I'd still hate IB, loosing controle of your army is never fun. Also, at no point have you explained why the unit entries have Instinctive Behaviour listed as Feed (D6) or Feed (D3), this is confusing as I have no idea what it is your trying to have me do with this.

The last paragraph in Instinctive Behaviour outlines this but that page is a bit too crowded, I think I'll split it out over two pages.

"If a result on the table below refers to X models, use the amount listed alongside the units Instinctive Behaviour rule (for example Hormagaunts have Instinctive Behaviour - Feed (D6))."

Imateria wrote:Warlord Traits- I like them, they all seem useful at least to some degree and a vast improvement on the dead duck of a list we currently have.

Thank you!

Imateria wrote:Adaptive Instincts- basically re-roll to see how badly your screwed. Should be a re-roll on the leadership test instead, for an army with a huge number of models with Ld 7 or worse and guaranteed to loose control of the army if we fail is far too punishing with nothing to mitigate against it.

Imateria wrote:Hive Tyrant- I like the increase in base Attacks and the drop in points, though not sure why wings have gone up from 35 to 40pts? Not many changes here but probably the only unit that didn't need any.

Wings went up alongside TL Devourers to keep the standard Flyrant build at the same price. I didn't want our already strongest unit to get any stronger, but I wanted to make walking Tyrants or melee Flyrants attractive again.

Imateria wrote:Warrior Prime- I like the price drop a lot, and the option to take Wings and make him Jump Infantry and to join with Shrikes is very cool, though is at least double it's worth at 20pts. At no point do you explain what a Ravenor Body is, I'm sure the intent here is to make it like a Ravenor but if you don't explain it how is anybody supposed to know? And again, 20pts is way too much.

That was a bad oversight on my part, yes the Ravener body was supposed to make him a Beast unit type. I'll play test with both upgrades reduced to 10 pts.

Imateria wrote:Broodlord- Good to see it moved back to an HQ, glad you clarifyed on the Psychic powers it has (The Horror + Primaris, and what a brutal combination that could prove!). Not sure it was worth a 25pt increase in cost though, at least not without Scything Talons or Flesh Hooks as standard. Speaking of, why are Flesh Hooks double the cost of Scything Talons? There's an extra, massive problem there that I'll get into later.

I missed out on the Independent Character rule he's supposed to have, which I thought made for a worthwhile base points increase, especially considering he gained Hit & Run and Stealth (which he can now transfer to other units like Gants).

Imateria wrote:Deathleaper- Nice points drop, the only problem I have with it (and Lictors) is the same as I currently do, it's only T4 for a creature double the size of a Space Marine, surely they should be T5?

Possibly. That wouldn't be a bad change. They are supposed to be based on the Warrior body though and I don't want increase those to T5. I know I don't have to, haha, but keeping it fluffy while making it better is important to me.

Imateria wrote:Old One Eye- Points drop, +1 WS, Feel no Pain, Eternal Warrior and dropping Instinctive Behaviour are all excellent improvements but I feel Hatred (Sgt Telion) to be rather useless, particularly since his Warlord trait gives him Hatred to begin with. Not sure about dropping Berserk Rampage for straight up Rampage, though I guess it doesn't make that big of a difference. Lastly, why is it still Initiative 2 when you've made Carnifexes I3?

Hatred (Sgt. Telion) is useless! But it's also super fluffy (in the original fluff it was Sgt. Telion that finnaly stopped his rampage on Macragge) so I thought it was fun to add. The Initiative drop was an oversight, I forgot to increase him when I increased normal Carni's.

Imateria wrote:The Red Terror- Why is this an HQ choice now? This one doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, it's not a leader type creature at all. Worst thing about this is the loss of the Swallow Whole special rule, though it didn't come into effect often I loved it. Loosing IB helps, obviously, but I don't see any reason why it shouldn't have it, +1 I is cool, Hammer of Wrath is nice but largely useless. I like the fact that it can leave Ravenor units now though, since it doesn't have IB any more and Fearless doesn't seem to have any effect on it that could lead to some very weird situations in trying to work out what a Ravenor unit outside of Synapse but with a RT attached should do.

Swallow Whole was cool but complicated and it came up infrequently. Giving it Implant Attack seemed like a worthwhile replacement.

Imateria wrote:Warriors- 10ppm price drop is good but losing 1W whilst still being T4 feels like an overall nerf to me, and they were'n't exactly a highly efficient unit to start with.

With the increased durability from having Expendable units nearby they've always felt worth it to me. But then again I play in an only mildly competitive meta. I'm not against making Warrior-strain creatures T5 necessarily, I was just hoping for a more elegant solution.

Imateria wrote:Hormagaunts- The changes to Scything Talons and giving them the Beast type makes for a huge buff, which they needed. 2pt Toxin Sacs is cool as well. Expendable seems like an OK rule and quite fluffy, I like it's inclusion.

Imateria wrote:Tervigon- Why on earth is this a Troops choice, this one makes no sense whatsoever? Points drop is spot on, and I love the Brood Sac special rule, but Brood Progenetor is massively punishing though and far more so than the current version. Is there a reason for that?

I was trying to balance the fact that you'll likely get more rolls than before with the new Brood Sac rule. I might've swung too far the other way. The only a Troop thing was to balance the fact that they no longer have a Termagant tax to take them.

Imateria wrote:Genestealers- excellent changes, pretty much exactly what they needed.

Thanks!

Imateria wrote:Mucolid Spore- I think I'm in agreement with those that say it should be moved to Fast Attack.

I can see that argument.

Imateria wrote:Ripper Swarms- Excellent changes.

Thanks!

Imateria wrote:Tyrant Guard- Still too expensive, can't take Flesh Hooks and can only be taken in units of 3. Not good.

The units of 3 thing is because I think Deathstars are bad for the health of the game. I can see the too expensive though. If anything deserves to be W3 these guys do.

Imateria wrote:Hive Guard- BS4, exactly what they should already have. Still can't see a reason why Schock Cannons aren't a free replacement, they have 1 less shot and 6" less range, Hawyire and Balst does not make up for that. Still not worth 50ppm, especially now you've dropped them to T5, and it would be nice to take them in squads of 5.

Agreed on all counts.

Imateria wrote:Zoanthrope/Neurothrope- As you can tell by now I have a dislike for all the elite infantry being a flat 50pts, per model they are not worth it. Psychic Brood change is very nice, I like it, but why did you feel the need to hit the Neurothrope with the nerf bat? I know Spirit Leech is a powerful ability but getting rid of it completely was not called for. Also, why did you drop maximum squad size from 6 back to 3 again, surely just stating a maximum Psychic Mastery Level, or 1 level per 2 models would have been better?

Fair points, capping the Mastery Level works just as well as limiting the squad size. Spirit Leech was moved to be the Primaris so I felt the addition of Absorb Life made the 25 pt upgrade more worth it.

Imateria wrote:Trygon- Another baffling combat role change, nothing about this unit would put it in Elite, especially when you left the Prime in Heavy Support. I like the change to Subterranean Assault, Trygons being able to automatically come in turn 1 is perfect and makes the tunnel useful, though I don't like the 1 unit per turn restriction. Points change was good as usual, but what's Ravenous Advance, I've yet to fins where you explain this special rule?

Ravenous Advance is found under the Haruspex (I need to add pg number references), it adds 3" to its Movement in the Movement Phase. I moved it to Elite just to thin out the getting super crowded Heavy Support section.

Imateria wrote:Malaceptor- Points drop and +1 to it's invuln, BS and ML are great and may actually make it usable, still not sure on the Psychic Overload power though at WC2.

Imateria wrote:Shrikes- I can't see why they are 2ppm more expensive than Warriors, with the 2W nerf, difficult terrain, T4 and 5+ armour they're just going to die very quickly which counters the extra mobility quite a lot.

Dropped to 25ppm.

Imateria wrote:Lictors- Not sure on the Fast Attack change but this one isn't such a big deal. Overall it feels like you've taken away more than you've given to them, 1 less wound is not good for what was already a fragile unit and I really, really hate the change to Pheremone Trail (Mawlocs + Lictors was one of the few effective combos Tyranids have which wouldn't work at all with this change and nothing to replace it with. I also enjoyed using them with Ravenors and Ripper Swarms.), at least Chameleonic skin and the removal of IB are good changes.

Fast Attack made more sense to me, they are supposed to be the vanguard organisms. The loss of the Mawloc combo sucks but it REALLY annoyed me that Lictors never played anything like they were described in the stories, so I wanted to fix that for fluff reasons haha. This one won't make everyone happy but I'm gonna stick with it. I'll either change them to T5 if I change Warriors or I'll reduce the points down to 35.

Imateria wrote:Gargoyls- Still meh.

How would you make them not meh?

Imateria wrote:Harpy- Could probably do with being slightly cheaper but other than that is fine.

Imateria wrote:Hive Crone- Maybe knock 10pts off but other than that is fine.

Imateria wrote:Pyrovore- This is.... interesting. I'd never considered making the Pyrovore a fast assault unit and with S5, AP2 and the Beast type it'll certainly get into combat and do damage, being I2 the lack of assault grenades wont really hurt. Run and Shoot doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me though, this thing wants to be in combat and if it's close enough to use it's flamer then it doesn't really need to run, and if it runs it can't then charge. Again, larger squads would be nice.

It's their for two reasons, a.) it was part of the original fluff so I brought it back, and b.) the decurion style detachment lets you Run and Charge so if you go that way you can have your cake and eat it too!

Imateria wrote:aruspex- Being 30pts cheaper is nice and giving it an extra 3" move will certainly help but it's still got far to few attacks to be effective.

Increased to WS5 and A4. Don't want to give it too many base attacks with Crushing Claws (which are Str +2 now) or it will be overpowered against Walkers.

Imateria wrote:Ravenor- Loosing a Wound and BS does not help this unit in the slightest, and the ranged weapon upgrades are ludicrously expensive for a BS2 unit. Still cant take Flesh Hooks either.

I was thinking the Save increase from 5+ to 4+ would mitigate the loss of a wound, especially with the price drop. You're right about the upgrade costs. Reduced the price to 22ppm and added Flesh Hooks as a 3ppm upgrade.

Imateria wrote:Spore Mines- Stealth is nice, gives them a chance to be worth those 5ppm. The larger squads are nice.

Imateria wrote:Carnifex- Points drop is good, as is the +1 Initiative and attack for Living Battering Ram but why did you feel the need to drop it's strength? Still too slow and vulnerable to be the monster it once was.

Reduced the Strength because the Str 9 was largely symbolic - you either went Crushing Claws for the anti-vehicle (and my Crushing Claws still take you up to Str 10, or you want to kill Infantry and the difference between 8 and 9 does nothing. This helped justify the points drop while buffing it. And it will never be the monster it once was. It's absolutely tiny compared to our other Monstrous Creatures and those of us who fondly remember its glory days in 4th edition just need to accept it's diminished stature.

Imateria wrote:Biovore- Symbiotic Targeting, ouch this guy is really going to hurt, nice.

Imateria wrote:Exocrine- The biggest problem with what should be an excellent unit is the short range at 24", so you make the blest even shorter range?!! Why?

I was trying to balance out the increased Strength of the Blast. A common thread I think you've noticed is that I didn't want to just buff without trying to balance things, as so many FanDex's are just exclusively buffs and wishlisting.

Imateria wrote:Toxicrene- WS5 is a huge boost to this guy and I love the preferred enemy from Feeder Tendrils (should have mentioned that with the Lictor and Deathleaper). Still too expensive at 160pts though.

Imateria wrote:Mawloc- I love the changes to Terror from the Deep, this things even more leathel now and an effective counter to Invisible units as well. One thing I noticed with this and the Trygon, why the locked Tail Biomorph choice?

I locked the tail biomorph choice simply because (to the best of my knowledge) GW hasn't updated the assembly instructions and you are instructed which tail to apply. It would annoy me to build the model and then realize I had other options if I were a new player (I know new players are unlikely to pick up my FanDex, hah, but I want to write as if I were writing a real Codex).

Imateria wrote:Trygon Prime- I agree with the price drop on this guy.

Imateria wrote:Tyrannofex- AP3 on Acid Spray is great and the Living Artillery rule is brilliant, still don't like it being BS3 though, it's the biggest reason not to take the Rupture Cannon. Symbiotic Targeting would work well here as well.

I am resistant to making it BS4 because then it feels like the Str 10 AP4 is a failure when you are stuck with it, as opposed to the Str D being a rare but fun occurrence. Does that makes sense? I could be persuaded to change it though. Giving the Symbiotic Targetting rule to the Rupture Cannon itself might be a nice compromise.

Imateria wrote:Tyrannocyte- Points drop is good, maybe it would be a good idea to list it as a Dedicated Transport for other units and put it into Fast Attack, it is basically a Drop Pod after all. I'm really liking the Defensive Array weapons rules.

Defensive Array just felt so much easier than the cluster**** of rules it has now. I'm not sure what Battlefield Role it has matters since it doesn't take up a FOC slot haha.

Imateria wrote:Swarmlord- An increase to his BS, A, Mastery Level and Sv are good, a 15pt increase is not. Could do with Fleet because the Swarmlord is a slow moving, high priority target with no shooting weapons. The fact that it lacks Eternal Warrior or access to an invuln outside of combat makes him pretty vulnrable as well. Definitely not worth 300pts.

Lack of Eternal Warrior was a MASSIVE oversight on my part. Gave him access to Psychic Barrier and made Blade Parry increase his Invul to 3++. The Swarmlord has always had a feeling of ponderous inevitability to me, so I'd rather have him be durable than fast. His access to all of the Psychic powers makes him useful as a support monster until he gets into combat. Remember that with him having all Tyranid powers he gets access to Cataclysm and Warp Lance at all times, making him just as devastating at range.

Imateria wrote:Psychic Powers- Overall I'm liking the changes you've made here though I think having 2 Psychic tables would be better than 3. I see where you've put Spirit Leech though, personally I think it was better on the Neurothrope as it was worth the 25pts then. Warp Blast should be WC1 IMO, and I think it would be better to separate out the two profiles. Cataclysm should be WC3, there's no way in hell that a Strength D Large Blast should be WC2. Hypnotic Gaze should be WC1, or changed so that the target can take no actions until the end of it's next turn.

Disagree on the Spirit Leech placement, but agreed on the Warp Charge costs. Changed them.

Imateria wrote:Melee Weapons- Boneswords and Bonesword & Lashwhip are both too expensive still, and I'm not liking the Entangle rule, seems needlessly complicated and will be ignored until the bearer is the last model left. I much prefer the current Swifstrike. Scything Talons are horribly problematic. You've effectively made them Assault Grenades, making Flesh Hooks not only more expensive in most cases but completely redundant. The biggest problem with this is that you're forcing units to give up killing power to be able to strike at Initiative, a really stupid decision because outside of MC's your striking at S User, AP6 and probably WS3 so even going first your not going to kill much. This doesn't so much as take away choice as give nothing but bad choices. Why couldn't you have just given greater access to cheap Flesh Hooks, I honestly can't see anything good about this change.

Entangle isn't ignored until the last model is left since it uses the Differentiating Attacks rules. but I agree its too complicated. I just really don't like Swiftstrike, it doesn't do anything 90% of the time since it can't work when a model charges into terrain.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the Scything Talons changes, they're the thing I'm most happy with haha.

Imateria wrote:Ranged Weapons- This is much better, though you missed the range for the Stranglethorn Cannon. I like the Living Ammunition rule though it might be a bit too powerful on TWLDevourers (you forgot to list it as Twin Linked for it's entry) and the Fleshborer Hive, Deathspitters being AP4 is a good improvement. Rupture seems like a cool rule on the Rupture Cannon but given the only unit that can take it is BS3, it'll be hard to get those two hits successfully. You gave Shreddershard Beatles the exact same profile as Electroshock Grubbs, Spike Rifle has the exact same profile as the Shock Cannon (though that might actually make it useful!). Not impressed with the Venom Cannons still being Small Blast weapons, it's the reason I avoid using them after too many disappointments.

Fixed all the mistakes haha, thanks for pointing them out.

Imateria wrote:Biomorphs- I don't like the changes to Adrenal Glands, Fleet and Furious Charge are far more useful than Rage and Counter Attack. Enhanced Senses are interesting, a shame it's only the Carnifex that can take them.Good to see Extended Carapace back. Implant Attack seems very cool, I like that alot. Tail Biomorph changes are very cool, far more useful than the extra attack they currently grant.

Changed Adrenal Glands back, I had originally changed them because I was experimenting with other things granting fleet and furious charge easily and then it got left as a hold-over.

Imateria wrote:Some of those formations seem quite interesting. I retract my previous statement, this is definitely a better codex than the current one, yet I feel there's been too much taking with one hand whilst giving with another, and mostly on units that were underperforming to begin with.

Really appreciate the input, I'll make all the changes I mentioned as well as a few others and put up a v2 tomorrow or so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Version 1.2 is up now: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_Xe1GB9HM88ZG5PM0xEcVJQU1U

JesseS wrote:
I REALLY appreciate the detailed response, thanks so much! I'll try to address everything you brought up.

Shadow in the Warp's Leadership de-buff now affects all units not just Leadership, you don't think a flat -2 in all situations would be too strong?

I'd missed that it affects everything, why is that? Fluff wise SitW only ever effects Psykers. A permanent -2 is strong but when DE can drop Necrons to Ld4 when they go all out on the Freakshow it's not that bad.

[code]
The last paragraph in Instinctive Behaviour outlines this but that page is a bit too crowded, I think I'll split it out over two pages.

"If a result on the table below refers to X models, use the amount listed alongside the units Instinctive Behaviour rule (for example Hormagaunts have Instinctive Behaviour - Feed (D6))."

Fluff wise sitw does NOT only effect psykers. Fluff wise even weeks before the hive fleets arrive entire planets suffer senses of unease and horrific nightmares that wear on their psyche. This grows with every passing day until the general populace is a paranoid wreck when the fleets arrive.

Psykers without training go mad, bleed out their every orriface and die.

Sitw giving everyone a -2 ld is a perfectly reasonable way to represent the shadow in close contact on the table. Fluff wise it should be blanketing the planet, tying it to a range is fair for balance.

As Lance pointed out the fluff is explicit that the feeling of dread and horror hits everybody, it just hits psykers worse. I'm still torn on uping it to -2 Ld from -1. Most of the Imperial armies could handle it but it ends up really punishing Orks. Plus with a Synapse Creature acting as back up a Broodlord can force a unit to take The Horror's Pinning test on a -4 Ld, which is already extremely effective.

Dropped the Tervigon's Brood Progenitor rule from 3D6 down to a normal Leadership Test at -1 Ld. Also made it both a Troop and HQ choice.

Fluff-wise the Broodlord used to lead more than just Genestealers (in 4th Ed it was both an Independent Character and a Synapse Creature). It used to be the leader of the Tyranid vanguard, with the Hive Tyrants coming down after with the other larger beasts. I didn't want to fully roll back the Broodlord to 4th but giving it Independent Character back is just fun.

That's not exactly how I would have interpreted Differentiating Attacks to work since I didn't envision Wounds spilling over between "units" but then I'd have to explain that in the Lash Whips description and now they have gotten more complicated than the idea is worth. I can just revert back to Swiftstrike (which I have always hated) or come up with something different. Off the top of my head perhaps any unit that charges a unit with one of more models with Lash Whips is forced to make a disordered charge? I am very open to suggestions here, heh.

Going back to my 4th Ed Codex Gargoyles used to have a mini-Bio-Plasma attack. I'm dropping Blinding Venom and letting them swap all of their attacks for a single Str4 AP2 attack in close combat instead. At least it gives them a bit more of a role, they become a decent harassment unit, able to pick on weak backfield units like Cultists and Guardsmen with their Fleshborers or put at least a few wounds on MEQ or maybe even TEQ. It doesn't make them great (I'm not even sure it makes them good since they are still super fragile. But they are cheap and now at least not entirely pointless.

I'm not sure how making TL Devourers w/ Brainleech Worms 25pts isn't still worth it, the only two models models we took them on (Tyrants and Carnifexs) got cheaper. Flyrants with dual TL-Devs are the same price, walking Tryants with dual TL Devs are 5pts cheaper and Carnifex with dual are 10pts cheaper, so objectively if they were worth it then than they are more worth it now (plus the Living Ammunition buff). However if the "sticker shock" of the price encourages people to try out other guns I'm ok with that

Increased the Lictor and Deathleaper Saves to 4+.

Gave Warriors the option to take Extended Carapace for 5pts a model. That means that a 3+ Warrior is now the same 30pts as in the current GW Codex while being more durable. I also gave them the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule with access to the Adaptation Discipline, which lets them make themselves more durable at need (with some forethought at least, haha).

Any thoughts on how to improve the formations, or any that seem overpowered?

(Changes updated on the .pdf, version 1.3 is now live: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_Xe1GB9HM88ZG5PM0xEcVJQU1U

Some comments on version 1.2 (can't get to version 1.3 at work).

- Some of the point values seemed off (i.e. venomthropes were 50 pts for the first one and 45 for each additional)

- On the formations: there's no way to get pinning anymore. barrage no longer causes pinning, which is one of the reasons I take Living Artillery Node now. Might want to add it to the LAN in you set, or just give it to Biovores. This would be nice to have, especially with the -1 from Shadows and potential -1 from the Primaris power.

- Warriors dropping to 2 wounds reduces their durability to small arms fire or Wyvern type units, while not changing it at all versus S8+ wpns. Moving to a 3+ (version 1.3) doesn't help much, as you still have a mathematically lower durability to small arms, and most S8+ wpns are AP3 or better anyway. Three wounds at 25 pts is fine, as they are currently overcosted for what they bring.

- I almost want Flyrants to cost more, not the same, as they are really good for their price right now.

- Swiftstrike is immensely helpful if the holders of the weapon have Flesh-hooks or some other way to hit at Init, as this means they will be killing the SM with power swords before they get hit back.

- Rupture Cannon - Should be base AP:2. I've seen a version where, if both hit, the second shot is AP:1 and Armourbane, which I like better but only because I dislike D in 40k.

-I'll put more up later tonight once I can see 1.3.

It might be better to just leave it as a text only file (removing all the pictures and the background) until it's been nailed down better, makes it easier to read and flip through rather than waiting for it to download/load on older computers.

Thanks for this! It looks fun but not overpowered.

Version 1.4 is up: drive.google.com/open?id=0B_Xe1GB9HM88ZG5PM0xEcVJQU1U

I did another play-test game and I have officially caved to everybody - Warrior's and Shrikes have been returned to W3 (not Raveners though, I think W2 is fair on such a fast and assaulty unit for only 20ppm).

Most of v1.4 is typo and formatting fixing but I COMPLETELY reworked Instinctive Behaviour based on the discussion going on in a thread over at the Tyranid Hive (http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/51525/tyranids-out-negative-synapse?page=9). So I'd really appreciate feedback on those changes.

Lastly I changed Lash Whips again. Maybe I'll stay happy with them this time.

wraithbalor wrote:
It might be better to just leave it as a text only file (removing all the pictures and the background) until it's been nailed down better, makes it easier to read and flip through rather than waiting for it to download/load on older computers.

This is a good idea but unfortunately I don't have this as a text file, I just edit my Illustrator templates as I change things, so I'd have to compile it into a text file first. I may do that sometime when I have more free time, or I may just start doing 1 page text files outlining the version changes so people can just skim those. Probably the latter.

I like the changes to Instinctive Behaviour, it's no longer a shackle on the army.

One thing about the Defensive Array rule which I don't think is clear, the weapons are all Assault 3 or similar, are you firing one shot each at separate targets or 3 times at separate targets for a total of 9 shots, and can you target the same unit 3 times?

Comments on 1.3

- Tyrant Guard - it would be nice to have the option to take tyrant guard with 2+ armor, as their fluff has always been "most armored creature in existence, such that it doesn't have eyes as that would be a weak spot". Probably would need to cost 20+ points for it, though, especially with 3 wounds.

- Melee weapons: For infantry should drop the cost of melee weapons. In 7th edition, pretty much every melee weapon is overcosted and should be reduced.

- Hormagaunts: Why did they lose 'Bounding leap' or whatever their rule was? If you're going to strip that, it might be worth it to add Ravenous Advance to them.

- Malaceptor: Psychic Overload is still only a mediocre/crappy power. Maybe we could reduce the warp charge to 1, but change it to be a test on 2d6+2, rather than 3d6, which lowers the average from 10.5 to 9. Either that or target 3 units with it, rather than attempting to manifest multiple times.

- Shrikes: Give them the same Extended Carapace upgrade as Warriors.

- Hive Crone: Why did you increase the AP of Acid Spray but not the Drool Cannon? I like the change to the Seeker rule, more in line with Skyfire now. I like having the option for Thorax biomorphs.

- Pyrovore's: I just noticed that they are beasts now. Is that deliberate? I like, as I think we should have a significant amount of beasts. Just not sure if we might be erring on making it too strong, after so long being weak.

- Spore Mines: I like the changes, except maybe leave the min unit size at 3. It might make it way too easy to "null" deploy with single model spore mine units. Not sure though

- Carnifex: I'm loving the thought of ScyTal, CC, 2+ armor fexes slowly marching up the field. I think the lower strength is made up with the extra Hammer of Wrath attack, so that's OK. Why did you make the enhance senses upgrade only on the carnifex? That might actually be a really good upgrade for a lot of our shooty units, though the point value might want to be changed per unit.

- Biovores: might want to give the spore mine launcher Pinning

- Exocrine: Not sure I like the S:8 on the blast, even with the reduced range. Also, why did you remove the No Charging restriction from Symbiotic Targeting?

- Toxicrene: I like the change to Predatory Sentience, now it actually matters. Should we give him Ravenous Advance?

- Mawloc: Should have Ravenous Advance? Also, gave Shred instead of doing twice?

- Trygon/Prime: Would we want to change the bio-electric pulse to either add Tesla type rule or Haywire type rule on 6s? I've seen old Apoc formations that add the Haywire rule that seems pretty interesting.

- Tyrannofex: I still think Rupture Cannon should be AP:2 (as should the Bio-Cannons on the gargantuans). I also think AP:3 on the Acid Spray might be too powerful, or need a point increase. Needs playtesting. Also, why Init 2?

- Tyrannocyte: Maybe rephrase Defense Array as "The three closest legal enemy targets are fired at with the following profile" as you don't really have a choice on firing the weapon right now. Other than that, I like the changes

- Swarmy: I LOVE the changes to him! The only thing on him that I question is the change to Swarm Leader to be unable to target his unit. Maybe make it so that his unit and the other gets it, or he can target himself as well? I think the warlord trait needs a little work as well. Maybe make it so that one additional unit can Infiltrate, so it's not quite as good as Master of Ambush (from the Strategic traits table) or D3 for randomness sake. Also, maybe raise Init to 6?

- Psychic powers:
- Tyranogenesis should be 1 WC or just make it a copy of the Endurance power (kinda like GW just did with the new Chaos powers).
- Spirit Leech: I like that it can be used for any other spells, instead of just WC.
- Aura of Despair: Rather than a malediction, why not make it a blessing tied to the Psyker, i.e. it makes a 12" aura around the Psyker that causes all enemies to have a -1 to LD.
- Paroxysm: I like the set value, though even at 3 and including LD it doesn't quite feel like a WC 2 power. Iron Arm got changed from D3 to 3 and stayed at WC 1. The addition of Init and Attacks would make it a WC 2 power, but then it goes from the low-end of WC 2 to the high end. Maybe add attacks, but change the number reduced by to 2?
- Hypnotic gaze: Ah memories! Now I'm not sure if the Broodlord should have Horror or this. Maybe give them the option to pick? Gaze is the more quintessential Broodlord power.
- Overall: I like the changes and having more options is better than the one table we have now.

-Melee Weapons:
- I like CC being +2 S and AP1, makes them worth the points more things than just Carnifexes.
- And I like the changes to Acid Maw, much more useful now.
- With the addition of quasi assault grenades to ScyTals, maybe we should reduce the cost of Flesh Hooks?

- Shooting Weapons:
- I really like the living ammunition rule. Super fluffy and not too strong
- Barbed Strangler Array: If it's only 1 shot, probably shouldn't cost 25 points. I'd reduce the cost of this to 15 points, and VC too.
- Fleshborer hive: Either twin linked or the extra ten shots, but not both for free. Even with the 12" range, that's a lot of shots that are twin linked.
- Strangleweb: Needs to be S4, as it is the upgrade is not equal to a devourer.

- Biomorphs:
- Flesh hooks: Why lost 2" in range?
- Toxic Miasma: Why Poison 5+ now?
- I like the changes to the Tail Biomorphs
- Invasion leader: What does the maximum limit mean? Can you only add or subtract 2 total? I.e if you have a warlord with the trait to +- 1, Swarmy (not warlord) for +-1 and this upgrade, you can still only subtract or add 2? If so should reword to "may only modify the role by a maximum of 2"
- Indescribable Horror: Was it discard the lowest before, or just take the test on 3d6? Fear matters so little to the game that I forget.

- Bio-artifacts:
- Maw-claws: I really want to give them a better form of Rending.
- Reaper: I wouldn't give it Instant Death, as now they are better than Swarmy's sabers with the exception of the invul. Or we could give Swarmy's sabers Shred
- Zu-ul: Maybe make it one of each, and say Save instead of Armour Save, as you might want to re-roll a Cover or Invul save (if possible?)
- Ymgarl: Like it!
- Norn Crown: Like the addition of the Invul, should still only be 20-25 points.

Formations:
- I like the run/charge bonus, very fitting for us.
- Royal Node: needs another bonus, maybe FNP or something for making them tougher. Especially as, if you take Swarmy you get no bonus at all with the formation.
- Invasion swarm: I'd give either Hatred or Rage, rather than FC, as we can get FC from Adrenals. If you took this with nothing but Hormies, the benefit makes it so Adrenals are worthless. Also, why spore mines?
- I like the Genestealer infestation.
- Assasination Node: Make it 0-1 Deathleaper.
- Subterranean Assault: I'd make it so that everyone re-rolls scatter.
- LAN: I'm not sure why you would want split fire on Biovores. Unless two biovores is just the tax to be able to take split-firing carni broods. Maybe add pinning or a form of twin-linked like the current Artillery node?
- Guardian node: One dead Knight a turn. Check
- Burning Node: Why put Pyrovores and Exocrine together? Pyrovores want to be in the face of the enemy (and as beasts are significantly faster) while the Exocrine is a mid-range artillery piece.
- Wrecker Node: YES!

Any plans of redoing the IA4 models (i.e. our Gargantuans, Malanthrope, and Dimachaeron)?

I like this a lot, you have done some really good work here. I'll be able to give some comments on 1.4 tonight. Hopefully I can get some friends to play-test this on Friday.

 Imateria wrote:
I like the changes to Instinctive Behaviour, it's no longer a shackle on the army.

One thing about the Defensive Array rule which I don't think is clear, the weapons are all Assault 3 or similar, are you firing one shot each at separate targets or 3 times at separate targets for a total of 9 shots, and can you target the same unit 3 times?

I'm glad you like the IB changes, I feel like after a bunch of false starts that it finally suitably respects the fluff but doesn't hinder the army unduly.

The intention is you shoot the full profile at each target so each target receives three shots. I'm not sure if I need to rethink the wording or just add an example so its clearer.

I think it just needs to say "The profile can be fired 3 times at 3 separate targets." somewhere in there.

Beautiful formatting. I'm slowly making my own fandex and I have no idea how to make it this pretty.

As for the rules, I have yet to read them, probably not as OP as mine.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Tyrant Guard - it would be nice to have the option to take tyrant guard with 2+ armor, as their fluff has always been "most armored creature in existence, such that it doesn't have eyes as that would be a weak spot". Probably would need to cost 20+ points for it, though, especially with 3 wounds.

Good call, I'll add that to v1.5.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Melee weapons: For infantry should drop the cost of melee weapons. In 7th edition, pretty much every melee weapon is overcosted and should be reduced.

I agree that melee weapons are overcosted across the board but until GW brings the others in line I'll keep ours comparable for meta-balance purposes.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Hormagaunts: Why did they lose 'Bounding leap' or whatever their rule was? If you're going to strip that, it might be worth it to add Ravenous Advance to them.

Bounding Leap was a (poor) replacement for the Beasts unit type loss in 5th Ed. Since they've regained Beasts I just dropped it. Being Beasts makes them pretty fast now.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Malaceptor: Psychic Overload is still only a mediocre/crappy power. Maybe we could reduce the warp charge to 1, but change it to be a test on 2d6+2, rather than 3d6, which lowers the average from 10.5 to 9. Either that or target 3 units with it, rather than attempting to manifest multiple times.

I like both options but need to playtest to see which one should go into v1.5.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Shrikes: Give them the same Extended Carapace upgrade as Warriors.

I did in v1.4 haha, I had forgotten to transfer a lot of the Warrior changes to Shrikes in 1.3.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Hive Crone: Why did you increase the AP of Acid Spray but not the Drool Cannon? I like the change to the Seeker rule, more in line with Skyfire now. I like having the option for Thorax biomorphs.

I don't like AP3 templates on highly mobile units, its ignores too many defensive attributes and is something that becomes just innately overpowered. The Heldrakes AP3 template is one of the things that really had a negative effect on the meta. Plus this makes the Tyrannofex's higher price point more worth it.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Pyrovore's: I just noticed that they are beasts now. Is that deliberate? I like, as I think we should have a significant amount of beasts. Just not sure if we might be erring on making it too strong, after so long being weak.

Yah, they've always looked like fast units to me. They are built like a gorilla with those immense front arms and thick back legs, they should charge like a ton of bricks. You may be right about too cheap now. I've been so used to all our elites being highly overcosted that I may have overcorrected. I think they'd still be worth taking at 45.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Spore Mines: I like the changes, except maybe leave the min unit size at 3. It might make it way too easy to "null" deploy with single model spore mine units. Not sure though

The min unit size needs to be 1 or they are just worse in literally every way than Mucolids (being the same price and Wounds but being lower toughness and doing less damage). Plus null-deplying with 10 Spores spread across the board and everything else in Tyrannocites or Deep Striking sounds INCREDIBLY fluffy to me, I'm actually 100% ok with that.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Carnifex: I'm loving the thought of ScyTal, CC, 2+ armor fexes slowly marching up the field. I think the lower strength is made up with the extra Hammer of Wrath attack, so that's OK. Why did you make the enhance senses upgrade only on the carnifex? That might actually be a really good upgrade for a lot of our shooty units, though the point value might want to be changed per unit.

That's how I run mine as well using this FanDex, haha. Partially the upgrade is unique to Fex's because they are the only ones with the bits for it, and partially because I don't actually like the upgrade very much. +1 Ballistics is better for sure, but it goes against the idea of Tyranids which is medium volumes of medium accurate shots, sitting at a mid-point between Necrons and Orks. the Tyranids are highly adaptable but that doesn't have to mean better. Sometimes the better adaptation is making three swarm creatures as opposed to 1 bigger.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Biovores: might want to give the spore mine launcher Pinning

With the Symbiotic Targeting special rule I've already buffed a decent unit. I added Pinning to the LAN formation to compensate.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Exocrine: Not sure I like the S:8 on the blast, even with the reduced range. Also, why did you remove the No Charging restriction from Symbiotic Targeting?

What don't you like about it? Too strong? I removed the No Charging restriction because killing the movement on an already poorly ranged creature seems like enough of a penalty to warrant the buff.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Toxicrene: I like the change to Predatory Sentience, now it actually matters. Should we give him Ravenous Advance?

That's not a bad idea, they do LOOK fast.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Mawloc: Should have Ravenous Advance? Also, gave Shred instead of doing twice?

He's not great in CC and I wanted to promote people re-burrowing him as his faster movement rather than running him across the board. Shred is slightly worse than doing it twice, but is much simpler and I really wanted to get the complexity of Terror from the Deep down.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Trygon/Prime: Would we want to change the bio-electric pulse to either add Tesla type rule or Haywire type rule on 6s? I've seen old Apoc formations that add the Haywire rule that seems pretty interesting.

Haywire makes them too good at too many things. Adding Shock/Tesla wouldn't be bad though. With the points decreases and buffs they've already received though do they need any more buffs?

wraithbalorl wrote:- Tyrannofex: I still think Rupture Cannon should be AP:2 (as should the Bio-Cannons on the gargantuans). I also think AP:3 on the Acid Spray might be too powerful, or need a point increase. Needs playtesting. Also, why Init 2?

Maybe, the points would have to go up though if I made it AP2. In my playtesting the acid Spray is powerful but mitigated by how slow the unit is. Init 2 in order to emphasize the slow ponderous inevitability of the beast.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Tyrannocyte: Maybe rephrase Defense Array as "The three closest legal enemy targets are fired at with the following profile" as you don't really have a choice on firing the weapon right now. Other than that, I like the changes

Good phrasing.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Swarmy: I LOVE the changes to him! The only thing on him that I question is the change to Swarm Leader to be unable to target his unit. Maybe make it so that his unit and the other gets it, or he can target himself as well? I think the warlord trait needs a little work as well. Maybe make it so that one additional unit can Infiltrate, so it's not quite as good as Master of Ambush (from the Strategic traits table) or D3 for randomness sake. Also, maybe raise Init to 6?

I took Swarm Leader from being able to effect itself away because the idea is the Swarmlord is a tactical genius, able to better control the Hives forces. If it can buff itself then it feels like just a quasi-psychic power (and also being able to give itself Tank Hunter and then fire Warp Lance or Cataclysm seems way OP to me).

wraithbalorl wrote: - Tyranogenesis should be 1 WC or just make it a copy of the Endurance power (kinda like GW just did with the new Chaos powers).

I gotta disagree, we get a LOT more benefit to Eternal Warrior than other armies do with our huge volume of high W high T monsters. A Flyrant granting itself and the Carnifex Brood of 3 charging up the field Eternal Warrior is definitely a WC 2 ability.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Aura of Despair: Rather than a malediction, why not make it a blessing tied to the Psyker, i.e. it makes a 12" aura around the Psyker that causes all enemies to have a -1 to LD.

Is there a gameplay difference I'm missing?

wraithbalorl wrote: - Paroxysm: I like the set value, though even at 3 and including LD it doesn't quite feel like a WC 2 power. Iron Arm got changed from D3 to 3 and stayed at WC 1. The addition of Init and Attacks would make it a WC 2 power, but then it goes from the low-end of WC 2 to the high end. Maybe add attacks, but change the number reduced by to 2?

Gotta disagree again sorry. Paroxysm gets us a lot more benefit than it would another army with our high amount of WS 5 models. Dropping other elite units to WS 2 so they have to roll 5+ to hit most of our assault units is really powerful, moreso than it would be if other armies had it, like Orks.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Hypnotic gaze: Ah memories! Now I'm not sure if the Broodlord should have Horror or this. Maybe give them the option to pick? Gaze is the more quintessential Broodlord power.

You have a point - all of the Domination Powers are Broodlord derived, why not just let them roll normally.

wraithbalorl wrote: - I like CC being +2 S and AP1, makes them worth the points more things than just Carnifexes.

wraithbalorl wrote: - And I like the changes to Acid Maw, much more useful now.

Thanks!

wraithbalorl wrote: - With the addition of quasi assault grenades to ScyTals, maybe we should reduce the cost of Flesh Hooks?

Flesh Hooks are still mostly only 5pts or less on most models so I'm not sure they get much of a benefit for being any cheaper.

wraithbalorl wrote: - I really like the living ammunition rule. Super fluffy and not too strong

wraithbalorl wrote: - Barbed Strangler Array: If it's only 1 shot, probably shouldn't cost 25 points. I'd reduce the cost of this to 15 points, and VC too.

15 seems really cheap, you do get to fire them at up to 3 targets and since they have MUCH better range than the Deathspitters you're more likely to always be able to fire all three. I'll playtest them at 20 though and see what its like.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Fleshborer hive: Either twin linked or the extra ten shots, but not both for free. Even with the 12" range, that's a lot of shots that are twin linked.

Yah good point. I'll drop them to 20 shots.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Strangleweb: Needs to be S4, as it is the upgrade is not equal to a devourer.

Or make it a free swap instead of making it better.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Flesh hooks: Why lost 2" in range?

Flesh Hooks have always been 6", it's Spine Banks that have the 8" range.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Toxic Miasma: Why Poison 5+ now?

For simplicity sake I made it every "unit" involved takes a hit for every model in the unit rather than every model in B2B, which makes it hit a LOT more models potentially. It needed a nerf after that.

wraithbalorl wrote: - I like the changes to the Tail Biomorphs

Thanks! I really like the idea of the Tail Biomorphs but they were so clumsy and unnecessarily complicated before.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Invasion leader: What does the maximum limit mean? Can you only add or subtract 2 total? I.e if you have a warlord with the trait to +- 1, Swarmy (not warlord) for +-1 and this upgrade, you can still only subtract or add 2? If so should reword to "may only modify the role by a maximum of 2"

You've read it backwards its "max of 2+" not a "max of +2", meaning that you can never get your reserves on a roll of 1+ (i.e can't get them automatically), but you can reduce the dice by as much as you want.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Indescribable Horror: Was it discard the lowest before, or just take the test on 3d6? Fear matters so little to the game that I forget.

Same as before.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Maw-claws: I really want to give them a better form of Rending.

Good point, AP4 wouldn't be overpowered.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Reaper: I wouldn't give it Instant Death, as now they are better than Swarmy's sabers with the exception of the invul. Or we could give Swarmy's sabers Shred

Good point, maybe Super LIfe Drain for ID on 5+ instead of 6. But with a better name than "Super Life Drain" hahaha.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Zu-ul: Maybe make it one of each, and say Save instead of Armour Save, as you might want to re-roll a Cover or Invul save (if possible?)

If I did 2 I'd have to make it more expensive and I wanted to keep it cheap so we have a couple cheap options. Yah, it should cover Cover and Invul saves as well. Its essentially Necrons 5th Ed Chronometron and that was always worth its 10pts even only getting one re-roll a turn.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Norn Crown: Like the addition of the Invul, should still only be 20-25 points.

20 pts is waaaay too cheap, but I could see 30.

wraithbalorl wrote: - I like the run/charge bonus, very fitting for us.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Royal Node: needs another bonus, maybe FNP or something for making them tougher. Especially as, if you take Swarmy you get no bonus at all with the formation.

Good point. FNP seems a bit strong but they need something extra, yah.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Invasion swarm: I'd give either Hatred or Rage, rather than FC, as we can get FC from Adrenals. If you took this with nothing but Hormies, the benefit makes it so Adrenals are worthless. Also, why spore mines?

I was thinking that it made Adrenals unnecessary and therefore you could save the points by not taking them andt hat was essentially the buff, but I guess that doesn't really make any sense because those units will eventually have to leave the bubble. I'll change it Rage.

wraithbalorl wrote: - I like the Genestealer infestation.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Assasination Node: Make it 0-1 Deathleaper.

If I make it 0-1 Deathleaper I'll have to change it from 1-3 Lictor Broods to either 2-3 or maybe 3-5, otherwise its just a free buff to Lictors with no tax.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Subterranean Assault: I'd make it so that everyone re-rolls scatter.

The Trygons already have mishap protective but yah, I should extend it to the Mawlocs to make up for taking the Lictor combo away from them.

wraithbalorl wrote:- LAN: I'm not sure why you would want split fire on Biovores. Unless two biovores is just the tax to be able to take split-firing carni broods. Maybe add pinning or a form of twin-linked like the current Artillery node?

The 1.4 version is very different.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Guardian node: One dead Knight a turn. Check

Yah, it's expensive in terms of units but we need a reliable way to deal with SuperHeavies and this seemed fair but not OP.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Burning Node: Why put Pyrovores and Exocrine together? Pyrovores want to be in the face of the enemy (and as beasts are significantly faster) while the Exocrine is a mid-range artillery piece.

For those people who would rather run a gunline than a horde. It's not how *I* enjoy playing my Tyranids but I know some people do.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Wrecker Node: YES!

I'm a little worried this is OP but it requires you to hyper specialize your units, and Carni's are still slow.

wraithbalorl wrote:Any plans of redoing the IA4 models (i.e. our Gargantuans, Malanthrope, and Dimachaeron)?

Yes but I'll do it as a separate FanDex (i.e. Anphelion Project Fan Edition) after the core codex is finished.

wraithbalorl wrote:I like this a lot, you have done some really good work here. I'll be able to give some comments on 1.4 tonight. Hopefully I can get some friends to play-test this on Friday.

I'd really appreciate getting feedback after you've played a game. I've done a decent amount of play testing on my own but (as we've seen with GW) 1 person playing their style is not a substitute for lots of people with different playstyles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyran wrote:
Beautiful formatting. I'm slowly making my own fandex and I have no idea how to make it this pretty.

As for the rules, I have yet to read them, probably not as OP as mine.

I put the .ai template file in that shared folder. If you have access to Adobe Illustrator or another program that can use .ai files feel free to use it.

I agree that melee weapons are overcosted across the board but until GW brings the others in line I'll keep ours comparable for meta-balance purposes.

Good call.

Bounding Leap was a (poor) replacement for the Beasts unit type loss in 5th Ed. Since they've regained Beasts I just dropped it. Being Beasts makes them pretty fast now.

Wow, I'm an idiot and completely missed they got Beasts.

wraithbalorl wrote:
- Malaceptor: Psychic Overload is still only a mediocre/crappy power. Maybe we could reduce the warp charge to 1, but change it to be a test on 2d6+2, rather than 3d6, which lowers the average from 10.5 to 9. Either that or target 3 units with it, rather than attempting to manifest multiple times.

I like both options but need to playtest to see which one should go into v1.5.

My main disagreement with the WC2 version is that it takes 3 successes to be "Focused" which takes around 6 dice to be reliable. So 18 dice to get it off three times. That's a lot of dice for a roughly 50% odds of doing some damage to a couple characters.

I don't like AP3 templates on highly mobile units, its ignores too many defensive attributes and is something that becomes just innately overpowered. The Heldrakes AP3 template is one of the things that really had a negative effect on the meta. Plus this makes the Tyrannofex's higher price point more worth it.

I agree the Crone's shouldn't be AP3. I'm more worried that the Tyrannofex shouldn't be. I know I hate AP3 (or AP2!) flamers, so I'm worried that a Torrent S6 AP3 flamer is too much for the Tyrannofex.

The min unit size needs to be 1 or they are just worse in literally every way than Mucolids (being the same price and Wounds but being lower toughness and doing less damage). Plus null-deplying with 10 Spores spread across the board and everything else in Tyrannocites or Deep Striking sounds INCREDIBLY fluffy to me, I'm actually 100% ok with that.

OK, makes sense to me.

What don't you like about it? Too strong? I removed the No Charging restriction because killing the movement on an already poorly ranged creature seems like enough of a penalty to warrant the buff.

Yup, I think it might be too strong. S8 gives us ID against T4, adding yet another nail in the Coffin of why Grey Knight Paladins are useless. I think the game should have less S8+ AP2 large blast/lots of shots guns (I know I directly contradict that with the Rupture Cannon, but I think 2 or less shots high S/AP is OK, the problem is large blast/3+ shots)

With the points decreases and buffs they've already received though do they need any more buffs?

Trygons/Primes probably don't need any buffs. That might be a good idea for a different formation later (in the expansion book) to add to them, with some tax units.

Maybe, the points would have to go up though if I made it AP2. In my playtesting the acid Spray is powerful but mitigated by how slow the unit is. Init 2 in order to emphasize the slow ponderous inevitability of the beast.

I'd be fine with paying 25 or more points for the RC if it was AP2 and had the possible D hit. Makes it feel more Anti-Tank. OK, I'm used to dropping a T-fex in the backfield with a T-cyte, which mitigates their slowness and roasts Long Fangs/Dev squads alive now. Why I'm worried. More playtesting!.

I took Swarm Leader from being able to effect itself away because the idea is the Swarmlord is a tactical genius, able to better control the Hives forces. If it can buff itself then it feels like just a quasi-psychic power (and also being able to give itself Tank Hunter and then fire Warp Lance or Cataclysm seems way OP to me).

Ok. I like that feeling as well. Tank Hunter doesn't affect Strength D shots, so it'd only buff WL.

I gotta disagree, we get a LOT more benefit to Eternal Warrior than other armies do with our huge volume of high W high T monsters. A Flyrant granting itself and the Carnifex Brood of 3 charging up the field Eternal Warrior is definitely a WC 2 ability.

Except the Carni's and Flyrant don't need it much, as Force/ID is a fairly rare thing. It makes us stronger vs. Grey Knights. It's more of a benefit to Warriors/Shrikes/ Our T4/5 multiwound models as it protects us from that random Krak missile, but it does the same thing to a Wulfen squad or Flesh Hound squad. I still like it. I think my disagreement is something like my disagreement with the Maleceptor's power, and thats the unreliability of getting a WC2 power off (though this might just be me. I've failed WC2 powers on 8 dice multiple times).

Is there a gameplay difference I'm missing?

Partially a feeling difference (i.e. he's emitting it constantly rather than one time), partially a blessing is harder to deny, and it will move with him if he charges/runs, and the opponent can get rid of it by killing the Psyker.

Gotta disagree again sorry. Paroxysm gets us a lot more benefit than it would another army with our high amount of WS 5 models. Dropping other elite units to WS 2 so they have to roll 5+ to hit most of our assault units is really powerful, moreso than it would be if other armies had it, like Orks

Good point, wasn't thinking of other WS5 guys.

wraithbalorl wrote:
- Barbed Strangler Array: If it's only 1 shot, probably shouldn't cost 25 points. I'd reduce the cost of this to 15 points, and VC too.
15 seems really cheap, you do get to fire them at up to 3 targets and since they have MUCH better range than the Deathspitters you're more likely to always be able to fire all three. I'll playtest them at 20 though and see what its like.

I saw (after I wrote this) that the Venom Cannon Array is Assault 3, while the Barbed Strangler is Assault 1. Is that deliberate? You're right on cost. Even at 25 pts its still cheaper than it was.

Or make [strangleweb] a free swap instead of making it better.

Yeah, could do that. It's just that, at S2 AP-, its just about useless (needs a 5-6 to wound, then they have armor, and Pinning requires an unsaved wound to go through).

Flesh Hooks have always been 6", it's Spine Banks that have the 8" range

Thats what I get for commenting without my rulebook.

For simplicity sake I made it every "unit" involved takes a hit for every model in the unit rather than every model in B2B, which makes it hit a LOT more models potentially. It needed a nerf after that.

Good point

You've read it backwards its "max of 2+" not a "max of +2", meaning that you can never get your reserves on a roll of 1+ (i.e can't get them automatically), but you can reduce the dice by as much as you want.

Except a 3 is what is needed to bring in reserves, assuming you have no penalties, so on a 1 you'll still get them in with 2+. You could add a line that "a roll of a 1 on the dice fails the reserve roll even when using this rule"

Good point, maybe Super LIfe Drain for ID on 5+ instead of 6. But with a better name than "Super Life Drain" hahaha.

Ultra Life Drain (on a 5+ except vs Smurfs, where its a 4+)

20 pts is waaaay too cheap, but I could see 30.

Yeah, 30 might work. Maybe make it a 4+ invul (like an Iron Halo) as well?

If I make it 0-1 Deathleaper I'll have to change it from 1-3 Lictor Broods to either 2-3 or maybe 3-5, otherwise its just a free buff to Lictors with no tax.

The problem with including Deathleaper is that he is unique, and thus you can only ever have one of these formations. If we keep Deathleaper, I'd like it to be 1-6 broods, so you can bring more Lictors if you want.

The 1.4 version is very different.

I like the new LAN!

I'm a little worried this is OP but it requires you to hyper specialize your units, and Carni's are still slow.

I don't think it's to OP, as the Carni's are the real danger and they are really slow. Makes Knights stay away, though, as they get munched now.

Yes but I'll do it as a separate FanDex (i.e. Anphelion Project Fan Edition) after the core codex is finished.

Awesome! I love the thought of Ravenous Advance (or increasing Leap) for Dima, and the Malanthrope needs a point increase or nerfing. Our Gargs need so much help.

'd really appreciate getting feedback after you've played a game. I've done a decent amount of play testing on my own but (as we've seen with GW) 1 person playing their style is not a substitute for lots of people with different playstyles.

Will do, I should have some friends who'd be interested in playtesting.


Version 1.4 Comments

- I like the changes to Synapse/IB. Makes it beneficial to us for being in it (beyond Fearless which has it's own drawbacks) while still being punishing outside it. Now it's even more important to kill the Synapse first.
- Maleceptor: I just realized that you changed the power to be D3 wounds with no saves of anykind. Definitely worth WC2 now.
- Pyrovore: His explosion should have Ignores Cover?
- Gargoyles: Raised their cost because of the AP2 weapon? Might be good to have the bliding venom/plasma as options. Might make Blinding venom cause a blind test with a -1 to Init for every 2 additional hits?
- Hive Crone: One thought would be to add a clause to Seeking that lets them fire all 4 in a single phase (if they fire no other weapons).
- Shrikes: 4+ armor shrikes! No longer fearing of SMS looking at them funny.
- Mawloc: Maybe give him 1 set of ScyTals, to get the assault grenade benefit.
- Spore Mine Launcher: Probably should clarify how many Spore Mines you get if you have a unit of more than 1 Biovore.
- Swarmy: Give him the Prehensile Pincer or Thresher Scythe tail benefit (I"m not sure which one his model has)?
- Royal Node: Possible upgrade - Defensive Advance"The Tyrant and his guard move into a defensive position for advancing up the field. If the Tyrant has joined the unit of Tyrant Guard, they may move up using a Defensive Advance. The unit gains the FNP (5+) rule, but moves as if in difficult terrain" based on an Apoc formation upgrade that is similar (the Apoc formation gives +1 to armor saves and Shrouded, but that might be too strong for normal 40k).
- Invasion swarm (or another formation): We should have a formation that gives similar rules to Endless Swarm (i.e. hormies/termies come back on a 4+) to give the feeling of an endless horde. Traitor's hate has something like that for Cultists, so it's not too overpowered, though we might want to say they come back with no upgrades, so you don't get recycling Dakkagants
- Aerial Predator Node: No need to allow beasts/cavalry, as they can't be pinned. Units that cannot go to ground cannot be pinned.
- Living Artillery Node: The Tyranid Prime can't take a Bio-cannon. Maybe rephrase it to "The Tyranid Prime may and must take a Basic Bio-Cannon" to make it clear that we are adding the ability for him to do so here?

I can't wait to try this out!

So how does this fandex deals with things like invisibility, rerolleable 2++ saves and grav spam?

Also like the normal codex, it seems to be quite screwed against melee walkers as only the Carnifex has decent melee anti-tank.

wraithbalor wrote:I agree the Crone's shouldn't be AP3. I'm more worried that the Tyrannofex shouldn't be. I know I hate AP3 (or AP2!) flamers, so I'm worried that a Torrent S6 AP3 flamer is too much for the Tyrannofex.

I see your point, but it's a very slow unit and to make it "fast" requires putting it in a 65 pt transport. The key problem is that a Strength 6 AP4 flamer is far too under-powered for how expensive the Tyrannofex needs to be because of its massive durability. A compromise would be Strength 5 AP3 - its not quite as punishing on MEQ's since it's only Wounding on 3s instead of 2s but still gives us something besides "bucketloads of dice" to handle massed 3+ saves, especially considering how that's our main strategy against most things.

wraithbalor wrote:Yup, I think it might be too strong. S8 gives us ID against T4, adding yet another nail in the Coffin of why Grey Knight Paladins are useless. I think the game should have less S8+ AP2 large blast/lots of shots guns (I know I directly contradict that with the Rupture Cannon, but I think 2 or less shots high S/AP is OK, the problem is large blast/3+ shots)

I could be persuaded to go the other way, Str 6 AP 2 but up the range to 30" on the Large Blast.

wraithbalor wrote:I'd be fine with paying 25 or more points for the RC if it was AP2 and had the possible D hit. Makes it feel more Anti-Tank. OK, I'm used to dropping a T-fex in the backfield with a T-cyte, which mitigates their slowness and roasts Long Fangs/Dev squads alive now. Why I'm worried. More playtesting!.

Yah I need to play around with this some. Making it AP2 just makes it a super lascannon and it gets both too effective and less fluffy.

wraithbalor wrote:Except the Carni's and Flyrant don't need it much, as Force/ID is a fairly rare thing. It makes us stronger vs. Grey Knights. It's more of a benefit to Warriors/Shrikes/ Our T4/5 multiwound models as it protects us from that random Krak missile, but it does the same thing to a Wulfen squad or Flesh Hound squad. I still like it. I think my disagreement is something like my disagreement with the Maleceptor's power, and thats the unreliability of getting a WC2 power off (though this might just be me. I've failed WC2 powers on 8 dice multiple times).

See I face a lot more Eldar than Grey Knights and I'm sick of my MC's getting head-shot by Instant Death weapons.

wraithbalor wrote:Partially a feeling difference (i.e. he's emitting it constantly rather than one time), partially a blessing is harder to deny, and it will move with him if he charges/runs, and the opponent can get rid of it by killing the Psyker.

All good points, I'll change it.

wraithbalor wrote:I saw (after I wrote this) that the Venom Cannon Array is Assault 3, while the Barbed Strangler is Assault 1. Is that deliberate? You're right on cost. Even at 25 pts its still cheaper than it was.

That was a mistake, both the upgrades should be Assault 1. I also forgot to add Living ammunition to the Deathspitter Array.

wraithbalor wrote:Yeah, could do that. It's just that, at S2 AP-, its just about useless (needs a 5-6 to wound, then they have armor, and Pinning requires an unsaved wound to go through).

Good point. Maybe I'll just change it to a special rule that automatically causes a Pinning Test. I don't really want effective Flamers dotted throughout our Gant units, it just feels so unfluffy.

wraithbalor wrote:Except a 3 is what is needed to bring in reserves, assuming you have no penalties, so on a 1 you'll still get them in with 2+. You could add a line that "a roll of a 1 on the dice fails the reserve roll even when using this rule"

Haha I had always interpreted these rules to mean they modified your target number not your die roll (as in a plus 1 means going from a 3+ is a success to a 2+ is a success) but I 100% get what you mean now. Yah I'll reword it so a 1 is always a failure.

wraithbalor wrote:Yeah, 30 might work. Maybe make it a 4+ invul (like an Iron Halo) as well?

No, that would be fine on Tyranid Primes or Broodlords but would be close to abusive on a Flyrant (could never be forced to Jink), and if I made it expensive enough to be balanced on a Flyrant it would be too expensive to ever be worth taking on anything else.

wraithbalor wrote:The problem with including Deathleaper is that he is unique, and thus you can only ever have one of these formations. If we keep Deathleaper, I'd like it to be 1-6 broods, so you can bring more Lictors if you want.

That is a very good point, oops! I'll make it 0-1 Deathleapers and 3-5 Lictors.

wraithbalor wrote: - Pyrovore: His explosion should have Ignores Cover?

Yes it should, my bad.

wraithbalor wrote: - Gargoyles: Raised their cost because of the AP2 weapon? Might be good to have the bliding venom/plasma as options. Might make Blinding venom cause a blind test with a -1 to Init for every 2 additional hits?

Yah, it was pointed out to me that Str 4 AP2 on such a mobile platform was edging on OP so I upped the points. I'll think about letting them be a swap - 6pts base with the current Blinding Venom, and then a 2pt upgrade to swap for Bio Plasma.

wraithbalor wrote: - Hive Crone: One thought would be to add a clause to Seeking that lets them fire all 4 in a single phase (if they fire no other weapons).

That seems a bit too good, that basically auto-kills most Flyers unless they Jink.

wraithbalor wrote: - Mawloc: Maybe give him 1 set of ScyTals, to get the assault grenade benefit.

Objectively that makes him better but works counter to the spirit of trying to get him out of combat and burrowed again that Hit & Run implies.

wraithbalor wrote: - Spore Mine Launcher: Probably should clarify how many Spore Mines you get if you have a unit of more than 1 Biovore.

Each shot scatters independently since they are separate attacks, so each miss generates D3 spore mines. Judging by the fact that this came up on the actual-Dex FAQ as well it needs to be re-worded.

wraithbalor wrote: - Swarmy: Give him the Prehensile Pincer or Thresher Scythe tail benefit (I"m not sure which one his model has)?

Prehensile Pincer. He's pretty powerful already, does he need Precision Strikes as well? It does fit his fluff though...

wraithbalor wrote: - Royal Node: Possible upgrade - Defensive Advance"The Tyrant and his guard move into a defensive position for advancing up the field. If the Tyrant has joined the unit of Tyrant Guard, they may move up using a Defensive Advance. The unit gains the FNP (5+) rule, but moves as if in difficult terrain" based on an Apoc formation upgrade that is similar (the Apoc formation gives +1 to armor saves and Shrouded, but that might be too strong for normal 40k).

I'm sorry to say I dislike this idea, the Swarmlord/walking Tyrants are slow enough to begin with. FNP could work but I prefer not to hand FNP automatically to things that can very easily have a 2+ save. I'd rather the Tyrant Guard get "Overlapping Armour" or something and gain a 5+ Invul instead.

wraithbalor wrote: - Invasion swarm (or another formation): We should have a formation that gives similar rules to Endless Swarm (i.e. hormies/termies come back on a 4+) to give the feeling of an endless horde. Traitor's hate has something like that for Cultists, so it's not too overpowered, though we might want to say they come back with no upgrades, so you don't get recycling Dakkagants

We have a Warlord trait that allows this but a larger formation that requires a lot of tax units but gives you unending gribblies could be really fun and fluffy. Make it large enough that its not ever going to be used in a tournament but would be fun as all hell in an Apoc game.

wraithbalor wrote: - Aerial Predator Node: No need to allow beasts/cavalry, as they can't be pinned. Units that cannot go to ground cannot be pinned.

Good catch, thank you.

wraithbalor wrote: - Living Artillery Node: The Tyranid Prime can't take a Bio-cannon. Maybe rephrase it to "The Tyranid Prime may and must take a Basic Bio-Cannon" to make it clear that we are adding the ability for him to do so here?

Oh, I thought I'd given it to the tyranid Prime but I didn't. Which now that I am writing this makes sense since I was trying to build the unit out to be support/fighty. Yah, I'll just take the Tyranid Prime option out so its a Warrior Brood tax.

Tyran wrote:So how does this fandex deals with things like invisibility, rerolleable 2++ saves and grav spam?

The technical answer:

- Invisibility is best dealt with by giving yourself re-rolls to get those 6's, and I've given us a lot more options for Twin-Linked/Preferred Enemy and other re-rolls, in addition the Mawloc's Terror from the Deep can explicitly target Invisible units now. It's also going to be a lot harder to get off with the new Shadow in the Warp.

- 2++ re-rollable is best dealt with by D weapons which I've given us limited access too (Cataclysm and the Rupture Cannon), or just by weight of fire and with out cheaper models all around (and more importantly with making the smaller bugs useful again) we can drown and or tarpit deathstars.

- Grav spam dies pretty quickly to hordes of small critters with low armour saves, and we can pour those into people in spades. Grav Cents are going to hate the new Gargoyles since they only have that 6+ Armour but can choose to strike at Str 4 AP2 and can take huge squads for pretty cheap (or just Toxin-Sac Horms en masse).

The true answer:

Haven't given it much thought. The truly abusive lists are still going to be a bit of a problem but I'm not interested in writing a Codex that joins them. I want Tyranids to be better, so that they aren't relegated to the bottom tier forever, and I believe I've done that (with other peoples help). This Codex can now go toe-to-toe with a competitive (but not abusive) list from any army. I'm not interested in giving Nids any abusive combos of their own (and if someone finds one I made by accident I'm gonna nerf it real quick, haha).

Tyran wrote:Also like the normal codex, it seems to be quite screwed against melee walkers as only the Carnifex has decent melee anti-tank.

I don't think that's accurate, the changes to Crushing Claws buff a number of other units. Haruspex are now fast enough to engage on their terms, and hit much harder with 4 (5 on the charge) WS5 S8 AP1 attacks with Armourbane, which will chew through most Walkers. Tyrant Guard as well to a smaller degree, and both got cheaper. The Haruspex significantly so. Add in the Wrecker Node formation and I think we've come close to consigning all non-Knights to the scrap-heap. Even Knights I think we can handle on an even basis in my playtesting experience.


.

Quick note on one of Wraithbalor's comments, a roll of a 1 is always a failure so there's no automatic reserve rolls.

Also, I don't think having the Harpy fire all of it's missiles in a turn to be a bad thing. Being an MC it's limited to firing 2 weapons whilst Flyers can fire 4. For instance a Razorwing Jetfighter has 2 Disintegrator Cannons (S5, AP2, Heavy 3) and can be given a Splinter Cannon (S1, AP5, Salvo 4/6, Poisoned (4+)), on top of that it has 4 missiles (S6, AP5, Large Blast, One Use Only) which thanks to the FAQ can be fired at other flyers thanks to Skyfire and after firing the 4th weapon all other can be snap shot. For 145pts it can take down a Harpy or Hive Crone in a single round of shooting quite easily unless they Jink and the Razorwing is not one of the better flyers, I see no problem in being able to do the same in return.

Quick note on one of Wraithbalor's comments, a roll of a 1 is always a failure so there's no automatic reserve rolls.

This is incorrect. A 1 is only a failure on to-hit, to-wound, and saves (and FNP if using new FAQ). Nothing else auto-fails 1's. I.e. if you shoot a Rupture Cannon at the rear of a Rhino, a 1 is a Penetrating hit, not a failure.

Yes firing all 4 missiles in one turn is strong, but it's the same thing that any flier will do to it, for similar pricing. This changes the target priority for fliers when they first get on the board, so that the Crone is the priority rather than the Flyrant. Also remember that if your Crone is on the field to start (to flame some stuff) then the flyer will always get first shot. If not, then just about all flyer v. flyer combat tends to be he who shot first wins.

Royal Node: I like the Overlapping Armor idea.

For the tyrannofex: Good points, he is kinda expensive, especially with a pod. I've only taken him in pods vs. Eldar and Tau, where the AP4 murders things, so the AP3 might not be too powerful. I'd say leave it as is, and we'll playtest a while to see how it goes.

Exocrine: S6 AP2 30" range sounds great, more the way I'd want to run him.

Regarding the Norn Crown: we could always make a dual profile cost (like the Tau codex upgrades) where it's cheaper on an Infantry unit and more expensive on an MC, allowing more flexibility in pointing.

Respawning Gants formation: I doubt we'd ever see large numbers of gants in tournaments, even with a fairly cheap respawn formation, as they would be too many models to play within the time constraints. Something the size of Endless Swarm (or just adding it to the Invasion Swarm) wouldn't be too strong (gants are still not super strong, which is good), and serious tourney players still wouldn't bring it due to model count.

Alright, you both have convinced me that firing all four Tentaclids in one turn isn't going to break the Crone. I'll add that rule in.

Poor Harpy needs a bit of help still, I don't want to make it any cheaper, but it's still not doing quite enough in my opinion. It suffers from being a generalist. Its special rukes make it want to charge, its gun makes it want to be long ranged (and the H Venom is decent at targeting vehicles) but you want it dropping bombs as well. Its an awkward unit.

Make the special rule something that works like vector strike instead of charging, that way the Harpy keeps flying.

Any unit that takes an unsaved wound from a Harpy's Vector Strike gets -5I until its controlling player's next Movement Phase, perhaps?

Or simply by taking the hit, making it by wound makes it far less reliable.

Harpy: Make the initiative penalty part of the bomb profile, rather than him charging. Also make the bombs give assault grenades to anyone who charges them and/or Pinning check at penalty to do same thing plus no overwatch. Or give that/those to its stranglethorn/venom cannon.

I've always used Harpies as attempted Pinning and infantry targeting (the HVC was never really an option to me). If we gave it a rule where units it bombed and/or shot took a penalty to I (probably not 5) and units charging got assault grenades, he becomes an Anti-Infantry support flyer.

JesseS wrote:


The technical answer:

- Invisibility is best dealt with by giving yourself re-rolls to get those 6's, and I've given us a lot more options for Twin-Linked/Preferred Enemy and other re-rolls, in addition the Mawloc's Terror from the Deep can explicitly target Invisible units now. It's also going to be a lot harder to get off with the new Shadow in the Warp.

- 2++ re-rollable is best dealt with by D weapons which I've given us limited access too (Cataclysm and the Rupture Cannon), or just by weight of fire and with out cheaper models all around (and more importantly with making the smaller bugs useful again) we can drown and or tarpit deathstars.

- Grav spam dies pretty quickly to hordes of small critters with low armour saves, and we can pour those into people in spades. Grav Cents are going to hate the new Gargoyles since they only have that 6+ Armour but can choose to strike at Str 4 AP2 and can take huge squads for pretty cheap (or just Toxin-Sac Horms en masse).

The true answer:

Haven't given it much thought. The truly abusive lists are still going to be a bit of a problem but I'm not interested in writing a Codex that joins them. I want Tyranids to be better, so that they aren't relegated to the bottom tier forever, and I believe I've done that (with other peoples help). This Codex can now go toe-to-toe with a competitive (but not abusive) list from any army. I'm not interested in giving Nids any abusive combos of their own (and if someone finds one I made by accident I'm gonna nerf it real quick, haha).

Abusive list are competitive lists, there is no difference. But yeah I get what you mean.

I don't think that's accurate, the changes to Crushing Claws buff a number of other units. Haruspex are now fast enough to engage on their terms, and hit much harder with 4 (5 on the charge) WS5 S8 AP1 attacks with Armourbane, which will chew through most Walkers. Tyrant Guard as well to a smaller degree, and both got cheaper. The Haruspex significantly so. Add in the Wrecker Node formation and I think we've come close to consigning all non-Knights to the scrap-heap. Even Knights I think we can handle on an even basis in my playtesting experience.

The problem is the Trygons, walking Hive Tyrants and the Swarmlord, which are expensive melee units yet don't have good anti-tank.