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Did the launch of mk4 make any difference to the player base or community? It looks to have been a complete flop as far as I can tell.

It certainly didn't revitalize the community here in Poland, but I wouldn't call it a flop. A few players appeared or returned (also with new mk4 armies) but also a few left because of the transition to mk4 and too many models being unplayable.

All in all we have a stable but pretty bad attendance at local events here in the capital. Last weekend there were 8 people playing in a WM tournament, which is similar to the last few years. For comparison, a Warhammer Fantasy Battles 6th edition tournament on the same day gathered 44 players... So, yeah.

Our FLGS group never cared, we didn't like the rules changes(no facing, no back strikes, movement changes etc..) in MK IV so we are still playing MKIII friendly games at 50 points as standard, with no theme lists. we have a regular group of between 8 and 12 players on any given game night who have at least one army to work with.

I think the core problem is past the actual launch of the edition, PP hasn't been aggressive with marketing MKIV outside of their own current community/customerbase.

Far as I'm aware they still lack a proper local rep system (which IMO is essential for pretty much every scifi/fantasy game out there which isn't GW because GW has their own dedicated shops and staff and market leader weight); they've not pushed themselves into the influencer market in a heavy way so that every month/week there's a boatload of causal marketing.

In a way I feel like right now MKIV is a steady the boat kind of deal. Which makes some sense as they've been reworking how they release their entire model range.

But yeah I feel like its a missed trick and there should have been way more push for marketing from them.

 Overread wrote:
I think the core problem is past the actual launch of the edition, PP hasn't been aggressive with marketing MKIV outside of their own current community/customerbase.

This. PP has done almost no advertising outside of existing WM/H players, many of whom are pretty annoyed at the way Mk4 has been rolled out, the split of Legacy vs prime, some of the rules changes for things that were not broken in the first place etc.

Also

1) No work has been done by PP to rebuild relationships with stores and distro. Most stores were burnt by PP in the Mk3 and the whole "mystery boxes" sagas and have no desire to put PP products on their shelves when they can fill it with other products.
2) PP is only really currently selling Mk4 products in very expensive £130+ army boxes which makes it very hard for people to impulse buy or to sell the new game to people.
3) The reputation of PP and of the WM/H community is still mud among the wider wargaming communities if indeed those people even know of the game or company anymore. That coupled with 1 & 2 means that its very very hard to get anyone new into the game.

I think its too early to say its a failure. But its not the surge back to form/prominence that PP were hoping for and its largely their own fault. In a recent podcast one of the PP designers effectively admitted that while they have staff producing/packing products, their game and model design teams were so tiny people were wearing 3-4 hats each. I think the only things that can "save" PP is a huge injection of cash by an external investor. They have such a great IP, but the company is now a shell of a shell of its former self, stripped of talent and peddling a product very few people actually want to buy at the price point they are offering it at.

Sadly I think they were hoping Monster Apoc would save them but now the firm they partnered with for the boardgame version is hitting bad times and might well be that Monster Apoc at best delivers only if backers spend considerably more; and at worst might not even ship properly.

If they've lost their in-house art team they really should be leaning so hard on youtubers and such. Sending them free product; paying for painting tutorials and such. Pushing their content out however they can get it out to get more notice.


I also agree, PP needs cash, but I think more than that what they need are upper managers with a sense of where they are taking the firm and effective tools to get there. Right now PP kinda feels like they've got a few ideas but now power/drive to push or head anywhere outside of treading water; which isn't bad in itself save that their current position isn't all that healthy.

My LGS has zero PP products on the shelf, with a bunch of older stuff left locked up in storage, only accessible if you ask for it.
There are no events. No game days. Not even their paints are on the shelves any longer.
My LGS is HUGE and carries nearly everything available.
WM/H used to have a dedicated section, games twice a week and tournaments every month. Now? Nothing.
From here, MK4 did absolutely nothing. Except perhaps drive what little was left of the customer base away completely.

Sunno wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think the core problem is past the actual launch of the edition, PP hasn't been aggressive with marketing MKIV outside of their own current community/customerbase.

This. PP has done almost no advertising outside of existing WM/H players, many of whom are pretty annoyed at the way Mk4 has been rolled out, the split of Legacy vs prime, some of the rules changes for things that were not broken in the first place etc.

Also

1) No work has been done by PP to rebuild relationships with stores and distro. Most stores were burnt by PP in the Mk3 and the whole "mystery boxes" sagas and have no desire to put PP products on their shelves when they can fill it with other products.
2) PP is only really currently selling Mk4 products in very expensive £130+ army boxes which makes it very hard for people to impulse buy or to sell the new game to people.
3) The reputation of PP and of the WM/H community is still mud among the wider wargaming communities if indeed those people even know of the game or company anymore. That coupled with 1 & 2 means that its very very hard to get anyone new into the game.

I think its too early to say its a failure. But its not the surge back to form/prominence that PP were hoping for and its largely their own fault. In a recent podcast one of the PP designers effectively admitted that while they have staff producing/packing products, their game and model design teams were so tiny people were wearing 3-4 hats each. I think the only things that can "save" PP is a huge injection of cash by an external investor. They have such a great IP, but the company is now a shell of a shell of its former self, stripped of talent and peddling a product very few people actually want to buy at the price point they are offering it at.

I never understood the bad reputation for the community thing, everyone I met was great and very friendly. My impression was super casual players didn't like the tightness of the rules and players wanting that for competitive play. And people unable to understand page 5 was tongue in cheek banter and set the mood for the games play style. They got upset and I know on some forums even today you have guys obsessed with gak talking the game and it's players. Years after it died.

I think right now everyone's kind of hoping PP dies and the warmachine brand is sold to a better company to revive. Its a very 2000s ip and is out of style now but give it a decade and it will roll back 8n like 80s and 90s is now. WWF themed steam punk skate boarding robots are my idea and no one else can use it! Until then it's going to drag on as a zombie company trying to cling to life by selling 3d printed junk to whales. But even those whales will move on at some point.

It's a shame we never got the original computer game. And the one on steam is broken and can't be played at all due to missing files.

I think the community issue was more that some communities became hyper-competitive environments.

That's not bad in itself, but hyper competitive environments can be very difficult to get into for newbies and casual players because the competitive players will just win more times than not as they will oftne take things more seriously and often (not always) be better players.

There is some of the whole "this is because of Page 5", however I feel that that is a bit of a red-herring argument as all page 5 said was "play well and don't be a git"; however some did use it to try and trump up "play well" as "beat seals"




The issue really came around when MKIII hit and PP went through a series of bad choices and mistakes that tanked casual level support. So the game had a dwindling population and what was remaining were high skill high competitive players. Which in turn, as noted earlier, is a bad environment for fostering new blood. So the problem snowballed.

Couple to things like no local reps any more and such and you've a game that relies on a solid, but niche core and, over time, just bled out players.







Bad reptuation was also at the shipping end. Many stores had issues getting hold of any stock. Furthermore when PP started rapidly selling off stock (this is more a USA/Canada market thing) from their own warehouse this tanked the value of their own product. Local stores couldn't compete with keen players getting vastly better offers direct from PP with the grab-bags. Once in a very long while is fine, but this happened enough and at the same time as PP selling less well in general; that it did impact stores selling their stock.

So stores, on two fronts, didn't have a good time stocking PP products. Which when you, again, couple to a game on a big downward swing of popularity; means many stores just don't want to bother.



Also lets face it, the market is bigger than it was and more loaded with game systems. When PP started there was a bit of a bubble of not much else out there being done seriously because GW had dominated for so long. So PP had a much easier time growing; in todays' market there's a lot more competition going on. Not just in the niche itself but in the market in general.

So you've got to bring your A game to marketing, community building, game design, events etc....Heck just look over at Dropfleet and Dropzone; two games under one firm that have not risen to holding a big market share and yet both games are basically sitting as the only current big-name games in their genres.

Dropfleet has Zero active competition outside of garage style one-man-bands selling fleets for Billion Suns; meanwhile Dropzone is much the same.

But you've got do more than just have a product. Again marketing, social outreach; community building; events; advertising etc.... all come into play.

Yo7 wrote:
Did the launch of mk4 make any difference to the player base or community? It looks to have been a complete flop as far as I can tell.

In some ways I feel mk4 is what mk3 should have been. Is it enough? I don't think so, at least yet.

Pp was the mover and shaker in the industry, but that was 15 years ago. A lot of their talentvis away. Going from novels to doing hengehold-via-twitter shows where they ate. They've not learned. Unlike gw, Theyve not evolved.

No ones interested here. But I'll wait and see

 Overread wrote:
Sadly I think they were hoping Monster Apoc would save them but now the firm they partnered with for the boardgame version is hitting bad times and might well be that Monster Apoc at best delivers only if backers spend considerably more; and at worst might not even ship properly.

If they've lost their in-house art team they really should be leaning so hard on youtubers and such. Sending them free product; paying for painting tutorials and such. Pushing their content out however they can get it out to get more notice.


I also agree, PP needs cash, but I think more than that what they need are upper managers with a sense of where they are taking the firm and effective tools to get there. Right now PP kinda feels like they've got a few ideas but now power/drive to push or head anywhere outside of treading water; which isn't bad in itself save that their current position isn't all that healthy.

Mythic has burned them so hard on the board game Kickstarter. So many people were looking forward to that but unfortunately PP picked a lemon to partner with for it. I’ll be surprised if it ever sees the light of day.

 Overread wrote:

Also lets face it, the market is bigger than it was and more loaded with game systems. When PP started there was a bit of a bubble of not much else out there being done seriously because GW had dominated for so long. So PP had a much easier time growing; in todays' market there's a lot more competition going on. Not just in the niche itself but in the market in general.

So you've got to bring your A game to marketing, community building, game design, events etc....Heck just look over at Dropfleet and Dropzone; two games under one firm that have not risen to holding a big market share and yet both games are basically sitting as the only current big-name games in their genres.

Dropfleet has Zero active competition outside of garage style one-man-bands selling fleets for Billion Suns; meanwhile Dropzone is much the same.

But you've got do more than just have a product. Again marketing, social outreach; community building; events; advertising etc.... all come into play.

I'm not sure the market is bigger. Board games are doing better than then but it's a totally different audience. There's way more things fighting for the teenage market now and they often override wargaming. Its harder to get little Timmy to care about model kits when Minecraft and star wars logo sets exist,

There's more attention on alt GW games but how many are even competing in the same space? I wouldn't compare Frostgrave to warmachine for example. Age of sigmar seems to be the biggest hurdle in the way now. Theres no need for a steam punk fantasy game when GW Provide it in their eco system.

Of course local meta matters more than global so maybe its different for you. I would be curious what games you think are big now and back then. Warmachine used to carry stores the way the way tcgs do. I don't think any thing but gw products do that now. Its mostly entry fees and food paying for stores around me. More cafe less game store. Which is fine, but its a very different vibe to the stores of old.

TBH I'm not sure it's been clear to many that mk4 actually "launched". They kind of did an extended public beta while they rolled out initial product/preview battlegrouos, which then became the games formal "launch" with the full initial retail product offering. The line between "beta" and "release" isn't really clear and came with no fanfare, so to most the game really launched at some point late last year with not much in the way of product or rules to support it, rather than a couple months ago when the core army boxes for the launch factions went on sale.

The implications of this on marketing and hype cycles, etc really need not be explained in great detail, other than to say that PP probably missed its mark and window to capitalize on the hype and buzz generated for the mk4 launch when they announced it last year ny not having a fully realized and finalized product ready to go on a specific release/launch date.

Yo7 wrote:

 Overread wrote:

Also lets face it, the market is bigger than it was and more loaded with game systems. When PP started there was a bit of a bubble of not much else out there being done seriously because GW had dominated for so long. So PP had a much easier time growing; in todays' market there's a lot more competition going on. Not just in the niche itself but in the market in general.

So you've got to bring your A game to marketing, community building, game design, events etc....Heck just look over at Dropfleet and Dropzone; two games under one firm that have not risen to holding a big market share and yet both games are basically sitting as the only current big-name games in their genres.

Dropfleet has Zero active competition outside of garage style one-man-bands selling fleets for Billion Suns; meanwhile Dropzone is much the same.

But you've got do more than just have a product. Again marketing, social outreach; community building; events; advertising etc.... all come into play.

I'm not sure the market is bigger. Board games are doing better than then but it's a totally different audience. There's way more things fighting for the teenage market now and they often override wargaming. Its harder to get little Timmy to care about model kits when Minecraft and star wars logo sets exist,

There's more attention on alt GW games but how many are even competing in the same space? I wouldn't compare Frostgrave to warmachine for example. Age of sigmar seems to be the biggest hurdle in the way now. Theres no need for a steam punk fantasy game when GW Provide it in their eco system.

Of course local meta matters more than global so maybe its different for you. I would be curious what games you think are big now and back then. Warmachine used to carry stores the way the way tcgs do. I don't think any thing but gw products do that now. Its mostly entry fees and food paying for stores around me. More cafe less game store. Which is fine, but its a very different vibe to the stores of old.

I think when it comes to carrying stores the last 20years has seen the relative cost for running a store go up and up. The result is stores have had to focus more and more on higher profit lines. I figure that's why MTG has taken over so many; along with things like food and such. It's not just wargaming, its everything and its also a big reason why a lot of traditional highstreets are starting to get very empty or seeing stores that change hands fairly often. Even big named brand stores are struggling on the highstreet.
Alongside stores getting more expensive, the internet made running an online shop easier; yes more competition but at least you don't have to pay a fortune in rent and rates for a highstreet shop.

So I do agree, wargames cannot easily carry a store with sales like they used too. I don't think that's a fault of wargames as a market, its just a reflection of the sorry state of highstreets today and the real world costs of running a shop in an environment that is honestly highly hostile to actually running a shop.




That said back when PP was around there were far fewer middle-weight wargames. My impression is that today's market has a lot more and with GW's market so large they can only just keep up with production; that tells me that either everyone is buying like crazy; or we've got actual expansion and growth. That the number of customers overall is greater and that's giving room for more firms to establish themselves. It doesn't mean its easy, but I think the fact that instead of GW and PP; we instead have dozens of other model markers and a thriving 3D printing market with alternate model lines - all that tells me that the market has indeed grown.
That doesn't mean its become the biggest thing; its still a very niche hobby; but its distinctly bigger than it was. And yeah there's more competition; video games a huge threat to free time for kids; but we've also got adults introducing their own kids to wargames; we've got legions of youtubers introducing people to painting and collecting; we've got video games that interest and draw people into the wargaming scene (yes a lot of that is GW, GW are still the biggest, by far, draw into the wargame market as a whole - at least for fantasy and sci-fi)

chaos0xomega wrote:
TBH I'm not sure it's been clear to many that mk4 actually "launched". They kind of did an extended public beta while they rolled out initial product/preview battlegrouos, which then became the games formal "launch" with the full initial retail product offering. The line between "beta" and "release" isn't really clear and came with no fanfare, so to most the game really launched at some point late last year with not much in the way of product or rules to support it, rather than a couple months ago when the core army boxes for the launch factions went on sale.

The implications of this on marketing and hype cycles, etc really need not be explained in great detail, other than to say that PP probably missed its mark and window to capitalize on the hype and buzz generated for the mk4 launch when they announced it last year ny not having a fully realized and finalized product ready to go on a specific release/launch date.

Big part of their issue with the too early announcement and overlong beta was one of their play test groups getting bitter and breaking their NDA and starting to tell people about it before they were ready.

 AduroT wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
TBH I'm not sure it's been clear to many that mk4 actually "launched". They kind of did an extended public beta while they rolled out initial product/preview battlegrouos, which then became the games formal "launch" with the full initial retail product offering. The line between "beta" and "release" isn't really clear and came with no fanfare, so to most the game really launched at some point late last year with not much in the way of product or rules to support it, rather than a couple months ago when the core army boxes for the launch factions went on sale.

The implications of this on marketing and hype cycles, etc really need not be explained in great detail, other than to say that PP probably missed its mark and window to capitalize on the hype and buzz generated for the mk4 launch when they announced it last year ny not having a fully realized and finalized product ready to go on a specific release/launch date.

Big part of their issue with the too early announcement and overlong beta was one of their play test groups getting bitter and breaking their NDA and starting to tell people about it before they were ready.

Leaks will always happen.

Beta tests divide player bases badly though. Half want to jump in early and half when it's finished and out the door. You cut your player base in half and some wanting the final release never play as they find something else to play instead. If you're all in on digital micro managing rules any way just call the beta the launch and say rules may change as players get their hands on it. Effectively the same thing but you don't get people waiting for release. Its the 4th edition, you should know what works and doesn't by now.

The main issue is just that it still doesn't feel like mk4 has actually released. The Legacy armies are all well and good, but the new armies don't have most of their product 6 months after releasing all their rules.

What's compounding that is the SR pushing for 100 point games that are easy for the Legacy armies to support, but the new armies really only can by buying multiple starters and spamming their limited options. All the advantages of scaling the game down and making it more accessible have been lost by not having the new armies ready to lead and instead leaning back on Legacy collections.

Most of the local crew is interested, but giving it a year or so to work things out. We've got a few waiting for Dusk and Khymera specifically but whether its really worth pushing to make a regular thing again will largely come down to how well PP can stabilize its production and start getting these army boxes out on time.

It's also really odd that they chose to finally merge Hordes and Warmachine (which honestly should have happened back in M2 or M3) they then chose to release all the Warmachine factions first.

So basically MKIV is a huge deadzone for their entire Hordes market. I know it was never quite as big as Warmachine, but it was still a good chunk of players.

I know there's a few new armies being proposed sneaking in here and there, but again the lack of big marketing noise about it is a huge issue. They lost those hordes players who saw MKIV during its launch because they also saw that in the roadmap; they were a long long way off. And that was before you factor in the inevitable shuffling and delays that happen with multi-year roadmaps.

They should have come out of the gate with MKIV guns blazing with 1 force from each well rounded at the very least; perhaps 2 per game well rounded.

Esp as its all 3D printed now, so there's no complicated moulds to pay for nor process.

There are a few playing it at a couple locations here in Phoenix. At least, I see people posting meet-ups on Facebook rather regularly at 2 of the larger places in the metropolis.

I haven't gone to them as I'm too busy with Battletech at a closer location at the same time.

Just saw today someone wrote in a Warmachine Night on our June event calendar. No idea who or what their plan/s for it might be though.

Haven't really been hanging out at LGSes to see, but personally it only solidified my dropping the game, honestly. I don't like the new aesthetic (less Steampunky, more sci-fi); I don't like that a large chunk of my collection will probably be unusable in the "Prime" format or whatever it's called; I don't like some of the rules changes that I saw in the early preview. Generally, nothing in it that tempted me to "get back into it," as it were.

Been going through my minis collection and selecting some for "deep storage" and putting those in Feldherr card boxes/foam, and shoving into the garage. Pretty much all my Warmachine/Hordes stuff is in there currently, with a few exceptions for some unknown "I could use this in..." situations, though frankly those are probably gonna go in, too. I can't bring myself to part with any of my painted stuff, and the last time I tried to sell off any of my NIB stuff at local swap-meets and the like, there was zero interest (and that was still in Mk III so I doubt there's any increased interest now).

Edit: So I guess you could say it did "make a difference" for me: it got rid of any lingering waffling about getting back in.

 LunarSol wrote:
The main issue is just that it still doesn't feel like mk4 has actually released. The Legacy armies are all well and good, but the new armies don't have most of their product 6 months after releasing all their rules.

What's compounding that is the SR pushing for 100 point games that are easy for the Legacy armies to support, but the new armies really only can by buying multiple starters and spamming their limited options. All the advantages of scaling the game down and making it more accessible have been lost by not having the new armies ready to lead and instead leaning back on Legacy collections.

Most of the local crew is interested, but giving it a year or so to work things out. We've got a few waiting for Dusk and Khymera specifically but whether its really worth pushing to make a regular thing again will largely come down to how well PP can stabilize its production and start getting these army boxes out on time.

Big part of that is that PP caved to its existing player base demands instead of holding to its guns. Originally PP intended 50pts to be the competitive format for the first year so as to enable ease of entry for new players. The existing community is myopic and self centered and demanded 100 pts for it's sameness to the established mk3 75 point standard, which most people outside the core community otherwise consider too large.

To be honest, I play only a few times a year at the FLGS and do my monthly pick-ups, but I do follow a number of game websites, youtube channels, social media, etc. And until I just saw this posting I didn't realize that
Warmachine 4.0 had even dropped. Trust me, I am fully aware of 10th Editon 40k is about to come out and Star Wars Shatterpoint is being pushed like crazy. So locally it was once a hub of Privatteer press
games and now it seems to be almost zero. Whatever they did to kill their fanbase, they did a good job.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
The main issue is just that it still doesn't feel like mk4 has actually released. The Legacy armies are all well and good, but the new armies don't have most of their product 6 months after releasing all their rules.

What's compounding that is the SR pushing for 100 point games that are easy for the Legacy armies to support, but the new armies really only can by buying multiple starters and spamming their limited options. All the advantages of scaling the game down and making it more accessible have been lost by not having the new armies ready to lead and instead leaning back on Legacy collections.

Most of the local crew is interested, but giving it a year or so to work things out. We've got a few waiting for Dusk and Khymera specifically but whether its really worth pushing to make a regular thing again will largely come down to how well PP can stabilize its production and start getting these army boxes out on time.

Big part of that is that PP caved to its existing player base demands instead of holding to its guns. Originally PP intended 50pts to be the competitive format for the first year so as to enable ease of entry for new players. The existing community is myopic and self centered and demanded 100 pts for it's sameness to the established mk3 75 point standard, which most people outside the core community otherwise consider too large.

This is unfortunate. How did it transpire? Play testers and established event organizers complained or something?

The problem is PP isn't in "get new people" mode. They are still trapped in "please our current customers" mode because they 100% need them.

Warcaster didn't take off in a big way and has been even quieter with news than Warmachine has (a sad thing, but Warcaster was impressive in coming out during Covid without many issues and yet it just never got any traction)

Whilst the PP side of Monster Apoc is good; the recent disaster is going to tarnish that with a huge slew of issues IF it fails to deliver (or delivers only with a sharp price spike for customers)

So PP 100% needs their current Warmachine market on their side.


That would also fit with their £150 bracket new sets. That is not a welcome pack; that's a pack for existing customers.



Which I guess is part of the root of one of many issues PP has right now. MKIV isn't being marketed heavily and its not being pushed for new customers or long-lost customers.
The rules are built for them ;but the marketing and price points are built for the existing fanbase.



Thing is PP could easily have had 100 point games for big events and then scaled back to another game mode for 50 or such. GW has done this in spades and its worked great for them. Meanwhile PP surely must realise that almost every other game that became large only did so through lots of smaller products nad marketing getting new customer on board.








Honestly I don't know if PP just don't realise their issues or if they have such a shortfall of finances that they just can't envision making any other approach work for their bottom line without taking too much risk.

Mk3s 30 quid starters were perfect entry points but no one could get them

 Overread wrote:

Warcaster didn't take off in a big way and has been even quieter with news than Warmachine has (a sad thing, but Warcaster was impressive in coming out during Covid without many issues and yet it just never got any traction)

Which is a shame because it’s a pretty great game. Very dynamic play and quite different from Warmachine/Warhammer.

 Genoside07 wrote:
. Whatever they did to kill their fanbase, they did a good job.

It wasn't one thing. It was death of a thousand cuts, missteps, poor decisions and denials.

I was a massive WM/H and PP fanboi. I loved the game and the models. It was always the company and some elements of the community that were the issue. And upon reflection, it was always that way, even back in the days when WM/H was at its zenith.

The fall has been a long time coming.

One can be a fan of the models, and the game system/universe without liking the company or where they are currently taking the game. i feel the same about PP/WM/H as i do about GW and 40K. i hate everything about where the game is at/is going, the change in mechanics and aesthetics for PP specifically so i do what i did with 40K. freeze it where it was good and build a player community around that.

Our FLGS is a very lucky place. we have some players who play multiple days during the week and we have an all day game day every Saturday on top of that. we have a couple dozen regular and semi-regular players who play just about everything. including over a dozen players for circa 5th ed 40K and about 10 (many with more than 1 army/faction) who still actively play WM/H MK III

Without an active and positive community i think any game system will die no matter how good it is.

 AduroT wrote:

 Overread wrote:

Warcaster didn't take off in a big way and has been even quieter with news than Warmachine has (a sad thing, but Warcaster was impressive in coming out during Covid without many issues and yet it just never got any traction)

Which is a shame because it’s a pretty great game. Very dynamic play and quite different from Warmachine/Warhammer.

Honestly I'm shocked they didn't port some of the ideas into Warmachine. The biggest problem skirmish games have is having niche models that never see table time as you make the armies bigger. Warcasters living sideboard during games is a fantastic way to allow you to build an army that includes niche and situational models that might only see the table now and then, without crippling your army. That it also allows you to bring dead units back to the table to use again also opens up a whole avenue of options and sacrificial tactics that regular wargames, again, often outright shun (because you often win on kills).

I thought it was a very smart system that included a lot of great ideas and its a huge shame it hasn't taken off. Personally I think its stuck as PP doesn't want to market nor sell metal models any more but they've not put that game onto the 3D print production system. So they just aren't doing anything with it - which coupled to PP's very quiet marketing means its deadin the water.