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 Vermis wrote:

Do you have any armies for it? Can you run demos?

Yes and sort of. I have tried to get games of Epic set up for years but so I haven't been successful. I will probably start going to the GTs when I move northward later in the year.

 TheKbob wrote:


Have you tried Firestorm Armada? I want to, but just curious if this scratches the BFG itch.

Epic 40k seems like that's the game I want to play, large battles but without a massive price tag on 28mm scale Epic.

I picked up FSA in the V1 days (2010), where it was a simple game lacking any real depth or any distinction between factions, not to mention the quality of the models.

I recently got back into now that V2 is out, and its a far better game. Its still pretty simple and straightforward compared to BFG, but has a lot more depth and unique play style between faction now than before. What I like about the game compared to BFG and 40k is the alternating activation system, which keeps you and your opponent more engaged, as well as using certain tactics/list building strategies to play to that advantage.

I may be a little biased, as I'm working to get on the beta team for FSA, and I post regularly on the Spartan boards. But yes, spaceships blowing up other spaceships helps fill the void of BFG. Admittedly, BFG models will probably always be my favourite.

I don't think the rules of Dread Fleet were based on BFG except inasmuch as all GW rules are based on fairly simple D6 mechanisms.

 Palindrome wrote:
Dropzone Commander looks like it will be an excellent alternative in terms of scale, popularity and quality.

You horrible person. I'm eyeing it now, because the UCM jives with me.

I was going to start up Dropzone Commander. They are expensive just like GW. Not GW expensive, but expensive non the less.

I guess it's phycological. Paying $30 for one thing or paying $60 for 5 things.

At least with DzC you don't need as many Minis as GW. Thing is, they are so nice, you want to have so many like GW.

That's just an example of doing things the right way though.

Requiring a player to purchase a lot of models at a high price in order for them to be able to actively participate in the game at the accepted game size is likely to make the player feel manipulated, railroaded, violated, insert your own term here.

Charging a high price for models, but not requiring the purchase of a lot of models to participate, and stimulating the desire in players once they've started, either by your conduct as a company or by the quality of your product (in many cases both) so that the player feels content that while they're paying a lot for them, they're happy to do so because (here comes that V word again) they feel they're getting value from the purchase, is, to my mind, the only way to run a business. GW management clearly aren't of the same philosophy.

Davor wrote:
I was going to start up Dropzone Commander. They are expensive just like GW. Not GW expensive, but expensive non the less.

Not really, my 1500 point UCM list cost me £150, that would be expensive for a skirmish game or a historical game but its not that bad in the scheme of things.

Totally anecdotal but I stuck my nose in the battle bunker in the city the other day and... Wow.

Four years ago I was a regular there and there where days when there where 30 tables being used at any one time and the 8 seats at the painting table where something people had to show up early to get. They used to have 3 staff selling stuff, painting things in store and running demos.

The other day I saw 1 game being played and 3 people at the painting table. There would have been 10 people in the store including me and my friend. We spent maybe 20 minutes there and in that time we picked up and looked at more than a few things but where never approached by the one employee there so we simply left without buying anything.

All that, in addition to the lovely custom tables being swapped out for realm of battle with only scenery made from GW kits, was genuinely depressing to see.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Totally anecdotal but I stuck my nose in the battle bunker in the city the other day and... Wow.

Four years ago I was a regular there and there where days when there where 30 tables being used at any one time and the 8 seats at the painting table where something people had to show up early to get. They used to have 3 staff selling stuff, painting things in store and running demos.

The other day I saw 1 game being played and 3 people at the painting table. There would have been 10 people in the store including me and my friend. We spent maybe 20 minutes there and in that time we picked up and looked at more than a few things but where never approached by the one employee there so we simply left without buying anything.

All that, in addition to the lovely custom tables being swapped out for realm of battle with only scenery made from GW kits, was genuinely depressing to see.

I dont know what a battle bunker is, but at the GW in the city its a similar situation.

Its still very well presented and so forth, but its pretty empty and the boards are now very lackluster. Back in 07 when I was finally able to buy my first army the place was packed. There where 3 staff members who talked and played games, heaps of games happening and painting tutorials. The manager (nathan or baldy as many refer to him as in NZ) was still a dick back then, still is now, but with the other staff at least you could avoid him.

Mid 2013 I went to GW as I was passing buy. One guy (nathan) about 7 kids who just got dropped off by a mother at the painting table and about 4 guys playing some tiny game on some tiny board with unpainted models etc. Just looked sad and somewhat dead.

Like yours anecdotal, but there is a lot missing there that used to make people excited to go. Meh, the GW only policy would never make me go back regardless, but I can only imagine the few stores in the wellington region (2?) being open for a little while longer at most.

Won't we get the info later on this week?

Yes. They must publish by the end of July.

Hollismason wrote:
Won't we get the info later on this week?

Tuesday is the bet.

I'm saying at least a 30% decline in sales figures.

Hollismason wrote:
I'm saying at least a 30% decline in sales figures.

Seems high. I'm going with 20% loss in net profit.


Do you really think GW is "going under"?
I don't think they are going away soon. However, I think they need to pull their head out of the proverbial... I wonder how much FW sales are carrying them right now. That's all I and several players from my old group are buying, other than codecies.

5-15% seems the likely range*. We've got a base of down 10% for H1, it's just a question of what effect you think the Knight + 7th Ed are going to have on H2 on a YoY basis to arrive at a full year prediction.

*This fence is comfy......

EDIT: for example, to reach the 20% down full year in the above post, H2 would have to be down either ~27% or ~33% (I can't remember which half is slightly bigger, and it's not important enough to look up for this example!)

I think this report won't be as bad as some people think. Knights and 7th ed were probably a big enough boost for this year. That said, SM dex, Knights and a new edition are all their big guns which leaves nothing much left for next year when they'll also have nothing left to cut. It's the long run that they're going to suffer from the amount of players they lost from "cash grab edition."

 MWHistorian wrote:
I think this report won't be as bad as some people think. Knights and 7th ed were probably a big enough boost for this year. That said, SM dex, Knights and a new edition are all their big guns which leaves nothing much left for next year when they'll also have nothing left to cut. It's the long run that they're going to suffer from the amount of players they lost from "cash grab edition."

Cue Fntasy 9th edition at Christmas 2014 to see if that helps the half year report.

If it doesn't then 40K 8th will be coming next June.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I think this report won't be as bad as some people think. Knights and 7th ed were probably a big enough boost for this year. That said, SM dex, Knights and a new edition are all their big guns which leaves nothing much left for next year when they'll also have nothing left to cut. It's the long run that they're going to suffer from the amount of players they lost from "cash grab edition."

I agree. I assume that new editions of rules and codexes sell fastest at the beginning. If they sell evenly throughout their life it would be a different thing.

Conversely it will hardly be good news if the report is merely average given the number of major products launched during the financial year.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I think this report won't be as bad as some people think. Knights and 7th ed were probably a big enough boost for this year. That said, SM dex, Knights and a new edition are all their big guns which leaves nothing much left for next year when they'll also have nothing left to cut. It's the long run that they're going to suffer from the amount of players they lost from "cash grab edition."

Cue Fntasy 9th edition at Christmas 2014 to see if that helps the half year report.

If it doesn't then 40K 8th will be coming next June.

Wouldn't doubt it, but that's a good point. I think that sales might be down overall, but still a profit due to IK + 7th. Like MWHistorian said though, that's all they've got. So it'll be 9th edition Fantasy later this year, and then what? They can only pad the numbers for so long. Think of it like a chess game: They are running out of moves to make, and when they run out it's checkmate.

If 40k 8th edition comes out within two years again, and isn't a total revamp a la 2nd -> 3rd, it's going to be the final nail in their coffin I think. Even GW wouldn't be that stupid. Maybe if they gave it away for free they could pull a stunt like that.

Hollismason wrote:
I'm saying at least a 30% decline in sales figures.

Too high.

1st half had a 10% decline in sales and 30% less profits with the release of SM.
2nd half had the release of 7th ed, so I'm putting my money in a continuation of the 10% decline in sales.

WHFB is dead and buried, unless 9th edition is a return to the 6th edition type of rules, any new edition of the game won't sell anything like the amount that GW needs to prop up their numbers, and frankly at this point I don't think that anyone that is left in GWs rules design team has any of the competence needed to write a good rules set for any game.

PhantomViper wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I'm saying at least a 30% decline in sales figures.

Too high.

1st half had a 10% decline in sales and 30% less profits with the release of SM.
2nd half had the release of 7th ed, so I'm putting my money in a continuation of the 10% decline in sales.

WHFB is dead and buried, unless 9th edition is a return to the 6th edition type of rules, any new edition of the game won't sell anything like the amount that GW needs to prop up their numbers, and frankly at this point I don't think that anyone that is left in GWs rules design team has any of the competence needed to write a good rules set for any game.

They could always try to have a new version of WHFB that uses the LOTR/Hobbit rules (which I hear are actually pretty good), just knowing GW they would use it to invalidate every existing army and end up killing it anyways, because you know they would use that as an excuse to redo everything.

WayneTheGame wrote:

They could always try to have a new version of WHFB that uses the LOTR/Hobbit rules (which I hear are actually pretty good), just knowing GW they would use it to invalidate every existing army and end up killing it anyways, because you know they would use that as an excuse to redo everything.

I keep hearing this as well, but if the rules are that good, then why doesn't anyone actually played those games after the original trilogy movies ended?

 MWHistorian wrote:
I think this report won't be as bad as some people think. Knights and 7th ed were probably a big enough boost for this year. That said, SM dex, Knights and a new edition are all their big guns which leaves nothing much left for next year when they'll also have nothing left to cut. It's the long run that they're going to suffer from the amount of players they lost from "cash grab edition."

I thought it was said for the 1st half of sales were down which was Including the new Space Marine sales. So SM didn't help at all in the 1st half.

Now that being said who is GW catering too? Is it the kids with rich parents or the veterans? I mean an edition change will not make much money for GW from kids with rich parents because they are just getting into 40K, but it would seem the edition change was aimed at 40K veterans since they are the ones who want to be kept updated and therefore buy the new stuff.

So this puzzles me, who is 40K actually catering too. If the kids, why an edition change? They are usually just getting into the hobby so will be buying no matter what. Veterans have already bought everything or most things, so an edition change would be aimed at them to buy more. Could that be another downfall for GW? They don't know who they are catering to anymore?

Davor wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I think this report won't be as bad as some people think. Knights and 7th ed were probably a big enough boost for this year. That said, SM dex, Knights and a new edition are all their big guns which leaves nothing much left for next year when they'll also have nothing left to cut. It's the long run that they're going to suffer from the amount of players they lost from "cash grab edition."

I thought it was said for the 1st half of sales were down which was Including the new Space Marine sales. So SM didn't help at all in the 1st half.

Now that being said who is GW catering too? Is it the kids with rich parents or the veterans? I mean an edition change will not make much money for GW from kids with rich parents because they are just getting into 40K, but it would seem the edition change was aimed at 40K veterans since they are the ones who want to be kept updated and therefore buy the new stuff.

So this puzzles me, who is 40K actually catering too. If the kids, why an edition change? They are usually just getting into the hobby so will be buying no matter what. Veterans have already bought everything or most things, so an edition change would be aimed at them to buy more. Could that be another downfall for GW? They don't know who they are catering to anymore?

I think that they are catering to "anyone who will buy our stuff", honestly. Kids with rich parents aren't going to shell out an insane amount of money for a game, no matter what; maybe a box here and there, but not anything crazy. The veterans won't buy as much usually because they already have large armies, and might get ticked off if entire swathes of their force is invalidated or removed with a new edition.

PhantomViper wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

They could always try to have a new version of WHFB that uses the LOTR/Hobbit rules (which I hear are actually pretty good), just knowing GW they would use it to invalidate every existing army and end up killing it anyways, because you know they would use that as an excuse to redo everything.

I keep hearing this as well, but if the rules are that good, then why doesn't anyone actually played those games after the original trilogy movies ended?

Because GW basically stopped supporting it and cut off the deal with the advertising company which had brought in so many players.

They also did away with the things I liked about it (all rules for all models in one book, simple army building rules etc.) and which, I think, made it such a simple and effective ruleset. Being able to buy the Return of the King set and getting a load of Orcs and Men, the full colour rulebook containing the rules for the whole model line and having the freedom to build your army your way (with the only real limit being you couldn't have over a third of your models armed with bows) was great. Turning it into Fantasy-Lite with the the rules for different races spread over several books with no actual change in any of their rules and the introduction of the warband system which makes building an army much more confusing was not.

They also massively raised the prices of troop boxes whilst cutting the number of models you got in half.

When the price of your models, makes a 10% drop in sales equal a 30% drop in profits. Any drop in sales is catastrophic. Gw needs to equal or better the last quarter sales, just to tread water.

You guys should probably go look at this thread in the Dakka Discussions forum:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/607499.page

Kirby stepping down letter.

Barfolomew wrote:
You guys should probably go look at this thread in the Dakka Discussions forum:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/607499.page

Kirby stepping down letter.

Wow...just...wow.
If that's true, then things are very bad.

I don't buy any GW rules and avoid buying their minis but seeing as I really enjoy the 40k and Fantasy universe I find it hard to move even though I'm not a fan of Games Workshop

Wow... That letter. It's like hearing the plane captain over the intercom saying "Those idiots back there said we'd need X gallons of fuel, but I was willing to call their bluff."

I just want to see the positive spin someone will be putting on that if it's true. I really have trouble seeing it as true because it looks like a parody. Poe's law though I guess.