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Going into this year, this show was my main point of excitement for TV in 2024. Looking Forward to it!
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/05/15 18:54:28
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
I did catch up on season 1, and I do like the whole War of the Roses vibe of the show. And really, I like how well the show depicted the breakdown in relationships that form the central conflict of the series. None of the characters are a clear 'right side' even in one side comes off as more sympathetic/less selfishly you did all that gak to yourself dumbnutz compared to the other.
In that regard it's a huge improvement over Game of Thrones, which so clearly had 'right' characters and 'wrong' characters. Even the characters I see as selfish dicknutz who made their own beds and I want to see them lose have a lot sympathy points for not really being the instigators of the conflict playing out and having some legitimate grievances motivating their actions. All while the issue of succession, the crown, and family troubles prevents them from airing those problems out and really resolving the slow growth of bad blood.
I'm eager to see the war play out. They've really captured the sense of tragedy in the show. The level of 'it didn't have to be this way' and 'this is how your parents feth you over without you ever knowing it' is palpable on a lot of levels.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2024/05/15 20:57:25
Decent table setting episode, though a bit boring at times.
Spoiler:
Not sure how I feel about the Alicent/Cole FWB situation. Its a needless addition and won’t even matter soon, once Cole takes the field. Pretty sure it wasn’t in the book. Makes the Greens look like even bigger hypocrites.
The Blood and Cheese scene wasn’t as brutal as the book. Not a fan of that change, I think. It was so much more horrible in the book and in this series it looks like two bumbling idiots killing the wrong kid instead of a premeditated act of terror/vengeance.
Liked the intro of Alyn of Hull. A good example of show, don’t tell.
Also liked how there is clearly divisions in both parties.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
I can't say I'm familiar with the book, but as much as I like season 1 for how it did a great job building the conflict, at no point did either of them come off as anything but raging hypocrites.
I think it a marvel season 1 managed to make those character's even remotely sympathetic, whether it lasts through season 2 or not.
Spoiler:
It doesn't help that Aegon, while not overtly malicious thus far, is not remotely fit to be king. A lifetime of his sister being the heir apparently clearly left him with no education in ruling and no anticipation of the role.
Which really just goes to show how the Greens are lying in pressing his claim and that Aegon's claim is really Otto Hightower's claim. That stuff of course happens all the time in history, but it doesn't earn the Green's much in the way of sympathy points that their contender is sitting where he clearly isn't fit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/17 04:01:29
Quite a bit of in-setting recap conversations. But I think that’s understandable and welcome to bring the casual viewer up to speed. However, I’d just recapped for myself with a re-watch of S1.
Some proper brutal scenes as well.
Spoiler:
Hightowers seem set to learn the folly of forcing someone unwilling to be King.
There is a certain madness to Aegon showing, but I still have sympathy with him. Despite being King, he himself hasn’t really done a great deal wrong.
The murder of his son was proper brutal though. I really didn’t expect the two goons to carry it off.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/17 13:25:45
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I did like the tapestry telling the tale of House Targaryen + key S1 moments. Not as good as the GoT intro, but an improvement over the first season.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Very nice first episode. Did drag a bit with the recapping, but thats fine.
I didn't recognize Jaceryes at first. Then I thought they had swapped actors but I think he just grew very long hair.
I think this is the overall intention of the show and the book it is based on.
Fire and Blood is written like an "in-universe" book. An official account of what happened, mixed in with some in-character POV accounts, but it is all written after the fact by the survivors.
The show I think is what actually happened, and the book is what was written about what "actually happened". Edited by those with agendas.
So in reality the Greens were clear usurpers who simply had some convenient positioning and politicking to make their attempt work-ish. In the histories that were written down later their villainy was partly scrubbed away making it more ambiguous. Hence why Aegon II is remembered as the rightful king in the end, even though the truth is that neither he nor his sister really ended up ruling.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Shadow Walker wrote: I am surpised how undefended royal chambers are. You would expect, expecially in a time of war, there will be guards posted, and ones patrolling.
Cole is keeping it sparse to allow him to get it on with alicent easier
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
nels1031 wrote: Decent table setting episode, though a bit boring at times.
Spoiler:
Not sure how I feel about the Alicent/Cole FWB situation. Its a needless addition and won’t even matter soon, once Cole takes the field. Pretty sure it wasn’t in the book. Makes the Greens look like even bigger hypocrites.
The Blood and Cheese scene wasn’t as brutal as the book. Not a fan of that change, I think. It was so much more horrible in the book and in this series it looks like two bumbling idiots killing the wrong kid instead of a premeditated act of terror/vengeance.
Spoiler:
For Alicent and Cole, I don't think it is a terrible addition. Yes, it makes them look like hypocrites. I think that is the point of its addition. Cole thinks he is a paragon of chivalry who was wronged by the evil queen. In reality he's a spoiled brat who didn't get his way and has been throwing a tantrum ever since.
Spoiler:
Regarding Blood and Cheese. Going back to my idea that this is a reality(show) vs what was remembered(book), I think this covers the difference. History remembers a dramatic scene with the queen negotiating for which son gets murdered and the assassins pulling a dramatic uno reverse. Its poetic, almost too poetic to be real... Especially for a couple of brutish thugs.
In reality, they just kill him and run away. Anti-climactic and not anywhere near the good story of the written history. But then I think GRRM might be saying that sometimes the poetic scene remembered in history isn't the actual truth. While I agree that it is disappointing to not see it play out like in the book, I think this is a very in character thing for George to do.
Also, the dramatic scene from the book simply gains sympathy for the Green faction. So it would make sense for the history writers to make up this scene to gain some sympathy after the fact.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/17 16:02:54
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Shadow Walker wrote: I am surpised how undefended royal chambers are. You would expect, expecially in a time of war, there will be guards posted, and ones patrolling.
Cole is keeping it sparse to allow him to get it on with alicent easier
It crossed my mind but it would be only justifable around Alicent's chambers. Yet they are nowhere (except the king's guard in a throne room), which would be extremely unlikely in a real world, especially around the queen and her royal babies, the future of the royal house.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/06/17 16:06:08
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I think they are overconfident.
They are really only concerned about the Black's dragons, which will be seen coming from miles away. The nearby lords are all loyal to the Greens. So there is little concern over someone sneaking into the Royal chambers.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
They are really only concerned about the Black's dragons, which will be seen coming from miles away. The nearby lords are all loyal to the Greens. So there is little concern over someone sneaking into the Royal chambers.
If by overconfident you mean idiots then yes, they are. BTW was it like that in the book or is it purely from the TV show?
The show dragged a little bit with some recappery. I thought it was interesting that the thugs, knowing killing Aemon wasn't going to be a thing, switched targets on the fly. Also that scene was brutal enough knowing what's happening from the sounds. I don't need the book version.
Cole annoyed me season 1 and still annoys me. Petulant little whiner. The stuff at the wall was interesting. Interesting that the original dragons wouldn't cross the wall (which makes me wonder why the other ones did later). Also interesting that the tradition of 1/10th of a household going to the wall once a generation is something that's obviously fallen aside by GoT. Also nothern grey beards? Yes please to march south to bolster the river lords.
I'm ready for stuff to start happening.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
They are really only concerned about the Black's dragons, which will be seen coming from miles away. The nearby lords are all loyal to the Greens. So there is little concern over someone sneaking into the Royal chambers.
If by overconfident you mean idiots then yes, they are. BTW was it like that in the book or is it purely from the TV show?
Sort of.
They were overconfident, though both sides could be accused of that. But it is a little more difficult to parse, again since the book is written as a collection of accounts written after the fact. Its basically an In-universe history book, not a novel. And importantly this book was written by people who were sympathetic to the Greens, not the Blacks.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I think the Greens will always come off as the least sympathetic side. Not necessarily the characters all across.
Aegon is sympathetic because Aegon is a kid trying to be something he's not pushed on by others who know he doesn't want it. His sister/wife and children are basically innocents sucked into the conflict.
Aemond is sympathetic, because while he's done some gak, it's easy to draw a line from him to Cole and his mother. Their toxicity toward his sister poisoned Aemond, is the root cause of how he lost his eye, and sparked most of what is happening.
Even Otto Hightower I think doesn't come off too bad. A villain yes. A usurper, yes. But he's doing what powerful men do in his position which is villainous but so typical it doesn't engender much negativity.
Allicent and Cole though are both stupid, bitter little whiners, who mostly made themselves miserable and are set to not only ruin their own lives, but the lives of innocent children and a whole kingdom. Especially Allicent, who seems to live a magical world where she is nature's perfect victim who could do no wrong even though she's screwing her children over in the name of protecting her children and has been doing it their whole lives.
So feth them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/18 00:13:42
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I honestly think that the biggest surprise with the whole storyline is that Aemond doesn't make his own power play himself. Or its a rare bit of restraint and adding an interesting character trait to him on GRRMs behalf.
Aemond is absolutely primed to be a double crosser who makes his own bid for power in the chaos. He clearly thinks of himself as a better choice to be king over his brother, and even outright says as much in season 1, and actually has the power to do it. He is charismatic, has the best dragon, and the best skills out of everybody with the Greens. He could easily betray his brother and everybody else by letting them get annihilated and forming his own faction/seizing control of everybody else outright.
But of course this never happens. He remains loyal to his brother to the end. Which isn't a bad thing. it actually is an interesting twist to his character. And almost an out of character thing for GRRM to do. Obviously over competent underling not betraying his leader is such low hanging fruit I am surprised GRRM didn't bite it.
Honestly with how things were going in Season 1, if I didn't know ahead of time what was going to happen, I would have not been surprised if someone had Aegon murdered so they could replace him with Aemond.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I certainly find him compelling. There's some stuff going on with Aemond, but the 'oh gak' reaction he had at the end of season 1 I think shows us who he really is under all the bitterness and sense of superiority.
In another time, Aemond could have been a hero of his house, even if he was never a ruler.
He's similar to Daemon in that way imo. They both complex figures with a great capacity for violence and cruelty, but under it all they're really just the brothers of kings, who wanted some respect, some recognition, and to feel like being the second place son didn't mean they didn't matter.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
It is. He is certainly the most likable of the Greens.
Another possible alternate timeline is the one where he and Daemon are super good friends and he joins the Blacks because of it. Thats the timeline where the Greens get curb stomped and the Dance is more like a stumble with only a few rolling heads.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/18 01:39:57
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Having discussions elsewhere about blood and cheese, someone brought up that perhaps Allicent makes up being present at the incident, along with embellishments, to cover up the "Cole mining" that was going on at the time.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/06/19 15:53:37
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I do agree though that the way the murder is presented as other people describe it is way more viscerally brutal. Like, I'd think they toned it down on purpose, just because it might be too cruel even for a franchise that has the damn Red Wedding in it.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I don't buy that. They could have still done the psychological torture element, which is what everybody was hoping to see, and still censored the decapitation which is what might have actually been a problem.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I like the idea that the book version is Alicent really just covering up that she was banging the dude that was supposed to be protecting her daughter.
It's a tale that grew in the telling. In reality (the show) they were just two dudes looking to get paid and earn some favors. They aren't presented as particularly insane or depraved. Even killing the kid makes sense from that angle as they aren't getting close to the big guy an don't wanna come back empty handed.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Yeah. If we are thinking about a realistic scenario, if two thugs are tasked with assassinating someone, they aren't going to do some dramatic "choose which of your sons die" thing if the opportunity arises. They'll just kill one, or just kill everybody who sees them.
Now if Daemon had snuck in with them, then I could see a scene like the book alleges play out. He would be in control and as he has personal stakes would be down for some psychological torment. But a couple of thugs from flea bottom, not a chance.
Which I suspect is why the scene didn't play out. GRRM is a contrarian and loves sacrificing good story telling on the altar of "disappointing but realistic" choices.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
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