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I'm just starting a New Astra Millitarum list with a focus on infantry with Leman Russ support. However, I'm having trouble deciding exactly what upgrades to give my units, as where I play the meta is heavily shooting army based- lots of AdMech and Tau. Guard can't compete with these armies in shooting, which is usually its strength.

HQ-Company Command Squad, Vox Caster 5pts, Carapace Armor for Company Commander 5pts, 70pts
Commissar, 25pts

Troops-
A Infantry Squad, Vox Caster 5pts, Autocannon Team 10pts, Meltagun 10 pts 75 pts
B Infantry Squad, Vox Caster 5pts, Meltagun 10pts, 65pts

Veteran Squad, Vox Caster 5 pts, Grenadier Doctrines 15pts, Lascannon Team 20pts 95pts

Heavy Support-
Leman Russ Battle Tank, Heavy Bolter Sponsons 20pts, 170 pts

500 Points

This is supposed to be a sustained engagement list that i'll upgrade with more infantry and veterans, perhaps a couple Basilisks. This list will easily be able to take care of Rangers and Fire Warriors- however, I'm really worried about Onagers with Neutron Lasers (dang those things are nasty) and Crisis Suits. Your advice, internet?

If what you're playing above is a regular infantry squad, your list is illegal as it lacks a platoon command squad.

In all honesty, and I'm sorry to break the bubble,this list will do horribly against rangers and warriors: the early will snipe your commander as soon as they can (which could well be on turn 1), and both unit tipes will gun down your boys before you drop that single pieplate of doom (and rangers could well wreck the russ should they pack the arc rifles). As it is, your list is schizophrenic (you've got assault weapons with very short range of utility-read: 6''- in the same unit as long ranged stationary weapons) and full of ineficiencies,such as the grenadiers doctrine: its purpose is to keep your guys alive a bit more so they can maximize damage, but you've only given them a single heavy weapon weapon constrasting to what should be your cannonfodder, with both a special weapon AND a heavy weapon and a special weapon.

In my opinion you'd do better if you'd.

A) swap the platoon for a veteran squad. Barebones is 140-ish points, so it becomes unwieldy at this points level. You "lose" wounds but get more quality and can get a chimera for the CCS (which ensures more than one round of orders and denies them an utterly easy slay the warlord). which in turn nets you six more shots at reasonable strength. Drop the lascannon and get two plasma guns: that way they sinergize with the humble lasguns' range (and trust me, even if they are weak, you want those extra 8 shots that will hurt infantry but would do crap to the vehicles a lascannon should be targetting).

B) drop the commissar: they do nothing a priest would do and better (read: without a 1 in 3 chance of your lascannon guys getting their braintapes blown off), they do have their uses but with this low body count they don't have place in such a list.

Thanks for your honesty- this is my first Guard list and I have a poor understanding at best of the systems involved. The Autocannon with the Melta was intended to create a squad that was capable of of closing with tanks if the auto cannon died- it was a stupid idea, I admit. As for the illegality of the list, I think it was like midnight last night when I made a few changes. I apparently forgot that infantry squads can't exist outside platoons. Would you recommend that I scrap the melta on my heavy weapon equipped team and instead go with a long range special weapon on my Vets?

Mmmm.... yes. In so far the best Idea I'd have for you would be:

-CCS with chimera (this should be non-negotiable, you ain't an ironhands chaptermaster)

-2x veteran squads, one with plasmas and autocannon (basically you're looking at volume of S7 shots) and another with whatever you fancy (maybe flamers just in case you ever play against assault heavy armies, or your opponent from skitarii brought any variant of sicarans).

An Updated List
HQ-Company Command Squad, Vox Caster 5pts, Carapace Armor for Company Commander 5pts, Medi Pack 15pts, 85pts
Ministroum Priest 25 Points

Troops-

Veteran Squad, Vox Caster 5pts, Grenadier Doctrines 15pts, Plasma Gun x2 30pts, Autocannon Team 10pts, 120 Points

Veteran Squad, Vox Caster 5pts, Grenadier Doctrines 15pts, Plasma Gun 15pts, Flamer 5pts, Points 100 Points

Heavy Support-
Leman Russ Battle Tank, Heavy Bolter Sponsons 20pts, 170 pts

500 Points
Your opinion on the continued existence of the Grenadier Doctrines? Also, should I scrap the Medi- Pack or Priest in favor of a third special weapon for my vet squads? What is your opinion on the Vox-Caster coverage?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmmm.... maybe kill the second plasma squad for a heavy or more flamers. I'm not ignoring you chimera suggestion- that's obviously the best choice with Pulse Rifles on the table. I just don't have access to a Chimera at the moment, and am making do with the models I have.

As it is I the list is fine and it's actually up to your experience wether or not the priest goes (I'd not depart with the medi-kit until your commander gets a ride, you need to keep him alive at all costs) and it will basically boil down on wether or not that guardsman squad with the flamer (which is the one with the most mobility) ends up needing to roll for ld checks often enough. Though it could be useful to anchor team A (dual plasma+autocannon) and avoid them snapfiring just because a couple of their meatsh- er I mean squadmates got shotdown. IF you're going to take out the medi-kit (which would highly beneficial depending on how much s6+ they bring at this level) I'd suggest bringing a flamer to squad A (in case something gets close via deepstrike and you want to do as many wounds as possible) and a meltagun for Squad B (in case you get close to snipe a crisis team).
That or equip the command squad with either a plasma gun (they are BS4, after all) or give them a couple of grenade launchers so as to provide of light-infantry harrasment at a semi-decent range,

Now, this comes from me assuming you're going to play a 4x4 feet table (as this level of points is too small for a standard one).
As it is, I think this list is fairly solid, as long as you duck in cover when playing those pesky skitarii: Squad A would be a fire support plataform, it's plasma guns and the autocannon given you a decent fire output with which threaten most enemy infantry and light armor, while squad B would be, alongside the russ, the unit you use to claim the field. The CCS should remain in a safe spot and close to the Squad A so as to ensure ignores orders/tank hunters orders (all of a sudden that AV11/AV12 doesn't look tough at all).

Now, this list isn't, by a long shot, the best list you'd be able to come up with AM but I think it will be fun to play for both you and your opponent, as it will allow you to make them a bit your dudes while still be able to kick a few skulls.

Apologies I disagree with Lord Kragan entirely.

At 500 points you MUST take advantage of Guards fundemental strength: Mass numbers. Every point you spend on bad upgrades is less men you can field.

Now you have got the basics of how an IG army works, Men backed up by tanks. But you have started to lose your way. A veteran, even with carapace is just as easy to kill as a basic Guardsmen I.E Tau pulse rifles still wound on 2s and Skittari Rangers still ignore your armour.

What you need is a good mass of infantry (with some cheap upgrades) to advance and take objectives, and a Leman Russ to put on the pain.

My suggested list is:

Company Command Squad: Missile Launcher, Regimental Standard.
At 500 points you are not gonna come across much heavy armour so the Missile Launcher will do, also it saves you 5 points from a Lascannon and can still insta kill crisis suits. The flag is an auto include as it keeps your men from running away with rerolls on Ld tests. This squad is nice and cheap and with orders will buff your men nicely.

Platoon 1:
PCS: Heavy Bolter and Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad: Heavy Bolter and Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad: Heavy Bolter and Grenade Launcher
Now many people will disagree with me here. Heavy Bolters are generally considered worse than Autocannons. However, against Tau and Skittari they are amazing as they still wound on 2s but get 1 extra shot. Its up to you if you want autocannons or Heavy bolters, they cost the same.

Veterans: Autocannon and 3x Grenade Launcher
Cheap second troop choice, use as a light vehicle/transport hunter (grenade launchers can fire krak grenades). Also autocannon because of BS4 so having less shots wont hurt you.

Heavy Support:
Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon and Hull Heavy Bolter.
Good all rounder! Will lay waste to all infantry and will insta kill Crisis Suits. Is also pretty good at killing tanks thanks to 2d6 pick the highest on Armour Pen rolls.


With this list you have almost doubled the number of men you can put on the board and also have massively increased your fire output. You will be doing more damage and will be able to soak up losses.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
Apologies I disagree with Lord Kragan entirely.

At 500 points you MUST take advantage of Guards fundemental strength: Mass numbers. Every point you spend on bad upgrades is less men you can field.

Now you have got the basics of how an IG army works, Men backed up by tanks. But you have started to lose your way. A veteran, even with carapace is just as easy to kill as a basic Guardsmen I.E Tau pulse rifles still wound on 2s and Skittari Rangers still ignore your armour.

What you need is a good mass of infantry (with some cheap upgrades) to advance and take objectives, and a Leman Russ to put on the pain.

My suggested list is:

Company Command Squad: Missile Launcher, Regimental Standard.
At 500 points you are not gonna come across much heavy armour so the Missile Launcher will do, also it saves you 5 points from a Lascannon and can still insta kill crisis suits. The flag is an auto include as it keeps your men from running away with rerolls on Ld tests. This squad is nice and cheap and with orders will buff your men nicely.

Platoon 1:
PCS: Heavy Bolter and Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad: Heavy Bolter and Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad: Heavy Bolter and Grenade Launcher
Now many people will disagree with me here. Heavy Bolters are generally considered worse than Autocannons. However, against Tau and Skittari they are amazing as they still wound on 2s but get 1 extra shot. Its up to you if you want autocannons or Heavy bolters, they cost the same.

Veterans: Autocannon and 3x Grenade Launcher
Cheap second troop choice, use as a light vehicle/transport hunter (grenade launchers can fire krak grenades). Also autocannon because of BS4 so having less shots wont hurt you.

Heavy Support:
Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon and Hull Heavy Bolter.
Good all rounder! Will lay waste to all infantry and will insta kill Crisis Suits. Is also pretty good at killing tanks thanks to 2d6 pick the highest on Armour Pen rolls.


With this list you have almost doubled the number of men you can put on the board and also have massively increased your fire output. You will be doing more damage and will be able to soak up losses.

In all honesty, while not a bad list, it will be dreadfull when it has to deal with "tough" units, such as bikers or broadsides (though I agree the missile launcher is a good idea), and you've got no way to deal with 3/2+ saves barring saturation of shots which isn't that pheasible at 500pts (you'd basically need two squads worth of lasguns just to strip off a wound of an XV8) and the leman (which may have issues should the tau player bring multiple units of 1-man/2-men crisis or roll on with a stealth team and their 2+ covers). Also autocannons will be more versatile should you phase several units of light armor (devilfish just pup into mind) and/or want to cause instant death on the enemy warlords (the Alphas and maybe that cadre fireblade/ethereal) while denying FNP rolls for skitarii (which could save a few rangers, never truly underestimate it).
Don't know now, I'd have to playtest this lists, but the good thing is that they aren't exclusive: you'll need in the long run 3 boxes of guardsmen (minimum) and more than one command squad. Whatever you buy you will be able to play both of those lists so pick whatever you fancy and go around trying it: experience is the best help you can find.

Thank both of you immensely. As I have the models for both these lists, I will try both out and see the results.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Vox Casters are, in you opinion, useless then?

Absolutely not, orders give you great bonuses: from 33 to 50 percent more firepower on your basic guys to ignores cover, tank hunters (which, if you go for the grenade launchers/autocannon, may provide a nasty surprise against light armor) and other abilities that will bring you a lot of bonuses. The catch is that your guys, base, get only a 60% chance to get it, but with the re-roll you get so-much more mileage. Now, just give the vox to one of the two squads of regular guardsmen, as you'll generally want to combine it, thus saving you 5 points that may come in handy.

Now, my meta is more prone to more elite armies (marines are quite popular here) so I must say I'm biased towards low AP weapons.