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 EVIL INC wrote:
To the OP...
Most of the miniature games cost too much. lol
Have you looked at board games and seen their prices?

Board games usually use low quality models or soft plastic that is often inappropriate for painting up nicely.

Wargames are somewhere between board games and finescale models.

I say play Kill Team

DV doesn't give you a full army, but neither do the others, and I see it as a better buy simply because you get more minis, which means more painting time, which is largely what I buy stuff for these days.

but DA armies dont run tacticals or terminators , same for lords and sorc on foot. cultists are used, but I don't think I ever saw chosen used , specialy armed for melee the way DV ones are armed. The hellbrute is a rather weak unit too, without the formation book. The infnity and starwars starters cost less, even without buying the extra codex, and give you units that people will want to use.

For the cost of books alone one can buy armies for other systems. Army book 50$, ally book 50$, lets say we are lucky and don't have to use supplement and save on that. then the fortification book which is out of print and hard to get 33$. thats 130$ and we have to get a pdf of the main rules.

I say play Kill Team

Against yourself maybe. The normal game here is 1500pts, you almost never see bigger games ,unless people are testing for tournaments and definitly never less points.

Makumba wrote:

DV doesn't give you a full army, but neither do the others, and I see it as a better buy simply because you get more minis, which means more painting time, which is largely what I buy stuff for these days.

but DA armies dont run tacticals or terminators , same for lords and sorc on foot. cultists are used, but I don't think I ever saw chosen used , specialy armed for melee the way DV ones are armed. The hellbrute is a rather weak unit too, without the formation book. The infnity and starwars starters cost less, even without buying the extra codex, and give you units that people will want to use.

You're dealing in absolutes again. I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of DA armies use Tactical or Deathwing. Chaos can almost always make use of the Lord or at least use him as a Sorcerer if it comes to it. The Chosen are difficult to place simply due to the mixed up weapons, but sprinkling them around as Aspiring Champions is a good way to use them. Thee Helbrute is decent enough.


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Makumba wrote:

For the cost of books alone one can buy armies for other systems. Army book 50$, ally book 50$, lets say we are lucky and don't have to use supplement and save on that. then the fortification book which is out of print and hard to get 33$. thats 130$ and we have to get a pdf of the main rules.

You don't ever need allies or supplements, they are simply options that can be used.

You don't ever need allies or supplements, they are simply options that can be used.

Yeah right. I totaly can play DE without eldar ally or GK without marine or SW ally or nids without their supplement. Only then I would get a bad list.

Chaos can almost always make use of the Lord or at least use him as a Sorcerer if it comes to it. The Chosen are difficult to place simply due to the mixed up weapons, but sprinkling them around as Aspiring Champions is a good way to use them. Thee Helbrute is decent enough.

But never on foot, always on bikes, unless he is taken as ally to a demon army, but then we have to add a third codex to starting books.
The hellbrute is super bad, bad weapon , no drop pod option , with formation at least buffs the cultists.

And the sprinkling works on which units from the DV set? cultists cant take champions as leader. You would have to buy csm or plague marines which are not in the DV book. And even if you did, no one takes claws or ax or even worse fists on their asp champions.

I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of DA armies use Tactical or Deathwing.

DW terminator armies are not viable in 7th ed and bikers are better troops for DA , specialy when they can combine them with White Scares marines and double dip on traits and units they don't normaly have.Why would anyone want to use tacs in their DA army? They have no traits, dakka banner works better on other units. They don't even work well as sm tacs in a DA list as obligatory tax ally troop, because scouts cost less and bikers have more synergy.

 Paradigm wrote:

You don't ever need allies or supplements, they are simply options that can be used.

Did GW need to make supplements at all? Instead of just, I don't know, putting those 4 pages of rules in the main codex.

But, I guess if they did that you might actually get what you pay for with the new books. Can't have that.

 vipoid wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

You don't ever need allies or supplements, they are simply options that can be used.

Did GW need to make supplements at all? Instead of just, I don't know, putting those 4 pages of rules in the main codex.

But, I guess if they did that you might actually get what you pay for with the new books. Can't have that.

Why make an absurd $50 on one army's rules when you can make $100 or more?

Makumba wrote:

You don't ever need allies or supplements, they are simply options that can be used.

Yeah right. I totaly can play DE without eldar ally or GK without marine or SW ally or nids without their supplement. Only then I would get a bad list.

Chaos can almost always make use of the Lord or at least use him as a Sorcerer if it comes to it. The Chosen are difficult to place simply due to the mixed up weapons, but sprinkling them around as Aspiring Champions is a good way to use them. Thee Helbrute is decent enough.

But never on foot, always on bikes, unless he is taken as ally to a demon army, but then we have to add a third codex to starting books.
The hellbrute is super bad, bad weapon , no drop pod option , with formation at least buffs the cultists.

And the sprinkling works on which units from the DV set? cultists cant take champions as leader. You would have to buy csm or plague marines which are not in the DV book. And even if you did, no one takes claws or ax or even worse fists on their asp champions.

I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of DA armies use Tactical or Deathwing.

DW terminator armies are not viable in 7th ed and bikers are better troops for DA , specialy when they can combine them with White Scares marines and double dip on traits and units they don't normaly have.Why would anyone want to use tacs in their DA army? They have no traits, dakka banner works better on other units. They don't even work well as sm tacs in a DA list as obligatory tax ally troop, because scouts cost less and bikers have more synergy.

I know by now there's no point arguing with these ideas you have that you must only ever build the best, most optimised list with no chance for innovation, background or free thought, so I'll just not bother. For the record, I do disagree with everything you said.

Paradigm, from what I understand Makumba comes from sort of Polish ultra-competitive scene, tis a harsh environment out there

 TedNugent wrote:
DV's models are deliberately underwhelming, so I don't really think that's a fair comparison.

All of the models in DV are deliberately designed only to be used in either a DA or CSM army. Unlike in Black Reach, which contained generic marines that could be suited for any chapter or any Codex, DA marines have insignias and art that only make them suitable in DA armies. The Terminators and bikers are also bogged with RW/DW insignias, which makes them technically not suitable as vanilla terminators or white scars. The DA Codex itself is $50 and is widely considered one of the worst codexes.

The CSM codex is not a very great tier, and what is included in the DV box is not the best pick of the codex. Cultists, Chosen, a HELBRUTE (bottom-rung).

As a model kit, Dark Vengeance is a superb value, but let me ask this: how many of you even use one single model from the DV kit? By contrast, how many of you own a DV kit? How many of you have DV models sitting in your closet, not ever touching the table?

To be fair, I do use all of the cultists, and have used some of the chosen to be my aspiring Champions in lists. Still doesn't come close to making up the cost of the box and the CSM codex doesn't add any favors

Also to be fair those RW bikes make excellent Emp Children bikes

Wow, I hope none of you play any games on the computer or console. Did you know that games on Steam are functionally free, but for some reason they still charge for them? It's true! The bandwidth to distribute them costs almost nothing, but the average seems to be $10-$20! The markup is simply unreal!

So the major discussion, when you cut everything that's been posted here to the core, is in perceived value. The issue is it's nigh impossible to convince someone that what they perceive as value isn't. I've seen several posts here argue the fact that X-Wing minis are painted lowers the value; for me it's just the opposite - I view painting models as a chore I have to do to make them at least look decent to play with (and to be honest, I don't get that chore done as often as I should). I'm a gamer, I enjoy gaming, I enjoy wargames for the customization of your side rather than the static nature of board games. Given the choice, I will always choose painted models. Does this mean the person that perceives the X-Wing models to be less of a value is wrong? Absolutely not, I know several people that enjoy painting the figures at least as much, if not more than gaming with them. However, his argument also does not mean I am wrong in the value I get out of already painted models and being able to just get to the gaming.

I will say that I agree that 40k and WHFB do not scale down to skirmish level well at all. I love the games but they really need to be played over 1000 points or the imbalance already in the games is greatly magnified. This is why there needs to be special rules for Kill Team and Combat Patrol. Also, outside of special events, very few people ever want to play either GW game at skirmish level, so to maximize your investment to get the greatest number of games and opponents you really do need to be able to field a minimum of 1500 points, which is ridiculously expensive. To truly look at how expensive a game is, you really need to first determine the most popular approximate point value the game is played at (as that will get the best value for your investment by allowing the most games), determine how many of which models you need to field a relatively competitive force at that point value(because the majority of people playing games, while not WAAC, usually wants a chance to be competitive and not get board wiped asap), and then get the cost of that force. When you do this, I think you will find that GW games are easily the most expensive to play.

If you want great value in table-top gaming, historicals are where its at.

Long and short of it for me is not so much the cost as the overall experience. Arguably other people's models are as good as GW's, certainly true in many instances. However, the big seller for me and what draws me into spending money is the background, the depth, the detail, the colour. It is so developed now over so long. I think it helps to be British as it is very unmistakably British in style. That's it for me, I love the background I can really identify with my army. When I look at other games I see an attempt to knock off a similar background such as WMH. If 40K's background is an ocean, deep and overflowing with detail and interest WMH is a shallow pond which holds no interest to me. I cannot be wooed with the promise of cheaper games. I don't want to play skirmish or small unit games, I want large armies. You can't win me over by saying "this only costs £50 to buy into". I'm lucky I guess that I have spare cash but if you show me something which has cheaper smaller armies I just think "show me the background, is it compelling and deep?" and the answer is always "no". So I keep loyal to GW as long as they keep producing this immersive experience. I know so much about my armies, their background, history, etc. I really identify with them and they feel like proper fully fleshed out and detailed societies. I know GW is derivative but they've taken it and exploded it out into so much more. It was originally space elves, space orcs, etc but now it is so rich, so deep, so compelling. Also I accept that they have not built up the Tau and Necrons as much but all the other races have great backgrounds.

Librarian = $30

Tac squad + Rhino: $40 + $37 = $77
Tac squad + Rhino = $77

Storm Talon = $45
Biker squad = $40
Biker Squad = $40

Vindicator = $57
Vindicator = $57
Hunter/stalker = $65
That's roughly 1,000 points, a small game for 40k. $488.
Now add rulebook $90 and codex for $60 the total is $638

Now a Warmachine army of 35 points. (We'll use my Convergence army as an example.)
Caster = $25
Heavy vector = $35
Heavy vector = $35
heavy Vector = $35
Infantry = $50
Light Vector = $19
Solo = $12
Solo = $12
servitors = $12
Total = $235
With rule book(s) = $30
Grand total = $265.

My Infinity army was vastly less expensive.

It's quite possible that I did the maths wrong seeing as how I was a history and art major, but I think you get the general idea.

And Warmachine's fluff is not shallow at all. It's actually quite in depth and awesome.

 Accolade wrote:
Paradigm, from what I understand Makumba comes from sort of Polish ultra-competitive scene, tis a harsh environment out there

There's a world of difference between operating in an ultra competitive environment and being utterly unable to compute that not all playing environments operate in this way.

Makumba seems totally unable to concede that his way is not the only way the game is played, despite many of us trying to explain so previously. It's one thing to disagree with something, it is another to apparently deny it exists at all.

A Warlord Games Bolt Action 1000 point army of your choosing.

$128.00

Usually contains around 45-70 infantry models with Tank or a Tank and a Vehicle and support weapons.

60 USD dollars for the Rule Book and the nation book of your choice.

Total to build a large, fully customizable army full of options beyond the recommended list and have the rules to play your nation and more comes to:

$188.00 USD

This US Army set is just one example: http://us-store.warlordgames.com/collections/bolt-action-army-deals/products/1000pts-us-army

Thats for 28mm multi-part nicely detailed and fully customizable models. Enough for a 1000 point game which is the normal sized game for this system.

You can take this further by simply buying a basic infantry kit and building all your extras out of it, such as observers, officers, medics and snipers and whatever else you want.

Considering that a Privateer army comes to 265 with fiddly models and few models at that, and GW is worse with its GWness I think historicals are the way to go for the easiest and cheapest way of getting into the hobby. Thats without looking at the alternatives such as 1:72 scale etc

Privateer press, X-wing and GW all have stupidly priced minis.

I'm glad you brought up Bolt Action, because IMO that's how a 40k army should be priced. Even if they did't go the 1,000 point being the normal size route (because bigger = better I guess), even a 1,000 point starting army for $128USD would go a long way to help 40k being more affordable (and IMO the books should be closer to bolt action as well. A "codex" is $25, the hardcover book is $35 and both are good quality full color, that's quite reasonable). That means your buy-in to get started is under $200, which is great. Instead, a 1,000 point 40k army runs about double that or more.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I'm glad you brought up Bolt Action, because IMO that's how a 40k army should be priced. Even if they did't go the 1,000 point being the normal size route (because bigger = better I guess), even a 1,000 point starting army for $128USD would go a long way to help 40k being more affordable (and IMO the books should be closer to bolt action as well. A "codex" is $25, the hardcover book is $35 and both are good quality full color, that's quite reasonable). That means your buy-in to get started is under $200, which is great. Instead, a 1,000 point 40k army runs about double that or more.

More than three times more.

I agree. I purchased 2 armies and ALL the books in a set because it was so cheap and was able to do demo games and so on. Was great fun.

I felt the models had a lot more real options too, compared to GW models. So many poses, different gear and all the weapons I could find in the book were there too.

The book is great as well. In the army books it has page numbers for were to find the rule for a unit in the main rule book. Made it so easy to find relevant rules.

All in all, the easiest game to get into if you know nothing. In my opinion.

And thats just comparing them in US to US prices. If I took a 40k army in NZD dollars, converted it to US dollars the gap in price between them gets bigger.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I'm glad you brought up Bolt Action, because IMO that's how a 40k army should be priced. Even if they did't go the 1,000 point being the normal size route (because bigger = better I guess), even a 1,000 point starting army for $128USD would go a long way to help 40k being more affordable (and IMO the books should be closer to bolt action as well. A "codex" is $25, the hardcover book is $35 and both are good quality full color, that's quite reasonable). That means your buy-in to get started is under $200, which is great. Instead, a 1,000 point 40k army runs about double that or more.

IMO there is a lot about Bolt Action that 40K should be. I'd be keen to start an army, but I've got a bunch of projects ahead of that in the queue.

One of which is Darklands, and that's an excellent illustration of how price =\= value. Many of the prices of Mierce stuff is well, sharp, to say the least, the big stuff compares well to similar size models from FW or any of the high end resin companies, but the infantry is probably amongst the most you can pay for a man-sized resin model outside of some character models etc.. Thing is, those of us who are into it don't really care. Obviously I'd love to be able to afford to buy all of the things, but I don't mind that I'm paying a premium because firstly, I think the minis are top notch from concept through sculpting to production, and secondly because I feel much more connected to the company and community than I do GW.

I've said it before, and nothing ever changes whenever this topic comes up, nobody actually has an issue with GW's prices, even if they think they do, it is because many people, and apparently in growing numbers, are finding it harder to find value in what GW are offering. I have no philosophical objection to paying a lot of money for a model or kit, as long as I feel the kit represents good value in terms of what it represents in game or if I find it aesthetically pleasing enough, I also find many of GW's plastic troop kits (Tac Squad, Firewarriors, Lesser Daemons etc) to be of at least reasonable value, but when you're charging quite a lot more for fewer models than these kits, I think the way forward is to find a different approach than "we expect to sell fewer of these, so we'll charge a lot more."

 Accolade wrote:
Paradigm, from what I understand Makumba comes from sort of Polish ultra-competitive scene, tis a harsh environment out there

It has little to do with competitive gaming. I played in 2 tournaments in over 3 years of playing. But absolutly no one would buy a bad army or bad units around here, the gaming cost is too high for people to waste money on stuff that may not work .

Makumba seems totally unable to concede that his way is not the only way the game is played, despite many of us trying to explain so previously. It's one thing to disagree with something, it is another to apparently deny it exists at all.

There are only two options. Either people look how much the stuff costs, see that it costs a lot to them and in general buy the good stuff over the bad stuff. Or people buy stuff at random. But if people buy stuff at random, then I have two questions. Why are serpent spams, screamers stars still viewed as a problem , when the chance to build those armies, if people are picking them at random should be rather low.

And in what kind of a bizzaro world am I right now, if the second army picking way is the dominant one

There are not two options, you can tell there aren't two options because people have explained to you that there is a third fething option.

 Azreal13 wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I'm glad you brought up Bolt Action, because IMO that's how a 40k army should be priced. Even if they did't go the 1,000 point being the normal size route (because bigger = better I guess), even a 1,000 point starting army for $128USD would go a long way to help 40k being more affordable (and IMO the books should be closer to bolt action as well. A "codex" is $25, the hardcover book is $35 and both are good quality full color, that's quite reasonable). That means your buy-in to get started is under $200, which is great. Instead, a 1,000 point 40k army runs about double that or more.

IMO there is a lot about Bolt Action that 40K should be. I'd be keen to start an army, but I've got a bunch of projects ahead of that in the queue.

Same, and I agree. Bolt Action is basically everything 40k should be - fairly simple to learn, clear rules, encourage tactics, balanced armies, reasonable prices.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I'm glad you brought up Bolt Action, because IMO that's how a 40k army should be priced. Even if they did't go the 1,000 point being the normal size route (because bigger = better I guess), even a 1,000 point starting army for $128USD would go a long way to help 40k being more affordable (and IMO the books should be closer to bolt action as well. A "codex" is $25, the hardcover book is $35 and both are good quality full color, that's quite reasonable). That means your buy-in to get started is under $200, which is great. Instead, a 1,000 point 40k army runs about double that or more.

IMO there is a lot about Bolt Action that 40K should be. I'd be keen to start an army, but I've got a bunch of projects ahead of that in the queue.

Same, and I agree. Bolt Action is basically everything 40k should be - fairly simple to learn, clear rules, encourage tactics, balanced armies, reasonable prices.

I too agree. In the process of making a 40k expansion for bolt action as we speak. Its such a great rule set.

Isengard wrote:
Long and short of it for me is not so much the cost as the overall experience. Arguably other people's models are as good as GW's, certainly true in many instances. However, the big seller for me and what draws me into spending money is the background, the depth, the detail, the colour.

I agree. I think the lore has an equal value to the crunch. I can't see any game selling itself as a collection of geometric vectors and calculations. You heed more.

Isengard wrote:
When I look at other games I see an attempt to knock off a similar background such as WMH. If 40K's background is an ocean, deep and overflowing with detail and interest WMH is a shallow pond which holds no interest to me.

To be fair, Pp's world is far from a 'knock off' of gw's. With respect, saying that demonstrates ignorance of their ip. Pp have done a rather excellent job of making a fantasy setting that is both strangely familiar, entirely unique, and quite different at the same time. A lot of their 'twists' on things are very clever and very well executed.

I think you'd be surprised at how deep and excellent privateer press' ip actually is. Far more than the 'shallow pond' you claim it to be. They've been developing their world for about fifteen years now. Have a go, and Read the iron kingdoms rpg material. It's excellent. Gritty, characterful, colourful, deep, immersive and very engrossing. It'll surprise you. And you have characters with actual character, and motivations beyond the rather one dimensional 40k staple of 'death to the....' And 'glory to the....'
And Compared to 40k? Hmm, more and more I've come to the conclusion that it's not so much 'Gw have written thirty years worth of lore', and more 'gw have lore written thirty years ago'. And it feels it's just been recycled and reprocessed since. Don't get me wrong - some of the second ed stuff is enjoyable, and the forgeworld imperial armour and Horus heresy books are fun reads (I love the recent three hh books), but there are as many misses as hits. Even in the 'glory days'.

Deadnight wrote:

Isengard wrote:
Long and short of it for me is not so much the cost as the overall experience. Arguably other people's models are as good as GW's, certainly true in many instances. However, the big seller for me and what draws me into spending money is the background, the depth, the detail, the colour.

I agree. I think the lore has an equal value to the crunch. I can't see any game selling itself as a collection of geometric vectors and calculations. You heed more.

Isengard wrote:
When I look at other games I see an attempt to knock off a similar background such as WMH. If 40K's background is an ocean, deep and overflowing with detail and interest WMH is a shallow pond which holds no interest to me.

To be fair, Pp's world is far from a 'knock off' of gw's. With respect, saying that demonstrates ignorance of their ip. Pp have done a rather excellent job of making a fantasy setting that is both strangely familiar, entirely unique, and quite different at the same time. A lot of their 'twists' on things are very clever and very well executed.

I think you'd be surprised at how deep and excellent privateer press' ip actually is. Far more than the 'shallow pond' you claim it to be. They've been developing their world for about fifteen years now. Have a go, and Read the iron kingdoms rpg material. It's excellent. Gritty, characterful, colourful, deep, immersive and very engrossing. It'll surprise you. And you have characters with actual character, and motivations beyond the rather one dimensional 40k staple of 'death to the....' And 'glory to the....'
And Compared to 40k? Hmm, more and more I've come to the conclusion that it's not so much 'Gw have written thirty years worth of lore', and more 'gw have lore written thirty years ago'. And it feels it's just been recycled and reprocessed since. Don't get me wrong - some of the second ed stuff is enjoyable, and the forgeworld imperial armour and Horus heresy books are fun reads (I love the recent three hh books), but there are as many misses as hits. Even in the 'glory days'.

The other big difference is that PP's story constantly evolves, while GW just has stuff happen and then it's oh it' still the last days of the 41st millenium and nothing is going to advance forward. WMH's lore constantly gets changed and the storyline advances, basically imagine as though the entirety of the End Times stuff (although not as much "Destroy everything!" scale) happens in every single product release.

GW is the pool here, just a very deep pool. Warmachine/Hordes is the ocean, because the lore is not only vast but there's still more of it coming.

While I never got into PP's background much, 40k's lore has most definitely gotten increasingly stale, one-dimensional, and very definitely recycled, starting late 4th/early 5th edition, at least for main codex/rulebook type stuff.

Isengard wrote:
Long and short of it for me is not so much the cost as the overall experience. Arguably other people's models are as good as GW's, certainly true in many instances. However, the big seller for me and what draws me into spending money is the background, the depth, the detail, the colour. It is so developed now over so long. I think it helps to be British as it is very unmistakably British in style. That's it for me, I love the background I can really identify with my army. When I look at other games I see an attempt to knock off a similar background such as WMH. If 40K's background is an ocean, deep and overflowing with detail and interest WMH is a shallow pond which holds no interest to me. I cannot be wooed with the promise of cheaper games. I don't want to play skirmish or small unit games, I want large armies. You can't win me over by saying "this only costs £50 to buy into". I'm lucky I guess that I have spare cash but if you show me something which has cheaper smaller armies I just think "show me the background, is it compelling and deep?" and the answer is always "no". So I keep loyal to GW as long as they keep producing this immersive experience. I know so much about my armies, their background, history, etc. I really identify with them and they feel like proper fully fleshed out and detailed societies. I know GW is derivative but they've taken it and exploded it out into so much more. It was originally space elves, space orcs, etc but now it is so rich, so deep, so compelling. Also I accept that they have not built up the Tau and Necrons as much but all the other races have great backgrounds.

This. 40k ain't perfect, but damn do I love it and damn is it fun