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 Fenris Frost wrote:
Pretty surprised at the hate for the Wyvern. In this current day and age of 40k there is a lot of T3 on the table (behind Aegis Lines, mostly), and even though it will give them an armor save there is still a lot of re-rollable-wounds-on-3 dice to be had from a couple of these things.

Tau, Eldar, the gigantic Nid units we see cropping up, other Guard armies, and even Daemons (the troops, anyway) will probably take a lot of wounds from these things. I could see them being effective just by sheer volume of saves.

Though I also suspect next edition a rules change to barrage to make them faster to roll, but that is pure speculation.

I don't think there's a lot of hate for the Wyvern. There's hate for the fact the Wyvern replaced 3 perfectly good artillery tanks that we already had. There's dislike of how long it takes to do a 4-12 shot TL barrage. Personally I'm not a fan of the model itself (it looks like the most arse-about way to do an artillery vehicle), but that's just personal preference.

 Fenris Frost wrote:
(...)
Also surprised how many people are mad about penal legion. Never seen one fielded in 9 years of play, didn't think anyone would miss them.

That´s easy. Just apply the same reasoning to another Codex.

Let´s get the CSM Codex. At this point, the only units you´ll see are Cultists, Heldrakes and a cheap Sorcerer/Lord, or a DP. So imagine GW releases a new Codex: CSM with only 5 units, getting rid of everything "nobody uses". For twice the price.

If a unit is not working, they should fix it, not just erase it. Many people liked the background of the unit and would have fielded it if it were able to compete with Veterans.

People want more things with every Codex, no less.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
For the record, I like the TauRocks model. (I hate the name however. I'll spell it like that for the rest of my days)

I think the AM ability to put down enough pie plates to wipe out and enemy army on turn 1 it a bit much though...

Do many people pronounce it Tau? I have never heard it as anything other than Taw.

I've been pronouncing it "Tore-ox".

I'd like to get the new codex...overall it seems to be received positively. My only gripe so far though is the axing of the non-Cadian/non-Catachan characters (...and MARBO) - it just lost some of the flavor that made the IG, err, AM a bit more diverse. And where in the hell is Schaeffer and The Last Chancers?!

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
For the record, I like the TauRocks model. (I hate the name however. I'll spell it like that for the rest of my days)

I think the AM ability to put down enough pie plates to wipe out and enemy army on turn 1 it a bit much though...

Do many people pronounce it Tau? I have never heard it as anything other than Taw.

I've been pronouncing it "Tore-ox".

Weather or not it's pronounced Tore-ox, or Tau-Rocks. It's spelled like Tau_rocks. And I shall make fun of that 'til the end o' time

I've always been pronouncing it tore-ox, the same way I pronounce taurus tore-us.

The fact Taurox has Tau in it didn't really occur to me until someone pointed it out, I just saw a mutation of Taurus, lol.

 da001 wrote:

 Fenris Frost wrote:
(...)
Also surprised how many people are mad about penal legion. Never seen one fielded in 9 years of play, didn't think anyone would miss them.

That´s easy. Just apply the same reasoning to another Codex.

Let´s get the CSM Codex. At this point, the only units you´ll see are Cultists, Heldrakes and a cheap Sorcerer/Lord, or a DP. So imagine GW releases a new Codex: CSM with only 5 units, getting rid of everything "nobody uses". For twice the price.

If a unit is not working, they should fix it, not just erase it. Many people liked the background of the unit and would have fielded it if it were able to compete with Veterans.

People want more things with every Codex, no less.

Agreed, penal legion had great potential with scouts and stubborn. Give them their abilities as doctrines, like vets, ws4, and reduce the price. Also, allow the overseer to take wargear.

 Crablezworth wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
1. We didn't get any cool new hotness.

S10 AP1 10 inch blast with no cover that can be twin linked via primaris, pretty hot. The wyvern is also hot and when spammed will be broken as feth. 9 of them would be 36 small blasts a turn and the initial shot is twin linked, that's pretty hot. That's less than 600pts... pretty hot.


I will say though that codex really heavily incentives blobs.

Ironically, said Wyverns are a pretty good hard counter to said blob squads.

da001 wrote:Let´s get the CSM Codex. At this point, the only units you´ll see are Cultists, Heldrakes and a cheap Sorcerer/Lord, or a DP. So imagine GW releases a new Codex: CSM with only 5 units, getting rid of everything "nobody uses". For twice the price.

But that's absurdly claiming that there are only a few units everyone brings and then literally no one else ever brings any of the units.

Penal legionnaires weren't a slightly underpowered unit that vapid netlisting didn't include, but lots of other people used them. Penal legions were a unit that practically nobody used, and those who did, didn't use them often, and I never saw an army based around them. They were a unit that ACTUALLY wasn't taken that often rather than a specious argument that no one took them because GT players didn't use them.

overall its not bad.
except for kicking the hydra around too much and the thing that really irks me is the lack of the Colossus, Medusa, and Gryphon. BUt I suppose people won't complain if I just use the old dex just for those. otherwise that's 4 whole units gone....

THe only thing that disappointed me besides the arty and hydra was the lack of adding more Russes like the Laser Destroyer or thunderer to the codex. Oh well, no one complains if I bring the imperial armor book anyways.

It's not surprising to me that the internet that discounted Ogryns in the previous edition are still deriding current Ogryns.

Ogryns were pretty good before. Their one problem, which was a pretty enormous one, got solved in this codex since I can now add a 25 point, non-entire HQ slot, man to them to raise their LD up to great.

Yes, this codex was mostly points shuffling and re-balancing, but it all trended for the positive.

The only drawback I find in it is the loss of several of the special characters (Marbo excluded, because he had to go). Losing Al'Rahem, Chenkov, and Kamir was a pretty bad deal.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The only drawback I find in it is the loss of several of the special characters (Marbo excluded, because he had to go). Losing Al'Rahem, Chenkov, and Kamir was a pretty bad deal.

Not to mention, why even keep harker if you're gonna make him pointless? I would have rather had a re-named marbo than a harker whose balls have been removed.

 Ailaros wrote:

da001 wrote:Let´s get the CSM Codex. At this point, the only units you´ll see are Cultists, Heldrakes and a cheap Sorcerer/Lord, or a DP. So imagine GW releases a new Codex: CSM with only 5 units, getting rid of everything "nobody uses". For twice the price.

But that's absurdly claiming that there are only a few units everyone brings and then literally no one else ever brings any of the units.

Penal legionnaires weren't a slightly underpowered unit that vapid netlisting didn't include, but lots of other people used them. Penal legions were a unit that practically nobody used, and those who did, didn't use them often, and I never saw an army based around them. They were a unit that ACTUALLY wasn't taken that often rather than a specious argument that no one took them because GT players didn't use them.

Perhaps, but at the end of the day the reasoning is the same: if something is broken, and a new version of the Codex is out, it should fix it. Instead, we are getting less units & options with each Codex. That´s not cool. In my opinion, at least.

 TheSilo wrote:
(...)
Agreed, penal legion had great potential with scouts and stubborn. Give them their abilities as doctrines, like vets, ws4, and reduce the price. Also, allow the overseer to take wargear.

^This. It is not that difficult to fix a unit. And once it is fixed, there is no reason for not seeing Penal Legion armies.

The same go for named characters and artillery units.

 Crablezworth wrote:

Not to mention, why even keep harker if you're gonna make him pointless?

Snuh? Is your copy of the codex different than mine? Harker isn't pointless.

Somewhat different, but pretty far from pointless.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

Not to mention, why even keep harker if you're gonna make him pointless?

Snuh? Is your copy of the codex different than mine? Harker isn't pointless.

Somewhat different, but pretty far from pointless.

Eh, what? If you don't think he's pointless there's a pretty good chance I actually have a different codex to yours.

Because all I see is that you'd spend a ridiculous amount of points on giving one sergeant a fancy heavy bolter.

Thud wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

Not to mention, why even keep harker if you're gonna make him pointless?

Snuh? Is your copy of the codex different than mine? Harker isn't pointless.

Somewhat different, but pretty far from pointless.

Eh, what? If you don't think he's pointless there's a pretty good chance I actually have a different codex to yours.

Because all I see is that you'd spend a ridiculous amount of points on giving one sergeant a fancy heavy bolter.

Exactly, he used to benefit the squad by letting them outflank, now he's just a really expensive rending relentless heavy bolter. He's the price on an old chimera and does nothing for the squad.

 Crablezworth wrote:

Thud wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

Not to mention, why even keep harker if you're gonna make him pointless?

Snuh? Is your copy of the codex different than mine? Harker isn't pointless.

Somewhat different, but pretty far from pointless.

Eh, what? If you don't think he's pointless there's a pretty good chance I actually have a different codex to yours.

Because all I see is that you'd spend a ridiculous amount of points on giving one sergeant a fancy heavy bolter.

Exactly, he used to benefit the squad by letting them outflank, now he's just a really expensive rending relentless heavy bolter. He's the price on an old chimera and does nothing for the squad.

So everyone is clear, only 1/9 shots will be a rending shot (2/3 hit, 1/6 are 6 to wound). He costs as much as 5 heavy bolters. He costs as much as a Taurox with a tl-autocannon and heavy stubber. He is no where close to being worth it. He's T3, 1W.

Harker doesn't confer relentless to his squad. How is he at all useful?

 TheSilo wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

Thud wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

Not to mention, why even keep harker if you're gonna make him pointless?

Snuh? Is your copy of the codex different than mine? Harker isn't pointless.

Somewhat different, but pretty far from pointless.

Eh, what? If you don't think he's pointless there's a pretty good chance I actually have a different codex to yours.

Because all I see is that you'd spend a ridiculous amount of points on giving one sergeant a fancy heavy bolter.

Exactly, he used to benefit the squad by letting them outflank, now he's just a really expensive rending relentless heavy bolter. He's the price on an old chimera and does nothing for the squad.

So everyone is clear, only 1/9 shots will be a rending shot (2/3 hit, 1/6 are 6 to wound). He costs as much as 5 heavy bolters. He costs as much as a Taurox with a tl-autocannon and heavy stubber. He is no where close to being worth it. He's T3, 1W.

Harker doesn't confer relentless to his squad. How is he at all useful?

Stick him on a large base and he's a Heavy Bolter Heavy Weapons Team for Catachan!

Expensive and pointless are not synonyms.

Thud gets a pass since he's Norwegian. The rest of you should know better about how language actually matters.

Sure, but what is the point to him? Just to get another heavy bolter in a squad?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Expensive and pointless are not synonyms.

Thud gets a pass since he's Norwegian. The rest of you should know better about how language actually matters.

Even in Norway we have the Googles, so I managed to look it up. It told me pointless means "without force, meaning, or relevance."

Seems to me like that describes Harker pretty well.

Unless, of course, you'd like to actually string an argument together instead of just acting like a condescending prat.

 Ailaros wrote:
Sure, but what is the point to him? Just to get another heavy bolter in a squad?

Largely, that's kind of what it looks like at the moment. I'd use him as a Heavy Bolter Weapons Team just to get utility out of the model though.

So, that means that the best you can probably do with him is...

Vets - harker, heavy bolter
Chimera - 2x heavy bolters, heavy stubber

That way you put down 12 S5 shots (three with rending), and 3 S4 shots. Sounds like a lot of dakka...

... but it is all rather lightweight. Furthermore, it costs 195 points.

For that price you can nearly afford a squad of vets and a punisher...

 Ailaros wrote:
So, that means that the best you can probably do with him is...

Vets - harker, heavy bolter
Chimera - 2x heavy bolters, heavy stubber

That way you put down 12 S5 shots (three with rending), and 3 S4 shots. Sounds like a lot of dakka...

... but it is all rather lightweight. Furthermore, it costs 195 points.

For that price you can nearly afford a squad of vets and a punisher...

Yeah, if Relentless conferred to the whole squad I could see the point but as it stands....meeeeeeeh.

AM seems quite strong from here, both by itself and when allying in others. Let's see what it gets:

-Amazing access to psykers. Really they field more and better psyker support than Thousand Sons, and they tecnically hate psykers!

-Great support. Stealing PotMS from marines to give to your tanks, flexible command squad additions, orders, the aforementioned psykers, priests are cheap and amazing, comissars....you name it.

-Tank commanders! Now you don't even have to bother with infantry HQs if you don't want to.

-Wyvern: It's not helldrake-level broken, but it's quite good. It puts a LOT of wounds on stuff, and if you have a psyker handy (and you will), you can reroll the hits AND the wounds, ever time. On average it will kill 2 MeQs and change each turn, but averages don't tell the whole story. It's a great way to make the enemy start making saves early and often.

-Scale. Fielded as Allies, AM lets you bring 6 heavy tanks into play. As a stand-alone army, it gets almost ridiculous. You can make armored battalions, airborne spam, human waves, combined forces, artillery divisions, all fielding lots of whatever your favorite thing is.

Now for the negatives:

-Vendetta nerf: As other said, this was badly needed. Now it takes some actual investment to be able to kill any other flyer in the game in a single turn. It's still great, just not the auto-include-two-of-them it was before.

-Missing stuff: Sad, but it's a trend. GW basically had a meeting and said "let's stop paying these hippie writers we have to write more models for us to make, and get them to plug the models we're already making. Less expenses that way!" Makes me fear for my Baron Sathonyx when Dark Eldar get their book.

-

This might have been covered in a previous thread but has anyone seen anything about Vostroyan Firstborn and whether they will be updated any time soon? getting their own mini-codex spinoff perhaps?

Cheers

I wouldn't say he's worthless. Yes, he doesn't add much to the army and he costs far more points than he's worth.
His real use is the possibilities for conversions!

 MWHistorian wrote:
I wouldn't say he's worthless. Yes, he doesn't add much to the army and he costs far more points than he's worth.
His real use is the possibilities for conversions!

Spoiler:

Guess he's a sexual tyrannosaurus?

 Ailaros wrote:
So, that means that the best you can probably do with him is...

Vets - harker, heavy bolter
Chimera - 2x heavy bolters, heavy stubber

That way you put down 12 S5 shots (three with rending), and 3 S4 shots. Sounds like a lot of dakka...

... but it is all rather lightweight. Furthermore, it costs 195 points.

For that price you can nearly afford a squad of vets and a punisher...

No one balks when someone says they build their army and fill the last <100 points up with doodads, until it's a doodad the internet dislikes.

This next point does not include Ailaros since he only claimed Harker had low value.

For those of you claiming Harker has no value (which is what pointless means), you consider two armies that are made up of exactly the same units, except one had 40,000 more Harkers to be exactly equal armies.

I never said he was amazing. I made what I thought to be an non-contentious point that his value was above zero.

DarknessEternal wrote:No one balks when someone says they build their army and fill the last <100 points up with doodads, until it's a doodad the internet dislikes.

It's kind of crummy, though, if the best reason to take harker is because you have 55 points to blow and have nothing else to spend them on.

DarknessEternal wrote: you consider two armies that are made up of exactly the same units, except one had 40,000 more Harkers to be exactly equal armies.

Hey, I'm the one that's supposed to make silly analogies!