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So here are two sample list for an upcoming tournament I am kicking around. Please help me figure out which would be a better all comers list-

List A
Abaddon with 5 man terminator squad (1 accursed weapon, 3 fists, 1 chain fist- 5 combo weapons)
2 *5 man Legionaires (fist/plasma pistol, 3 bolsters, 1 heavy bolter)- both units are the same
Master of Possession with 10 man Possessed squad
Warpsmith with Havocs (1 plasma gun, 2 las-cannons, 2 auto- cannons)
Hellbrute (plasma cannon and fist/flamer)
4 man Obliterator squad
2 Venomcrawlers

List B
Vashtoor
2 x Master of Possessions with a 10 man possessed squad each
3 x 10 man cultists
3x 2 man obliterators
3x venomcrawlers

Both have a small amount of points left over for an enhancement and marks have not been decided. But this is what I am working with.

Thanks for your help.

So 70 people have looked at this post and not one person can help me? Lame

40k list making is gotten to the point where its so nuanced that unless you play that army and have direct experience in that army, you can't make any comments.

Also when anyone makes comments 90% of the time they are rejected because its not what you want to hear.

If you are going to a tournament, we assume you've played this list in practice and feel that it already works?

I think the meta list for CSM is still the same. 3 rhinos, maybe with Legionaries instead of chosen and 3 chaos lords. I could be wrong.

Here's my questions: VC over Forgefiends?, I'm okay seeing a MoP with Possessed (once) I think its good. I'm not convinced that a warpsmith makes VC strong enough to warrant fielding it, and I feel the same about havocs they just don't do it often enough.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
40k list making is gotten to the point where its so nuanced that unless you play that army and have direct experience in that army, you can't make any comments.

Also when anyone makes comments 90% of the time they are rejected because its not what you want to hear.

If you are going to a tournament, we assume you've played this list in practice and feel that it already works?

I think the meta list for CSM is still the same. 3 rhinos, maybe with Legionaries instead of chosen and 3 chaos lords. I could be wrong.

Here's my questions: VC over Forgefiends?, I'm okay seeing a MoP with Possessed (once) I think its good. I'm not convinced that a warpsmith makes VC strong enough to warrant fielding it, and I feel the same about havocs they just don't do it often enough.

First off, thank you for lending some feedback. As for themes, I do not have any of that. I essentially have what has been outlined as these are the two lists I can run which offer an all comers style of play since there will be 62 total people entering the tournament. Below are some notes to give you a general idea of how I was planning use each.

List A- Abaddon and terminators in reserve and deep strike where needed to take on the most threatening thing. Mop/Possessed up the board with their killer move to shred any MEQ/TEQ who get in their way. Legionaries to baby sit back line objectives. Warpsmith with havocs parked with the Helbrute to blast away. Oblits deepstrike in to remove any priority targets. VC scoot up the board to challenge objectives with their speed and hitting power for objective holding units.

List B- cultist are there for purely objectives, naturally. Vashtoor and 3 Venom Crawlers race of the board and get rid of all they can while assisting with objective outside of deployment zone. Oblits deepstrike and soften up priority targets. Mop and possessed do what they do to MeQ/Teq.

Lets say you face my Deathguard list.

I'm running 3 x rhinos with 10 PM, fully kitted out, 3 foul blight spawn and 3 biologist purifiers. The rest of my list is vehicle based anti-tank, PBC, Predators, a couple nurglings for missions and a bloat drone for back field shenanagins.

If I see your first list, I'll mortor your havocs, and wait for the oblits and possessed to arrive. I dont see anything that'll force crack open my rhino's except oblits. I am assuming lots of terrain as is required these days. This is why I think forgefiends are good, decent movement, strong firepower and tough enough to surive if well posititioned.

Once I deal with Oblits and possessed... with whatever is left on my side after the alpha strike, I'll crawl all over the board and control everything.

Your second list is scarier. more oblits, two alpha strike deep strikers, but you are still relying on 8 inch charges with rerolls. Its risky.

And in either case I don't see anything that has fights first (remember fights first trumps charges).

Now that I think of how I'd go against your lists, I'm realizing the 2nd list is a stronger list. Do you have at least a single Forge Fiend? Its such strong firepower, I think you should have one.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Lets say you face my Deathguard list.

I'm running 3 x rhinos with 10 PM, fully kitted out, 3 foul blight spawn and 3 biologist purifiers. The rest of my list is vehicle based anti-tank, PBC, Predators, a couple nurglings for missions and a bloat drone for back field shenanagins.

If I see your first list, I'll mortor your havocs, and wait for the oblits and possessed to arrive. I dont see anything that'll force crack open my rhino's except oblits. I am assuming lots of terrain as is required these days. This is why I think forgefiends are good, decent movement, strong firepower and tough enough to surive if well posititioned.

Once I deal with Oblits and possessed... with whatever is left on my side after the alpha strike, I'll crawl all over the board and control everything.

Your second list is scarier. more oblits, two alpha strike deep strikers, but you are still relying on 8 inch charges with rerolls. Its risky.

And in either case I don't see anything that has fights first (remember fights first trumps charges).

Now that I think of how I'd go against your lists, I'm realizing the 2nd list is a stronger list. Do you have at least a single Forge Fiend? Its such strong firepower, I think you should have one.

Awesome, thanks for the input. I do not have a Forgefiend, but can certainly get one. What should I lose, Venomcrawler and A Cultist Unit?

I don't think the Warpsmith being attached to the Havocs adds a lot of value. They would be better off by themselves next to a venomcrawler and enjoying the benefits of lone operative.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I don't think the Warpsmith being attached to the Havocs adds a lot of value. They would be better off by themselves next to a venomcrawler and enjoying the benefits of lone operative.

Thanks. Issue with that is, the speed at which the Warpsmith can move. I am actually going to go with list 2 which doesn’t have a Warpsmith. I just got a Forgefiend and am dropping a cultist unit and a venomcrawler. I may drop a MoP and add a Warpsmith the chill for the Forgefiend as a line operative.

I think MOP attached to Possessed is not bad. Not sure if I would run Possessed without him. 9" charge from reserves is a no go in a tournament setting.

Warpsmith can keep up with a forgefiend via advancing with no loss in efficiency.

List 2 is shaping up. You probably won't drop Vashtoor for any reason but I'd replace him with a 2nd Forgefiend


.... Do you have any predators? They are pretty effiicient too.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
I think MOP attached to Possessed is not bad. Not sure if I would run Possessed without him. 9" charge from reserves is a no go in a tournament setting.

Warpsmith can keep up with a forgefiend via advancing with no loss in efficiency.

List 2 is shaping up. You probably won't drop Vashtoor for any reason but I'd replace him with a 2nd Forgefiend


.... Do you have any predators? They are pretty efficient too.

Really appreciate the feedback.

Tough decision between keeping the 2 MoPs or having 1 and a Warpsmith.

Vashtoor will be staying in the list. I am determined to make him work. Just bought the 1 Forgefiend yesterday and do not have any predators.

I guess the final decision comes down to
The extra MoP or Warpsmith… decisions, decisions

MOP or dump the possessed

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
MOP or dump the possessed

Thank you!