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Its been nearly a year since I was first introduced to tabletop wargaming, and from what I can tell its what made 2016 one of the best years of my life!
The painting, the lore, the home brews, the get together's on weekends. But most importantly, the rich community that makes this hobby so awesome!

Even though I've only been playing for about a year, I started to notice an interesting pattern.
At my local hobby store, a lot of the guys there would usually have something a little bit off about them that would be out of the norm, but I ignore it.

When I tried getting my friends into Warhammer 40k back in high school, (while they were intrigued by the vast grim dark lore that followed the tabletop) most decided to turn away from it.
A lot of them saw the hobby as either too nerdy, too expensive, or just deemed it as childish playing with overpriced figurines on a table rolling dice.

However, those who were willing to join the hobby with me were mostly friends who either have some kind of learning disability, or were really gifted kids who relish in these nerdy kind of things.
But for the most part, our tabletop group had friends with with hyperactivity, aspergers, ADHD/ADD, etc. I understand that with something like aspergers, they usually tend to form deep passions
with things such as a sport, a hobby, a video game, and I think that's where 40k falls in.

What my question is do you guys also notice these patterns?

Yes, I notice it as well. But it's % figure so is prevalent in all groups.

On the one hand, it's a pretty apparent connection in most circles. I imagine it has something to do with the sense of escapism that fantasy worlds afford to individuals with lacking (through one sense or another) social aptitude, especially when such escapes have been frowned upon by more common circles. Tabletop gaming does seem quite a bit like that last bastion of 'nerd' culture that the mainstream has yet to quite penetrate, even if it is becoming more socially acknowledged.

The curious thing about all of that is that these typically are social games. Of course, that itself could be a symptom of the above, providing a common ground for people with such disorders to commune.

Of course, that's just spitballing. It's an affinity that I imagine would be hard for most not to notice, although the real reasoning could be any number of things, and likely a combination of several.

In Aspergers/Autism, one of the great difficulties is social interaction. Wargames gives you fantastic structure for interactions

Yes there is a connection, but its because of the nature of the hobby. The hobby has several aspects that people on the spectrum are drawn too. The ones that I know of:

The collecting/completionist aspect. its the same draw that a lot of computer games have (complete all the quest/get all the achievements)

The Maths. They (sorry, I don't like the term they for those on the spectrum, but cant think of the right phrase) are drawn to the maths because they can see the patterns in it. Its also what draws them to computer programming - there are patterns to it.

The open world of it. They can in dulge themselves and pretend to be in the world through the miniatures, again, same with avatars in computer games.

Also, but less common, is the tactics. This is far less common as its only on a certain part of the spectrum, but they are able to see patterns in the tactics, but the patterns relate to time (in that they see several steps ahead as easily as if we might know which unit we are going to move next, they can see what you should do next turn, and what they will do next turn and what you should do after that. Unfortunately, this can also be very frustrating for them, because what you should do (as they see it) isn't necessarily what you actually do. Those on this part of the spectrum also tend to be VERY good at chess.

So the reason wargaming groups tend to attract those on the spectrum is that the hobby has multiple elements that may attract them.

Yes. And no.

I observe that the rules - and in some cases the "proper" colours, give the game absolutes that some enjoy.

The same applies to many other activities.

Parents are more likely to encourage them towards a hobby rather than a sport?

I'm not sure I've really seen too much autism spectrum behavior in wargaming, but I will admit to seeing pretty much every form of anti-social personality you can imagine.

 Reaver83 wrote:
In Aspergers/Autism, one of the great difficulties is social interaction. Wargames gives you fantastic structure for interactions

This.

As someone with a high-function ASD I enjoy GW's IPs(and, to an extent, historicals) because of their scope, because they have so much to learn about. The fact that the hobby aspect allows me to realise my imagined additions to that IP physically in a way that I can share with other people rather than having them stuck inside my head because of an inability to properly explain them is also appealing.

The biggest appeal though, is that actually playing the game provides a structure that moves socialising from the realm of being mostly awful to the point of being physically painful with occasional bouts of tolerability, to being almost always tolerable and often even enjoyable. A store or gaming club is a ready-made social circle, everyone there has at least one thing in common already, and most importantly it provides a set of boundaries to the interaction with others that is defined and understood - I can anticipate what other people expect from me, and I know the limits of what I can expect from other people. You have no idea how much that reduces the anxiety surrounding social interaction that someone like me, especially those who weren't diganosed until after the social hell-pit of the teens, experiences when dealing with people. I can't "read" people during conversations, I can't intuit moods or unspoken assumptions - in a face-to-face conversation I have no more information to go on than any of you do right now reading these posts. But with wargaming that doesn't matter so much, because most of the interactions with others are going to revolve around the game itself. The structure also seems to help other people deal with the fact I have an ASD - most people simply don't know what to do or say when you tell them and that will end a social interaction even more often than myself making some mistake that angers or offends whoever I'm talking with(I see that "I'm not telepathic you know..." style of joke a lot on sitcoms and standup shows, but I don't think neurotypical people really have any idea how often they expect each other to simply know what the other is thinking or intends and how easily you get angry when someone doesn't). In the context of playing the game though, either the additional transactional element of the interaction(ie they get a game out of me whether or not they think I'm wierd and that's what they wanted when they came to a game club) or the defined nature of it(ie we're both there to play a game first & foremost) seems to allow people to move past the ASD thing more easily.

 Polonius wrote:
I'm not sure I've really seen too much autism spectrum behavior in wargaming, but I will admit to seeing pretty much every form of anti-social personality you can imagine.

My god yes, I have seen some really disturbing people in nerdy hobbies then any other place.

No more than any other walk of life, it's just a stereotype of the hobby.

 JamesY wrote:
No more than any other walk of life, it's just a stereotype of the hobby.

I agree to an extent as a lot of the local groups I've seen have mostly your 'average' type of person (sorry, can't think of a better term!) But then when you see who actually hangs around in a public store, it seems to be (at least for my area) the more stereotypical gamer type.

Perhaps because these are the people commonly seen in stores, rather than the private gaming groups, this is where the perception comes from.

As for the stereotype itself, I am a bit of a believer in the phrase "there's no smoke without fire".

I used to be on the spectrum a while but then I got an amiga.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I used to be on the spectrum a while but then I got an amiga.

That was my first thought as well, I was like, wtf?

In most activities, any kids with any sort of problems are usually seperated off into their own groups and there's no requirement to do that in a hobby setting. Pretty sure that's just what you are seeing.

 Polonius wrote:
I'm not sure I've really seen too much autism spectrum behavior in wargaming, but I will admit to seeing pretty much every form of anti-social personality you can imagine.

People with aspergers often just come across as socially awkward.

The symptoms for aspergers could pretty much be on the poster for wargamers. "Enjoy repetition but have limited interests and are physically and socially awkward? You might just be a wargamer... I mean have Asperger's".

A friend of mine who was employed as a child psychologist told me that collectible miniatures games and Warhammer titles were the most common hobbies of the children he saw. He said it was a great soother to have these collections and organised structures to games.
A lot of people on the spectrum can fixate on certain areas, and the hobby allows this within a safe and creative environment.
CCGs was a close runner up.

 D4V1D0 wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
No more than any other walk of life, it's just a stereotype of the hobby.

I agree to an extent as a lot of the local groups I've seen have mostly your 'average' type of person (sorry, can't think of a better term!) But then when you see who actually hangs around in a public store, it seems to be (at least for my area) the more stereotypical gamer type.

Perhaps because these are the people commonly seen in stores, rather than the private gaming groups, this is where the perception comes from.

As for the stereotype itself, I am a bit of a believer in the phrase "there's no smoke without fire".

I agree that there is no smoke without fire. One thing I've noticed though since becoming a teacher though is just how common spectrum disorders have become, and the wide range of 'types' there are. Obsessively trying to keep a ball from touching the ground doing keep-ups, spending thousands of hours alone practicing on an instrument, for example, in terms of spectrum are no different from spending time painting or reading the lore. It's just the social view of the worth of the activity that changes, rather than the individuals most of the time. People assume gw stores are full of geeks, so that's what they see when they see behaviour that matches that label. They would find the same behaviour traits in a pub on match night (obsessing over minute details, remembering facts from games years past, arguing over who would win in hypothetical situations etc), but because that isn't considered geeky, it isn't noticed as such. Same behaviour, viewed differently.

 JamesY wrote:
Obsessively trying to keep a ball from touching the ground doing keep-ups, spending thousands of hours alone practicing on an instrument, for example, in terms of spectrum are no different from spending time painting or reading the lore. It's just the social view of the worth of the activity that changes, rather than the individuals most of the time

It's also the perceived lack of social development and the idea that wargamers are more likely to be people who are physically awkward and clumsy.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Obsessively trying to keep a ball from touching the ground doing keep-ups, spending thousands of hours alone practicing on an instrument, for example, in terms of spectrum are no different from spending time painting or reading the lore. It's just the social view of the worth of the activity that changes, rather than the individuals most of the time

It's also the perceived lack of social development and the idea that wargamers are more likely to be people who are physically awkward and clumsy.

Yeah that's my point, it's the ideas and perceptions people have. You'll find socially and physically awkward people everywhere, people just notice them more in places they expect to find them, and don't notice them as much elsewhere.

My wife's nephew is on "the spectrum" - and he focuses on sporting statistic trivia. REALLY focuses on it. Can reel off meaningless numbers going back decades with the same alacrity as any gaming nerd discussing D&D player character anecdotes.

But a brother-in-law mirrors this with his focus on railway stuff. From full size steamers down to model railway z-gauge stuff (although HO and 4" are his loves). He can likewise reel off meaningless numbers about smoke belching antiques.

Gaming attracts them (from what I've observed) because of the statistics and patterns, and the details on the models - but it's no more attractive than sports statistics or model railway/trainspotting.

I think a large part of it is to do with the wider community.

For those who aren't great at social interaction (whether due to autism or just plain old shyness - provided there's a difference. I don't know much about such things), this hobby is tremendously welcoming.

Think about how most first get involved - wandering into a store, be it a GW or FLGS.

Now unlike many (most?) shops, these are (in theory) staffed by people who love what they're selling. They're enthusiastic, and want to show it off. So the good ones tend to be quick to build up some kind of rapport with their customers.

Intro games, intro paint - all low level stuff which (again, in the ideal world) shows off the fun of the hobby.

Now if you've got someone artistically inclined anyway, who has found a rare situation where they're made to feel welcome (social anxiety right here!), that's a serious lure.

And better? In my experience, the kids that frequent GW stores tend to be the school social outcasts. They know what it's like to be excluded, so you see very little (if any) bullying in a GW crowd - making it about the least socially toxic environment a kid can get into. All very welcoming, all to be encouraged.

 chromedog wrote:
Gaming attracts them (from what I've observed) because of the statistics and patterns, and the details on the models - but it's no more attractive than sports statistics or model railway/trainspotting.

I'm not sure anyone would really argue with you. Sports statistics nuts and model railyway/trainspotting nuts are also considered, err, nuts.

I have been part of wargaming communities off and on since the late 80s. The game attracts all sorts of types, some of whom could be described as overly-detail oriented or having a remarkable ability to recall facts.

But it's hazardous to assume someone is autistic. Mental health is complex and nuanced, and diagnoses are best left to professionals. It's more important to realize gamers are part of a community and, as such, you need to care for your fellow community members.

There was something very punk rock about 40k during the late 80s. Most of the people I knew who played the game were also into bands like the Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, the Clash, the Sex Pistols, the Ramones, etc. They also had a wide variety of artistic interests which included music, the visual arts, writing, and a lot of other stuff. There were a lot of D&D converts who came to the game because it gave them a wider set of outlets for their skills.

The game was a part of this larger scene. As you might expect, within a large group of young creative types, not everyone got along with their parents. Some of it was the legitimate teenage angst that comes in the late teens / early 20s, but there were also these people who were really struggling. They did not live at home, either sleeping in cars or on other people's couches. They were often into substance abuse, of one form or another. They had ambitions, but expressed in a non-traditional form - wanting to start a band and go on tour, move to some distant location, write a great novel, etc.

Incredibly talented and imaginative people, but they faced some deep, personal challenge that was hard to put into words. For them, the community was shelter from the demands of school and family life in a predominantly white, upper-middle-class suburban existence.

Thinking about a guy named Greg, who I was sort-of friends with. Played guitar in a band, played 40k with a vigor rarely seen, always carried a sketchbook filled with pencil drawings of comic book characters. He could recite rules from the rulebook with ease, knew every army list, could recall specific rolls from previous games, could gauge complex probability without the aid of a calculator, etc. His armies were well painted, beyond what most people could do at the time. Conversations with him were almost always animated and lively, except when he was in a mood, where you could never get anything out of him.

Greg was very smart and should have been in an engineering program at some college, but had some extreme issues. His Dad was in the military and put a lot of pressure on him to sign up. Most of what I saw him do seemed to me aimed at making himself ineligible for service. He was kicked out of high school for carrying a butterfly knife to class and threatening a teacher. I saw his band perform a few times, but the performance could be more aptly described as watching people drink massive amounts of alcohol while playing instruments.

After graduating high school, I left for college (along with a lot of other people) and that scene broke up. Greg eventually got into trouble with the law in another state. He had been homeless for a time and got involved in petty crimes with a relative. He was on trial for some form of robbery, but committed suicide before receiving a judgement.

Greg was someone I would have described as being autistic, at some level. His sister and I connected a few years after it all happened, and she shed some light on Greg's actual situation. He had been abused as a child, physically and sexually, and this lead to some extreme adjustment issues. As a kid, there had been some outbursts of violence, where other kids got hurt, and this was part of why his family moved to our neighborhood. He had seen a counsellor at school, and they made some kind of progress together, which broke down after he reached high school. There were other parts of his situation she went on about, which mostly revolved around the idea he was always in pain.

I had a hard time with the idea that I knew the guy, but not well enough, and that there was nothing I could do about it. Greg was not an isolated case, there were several other people I thought were highly intelligent and creative who found bad ends in their early 20s. Not all of them made it to their 30s. When I think back about it, the response from other members in the community was to chalk their behavior up to being young, being punk, drugs are awesome, having some minor mental health issue, or simply saying that's what artists do.

Anyways, community has become something important to me, professionally and personally. I like the idea that a gaming club can be a refuge for people who are not quite perfectly adjusted in the world, and give them a chance to change the course of their future. I worry about labels like ADHD / Autism / the spectrum, because they are convenient and not always coming from a medical professional. I know that some people do things like memorize a set of rules as an escape from a world they find hard to adjust to, and it can look like something else when you encounter it. What matters is understanding the people around you and learning to appreciate them for who they are, regardless of other factors, and taking an interest in their success in life.

I hope this was not too much of a downer.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I have been part of wargaming communities off and on since the late 80s. The game attracts all sorts of types, some of whom could be described as overly-detail oriented or having a remarkable ability to recall facts.

But it's hazardous to assume someone is autistic. Mental health is complex and nuanced, and diagnoses are best left to professionals. It's more important to realize gamers are part of a community and, as such, you need to care for your fellow community members.

There was something very punk rock about 40k during the late 80s. Most of the people I knew who played the game were also into bands like the Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, the Clash, the Sex Pistols, the Ramones, etc. They also had a wide variety of artistic interests which included music, the visual arts, writing, and a lot of other stuff. There were a lot of D&D converts who came to the game because it gave them a wider set of outlets for their skills.

The game was a part of this larger scene. As you might expect, within a large group of young creative types, not everyone got along with their parents. Some of it was the legitimate teenage angst that comes in the late teens / early 20s, but there were also these people who were really struggling. They did not live at home, either sleeping in cars or on other people's couches. They were often into substance abuse, of one form or another. They had ambitions, but expressed in a non-traditional form - wanting to start a band and go on tour, move to some distant location, write a great novel, etc.

Incredibly talented and imaginative people, but they faced some deep, personal challenge that was hard to put into words. For them, the community was shelter from the demands of school and family life in a predominantly white, upper-middle-class suburban existence.

Thinking about a guy named Greg, who I was sort-of friends with. Played guitar in a band, played 40k with a vigor rarely seen, always carried a sketchbook filled with pencil drawings of comic book characters. He could recite rules from the rulebook with ease, knew every army list, could recall specific rolls from previous games, could gauge complex probability without the aid of a calculator, etc. His armies were well painted, beyond what most people could do at the time. Conversations with him were almost always animated and lively, except when he was in a mood, where you could never get anything out of him.

Greg was very smart and should have been in an engineering program at some college, but had some extreme issues. His Dad was in the military and put a lot of pressure on him to sign up. Most of what I saw him do seemed to me aimed at making himself ineligible for service. He was kicked out of high school for carrying a butterfly knife to class and threatening a teacher. I saw his band perform a few times, but the performance could be more aptly described as watching people drink massive amounts of alcohol while playing instruments.

After graduating high school, I left for college (along with a lot of other people) and that scene broke up. Greg eventually got into trouble with the law in another state. He had been homeless for a time and got involved in petty crimes with a relative. He was on trial for some form of robbery, but committed suicide before receiving a judgement.

Greg was someone I would have described as being autistic, at some level. His sister and I connected a few years after it all happened, and she shed some light on Greg's actual situation. He had been abused as a child, physically and sexually, and this lead to some extreme adjustment issues. As a kid, there had been some outbursts of violence, where other kids got hurt, and this was part of why his family moved to our neighborhood. He had seen a counsellor at school, and they made some kind of progress together, which broke down after he reached high school. There were other parts of his situation she went on about, which mostly revolved around the idea he was always in pain.

I had a hard time with the idea that I knew the guy, but not well enough, and that there was nothing I could do about it. Greg was not an isolated case, there were several other people I thought were highly intelligent and creative who found bad ends in their early 20s. Not all of them made it to their 30s. When I think back about it, the response from other members in the community was to chalk their behavior up to being young, being punk, drugs are awesome, having some minor mental health issue, or simply saying that's what artists do.

Anyways, community has become something important to me, professionally and personally. I like the idea that a gaming club can be a refuge for people who are not quite perfectly adjusted in the world, and give them a chance to change the course of their future. I worry about labels like ADHD / Autism / the spectrum, because they are convenient and not always coming from a medical professional. I know that some people do things like memorize a set of rules as an escape from a world they find hard to adjust to, and it can look like something else when you encounter it. What matters is understanding the people around you and learning to appreciate them for who they are, regardless of other factors, and taking an interest in their success in life.

I hope this was not too much of a downer.

The one single thing that makes this post "a downer" is that you don't fully understand what "the spectrum" means and this misunderstanding creates this "labelling" perspective. As a very strange case person (I'm not "naturally" on a spectrum, but for the last 25 years I had different psychiatric disorders periodically "induced" farmacologically by anti-epileptic drugs), let me explain this in perhaps an enlightening way:

A spectrum is, well, a spectrum - science world going from 0-1 Autism diagnosis to Aspergers spectrum awarness was a huge step, but it is still "too cautious". EVERYONE can be placed on "a spectrum" for each and every common psychiatric disorder (think of it as dimensions and scales). But that is offset by a large "middle ground" of acceptible "norm" (a multi-dimensional figure/boundary). Only people with enough "shift on a spectrum" to noticeably fall on the edge or outside this "acceptible norm" are considered having Aspergers, but this is simplification. IRL Aspergers and other spectrum disorders are just like being "to tall" or "too short" - it is relative. Artistic talent, creativity, ambition have absolutely nothing to do with it - expression of those virtues might be influenced by being on a spectrum, but they do not come directly from or shield from being on a spectrum... Another thing is that "being on a spectrum" is not really static - not in many cases at least. It can develop stronger or weaker over large periods of time. In some cases of aspergers people can learn to read people emotions over time and even become better at reading everyones emotional motivations than "normal" people themselves (they can indeed find enough patterns in human behaviour to achieve that), but they will still be socially awkward in most cases, because they won't feel those emotions themselves in a manner understandable by outside world untrained to "read" spectrum people.

TL;DR: everyone is mental, some people just not enough to be diagnosed

I think I was shown role-playing and war-games by my Mum was to do with Spectrum-like issues I have.
She worked for most of her career in special-needs schools, and has a mentally handicapped sister, so knows what to look for.
I was pointed at a hobby shop when I was 12, and got Final Fantasy books and similar before that. Wargaming came when 40k was released, through White Dwarf and Dungeon mags. I didn't really get into any groups though, until a local in the RPGA came knocking.

As for the wider community, I see a lot of people who show traits thought to be 'on the spectrum'. It's a horrid term, and covers so many traits that it is almost worthless. I expect almost everyone can be see as being on it, if you look hard enough.

 JamesY wrote:
No more than any other walk of life, it's just a stereotype of the hobby.

I dont agree. The Stereotyping is not based on a made up perception.

In my experience, with being in the hobby very recently (5-6months) I have NEVER come across more socially awkward people in my life than in the tabletop hobby. That includes my 20 years of video gaming.

Coming from a hobby with "video game nerds" then going into the TT hobby and interacting with "tabletop nerds" made me realize the awkwardness, smelliness, nerdiness, oddest, etc. etc. of the video game nerds, were then turned up to 11 with the tabletop nerds. Like....bad.

Nothing wrong with it. Now, I don't know how many have diagnosed "issues", but what I have seen is pretty much on point with the LARP videos (FIRE BALL!!!!) from years back. Again not knocking the playerbase I have been around. Just stating that the biggest dorks in my life have been found in this hobby. Which...I guess includes me now too.

 JamesY wrote:
No more than any other walk of life, it's just a stereotype of the hobby.

If every game store I've ever visited didn't have "That Guy" hanging out by the register, I'd agree with you.

Vaxx wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
No more than any other walk of life, it's just a stereotype of the hobby.

I dont agree. The Stereotyping is not based on a made up perception.

In my experience, with being in the hobby very recently (5-6months) I have NEVER come across more socially awkward people in my life than in the tabletop hobby. That includes my 20 years of video gaming.

It isn't made up, but it's a largely outdated perception. I've been in the hobby for 25yrs, and I've met a similar array of people that I've met in every other area of life. I'm not saying that their aren't any, or that in some stores you won't find an imbalance, I'm saying that spectrum disorders and the wargaming hobby are not intrinsically linked.

kronk wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
No more than any other walk of life, it's just a stereotype of the hobby.

If every game store I've ever visited didn't have "That Guy" hanging out by the register, I'd agree with you.

Ha ha, you'll find the same guy in the locker room bsing about the trials for west ham he had, or the place on the under 21's pro team he turned down...

Socially awkward? Yes? Autistic? No, it seems people label "oh he's an autist he likes Minecraft" too quickly.

 techsoldaten wrote:
But it's hazardous to assume someone is autistic. Mental health is complex and nuanced, and diagnoses are best left to professionals. It's more important to realize gamers are part of a community and, as such, you need to care for your fellow community members..

Thank you for your post

We all know the sterotypical wargamer is an awkward, shy, and overweight fellow - but from meeting hundreds of players through this hobby I've never noticed individuals with Autism/Aspergers. Some guys are loud and outspoken, a few have weird habits, even one or two with some bad BO - but none suffering from actual conditions.

My stepbrother has aspergers. 28, lives at home, has his first 40/hr a week job that isn't with a family member type employment. Not a fan of wargaming, but he does enjoy Hearthstone - to collect the cards, grind mindlessly, and spend money on collecting type games. He's absolutely terrible at the game itself and hasn't comprehended any tactics/guides/help whatsoever. He oddly likes researching weird topics, knowing a ridiculous amount about cars while driving a beater, and I agree with the escapism enjoyment. From my experience - Wargamers are quite a bit different living with someone with aspergers. Some might have it - but again, we are too quick to classify someone as one.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
My god yes, I have seen some really disturbing people in nerdy hobbies then any other place.

I swore you posted previously that you had aspergers in a thread awhile back. It might have been a different post - but it was "Hotsauce" and had a My Pony avatar. Didnt you have a few threads on social issues?

 JamesY wrote:

Ha ha, you'll find the same guy in the locker room bsing about the trials for west ham he had, or the place on the under 21's pro team he turned down...

I don't doubt it!