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WAAC is a way of life so it is not so special to only be found in gaming.
It is just the person who wants to pull a "win" over someone with little regard for rules or manners.
They are also rather "non-sustainable" since you only need to be burned once unless you are a masochist.

So in the theme of this thread, do not reward bad behavior, I would see how long you can go playing there without buying anything.
It would give a warm feeling when asked: "When I am ready to support how you treat people".
Iam sure being kicked out would be one of the options but your heart wouldn't be in the place anyway and steps would be taken.

Yep, pretty much an echo of most people.

If the store is at fault, you have a world of online purchasing options. Most likely so hostile a store will dwindle and eventually go out of business.

You are able and are encouraged to create a private group of players in the meantime. There's plenty of online resources to do so. Post here, or in various places looking for gamers. It's actually a golden age of being able to find other local gamers, and it sounds like you would already have one.

You would have to create a play space, either at a home or elsewhere. I recommend, if you're in the states, looking around at community centers, or places with board rooms. Many such places are very open to cheaply renting the space out on a regular basis for groups of people.

I know one club in Arizona rents a big unused board/meeting room in a utilities area. I've looked into using my local community center to host a tournament when it expanded beyond what the local store could hold.

And that WAAC stuff, well it's a social world, and part of being social is choosing who you are social with and in what way.

Clearly, the only option is to nuke whatever planet this store exists on. It's the only way to be sure.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Clearly, the only option is to nuke whatever planet this store exists on. It's the only way to be sure.

I do love people with a direct approach with little or no moderation.
It just brings a smile to my face, I admire the vision and then back regrettably from the brink.
Slowly stealing members away from the store until it is a ghost-town on game nights is possibly punishment enough.
Some like their nukes , some like stealth ... it is all good.

It's all or nothing in my world!!

 Vertrucio wrote:
Warmachine didn't steal his girlfriend, it just stole a lot of 40k players that wouldn't blindly accept with GW's BS like he does. Well, most likely it was other competitors like X-Wing..

The community can make or break any game; don't matter what it is. Currently locally we have a large number of players starting war machine... But I being an old GW fan boy.. I hurts knowing my beloved game is slowly dying in my area. But I can clearly see the cause of the decline, most old timers I know are either tied up with jobs and/or family and get only a few basement games a year; Leaving the only remaining GW gamers in the area whom are very clickish and seem to drive off new players instead of welcoming them. But the local Press gangers work together as a band of brothers to run games or tournaments anywhere they can. Most of the time you have a early tournament posting with the press ganger TBD; Each takes turns and they work it out where they all get equal billing as it should work.

As for the OP; sounds like some in store politics is happening; I don't know how the press ganger system works; but I know its not a competition; its a way to support and promote the war machine game.

They don't seem like very a nice group of people. I would try to find a new store.

Been through a lot of stores myself in my travels and seen some "cliques" in my times. It's sad that you have to deal with that situation. I'd walk, or even switch games if it meant finding a new crowd. A bad 40k scene was the last straw in me dumping the game any trying new ones, settling primarily into Warmachine play.

If you're a PG, I'd say it's part of your responsibility to report what's going on as it's not conducive or healthy to the game as a whole and can reflect poorly on it (see the petty asides/ranting going on in this thread by the perception of W/H crowds). Don't get into the petty he-said, she-said, just reports the facts as you see it and move on. At the end of the day, it would probably make Joe lose his PG status, but the store owner/crowd won't care because they don't follow the spirit of the game or have official events. Let them fail at their own pace, so to speak.

If I were myself 15 years ago and had time to game in stores like I did back then, I would probably take a supreme amount of pleasure in repeatedly beating the piss out of people in the 'clique' in a game like Warmachine...

I guess part of the issue is that it doesn't involve me as Bob is an adult and they aren't harming the game really, and the last time i reported a store for doing what I thought wasn't appropriate it spiraled out of control and resulted in my not having a place to play for some 14 years.

I've told Bob he should report what goes on and how he's treated but I think his answer is just going to be screw it they don't want me there so I'll stop coming.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I guess part of the issue is that it doesn't involve me as Bob is an adult and they aren't harming the game really, and the last time i reported a store for doing what I thought wasn't appropriate it spiraled out of control and resulted in my not having a place to play for some 14 years.

I've told Bob he should report what goes on and how he's treated but I think his answer is just going to be screw it they don't want me there so I'll stop coming.

Then you've satisfied the dictates of honor by telling him and indicating at least your support and distaste for the store's behavior.

I'm assuming you don't want to stop gaming there (which is fine, despite being appalled by the behavior), so at that point i think if Bob decides to stop going, you're off the hook morally speaking (for lack of a better phrase).

Don't beat yourself up about this, and do what you can to build a less-toxic environment, but it's not your job to change the store. Dicks will be dicks.

Off the hook until the clique of mean girls-I mean gamers decide to turn on someone else.

Sining wrote:
Off the hook until the clique of mean girls-I mean gamers decide to turn on someone else.

How would that in any way be his fault though, making him "back on the hook" ? He's a press ganger. He's not Manners Batman. This is the store owner's issue, but as he's part of the problem, and likely doesn't view it as an issue, i doubt resolution will come from that vector.


In all my other posts i pretty much said "Yup, seen this a million times, this is a toxic group" and gave examples of where the toxicity was coming from. I have no doubt that they'll just find a new person to wolf pack attack once Bob is gone, but that's not going to be Wayne's fault.
It also isn't his problem to fix, either. I personally would find a new store / group / etc., but that's me.



Not trying to be combative, but in counter point to one part of your post what exactly is he supposed to do about it ?

Because i agree with the other part of your post FWIW ; it will happen again. If anything, the group will be emboldened by the fact that their wolfpack, groupthink, Bro-circling the wagons chased off the interloper they didn't like (and practically with store sanction!). So they'll keep doing it. In fact, i'll bet this progresses to an inter-store social hierarchy, where the lowest couple guys or gals on the perceived totem pole will get more and more not-so-good natured gak ; and they'll still be higher (to the clique) then the occasional visitors and randoms that come, who will be received with lukewarmness, and the first moment they do something the group doesn't like, start the behind the back gak-talking machine and gaming avoidance.

Man.. i'm going to be in central / southern florida for a week in May. I'm super tempted to swing by this store on warmachine night, not for any other reason but i'd love to observe the clique in its natural habitat and see how correct my assumptions (posted and unposted) are.

--------------------

Wayne ; curious question or you. THis owner. Is he the game store owner type that runs his business like a club house for his friends and the guys he likes (sounds like it), or on the whole is he a sound businessman first, gamer second ? I'd be willing the clubhouse type. Just curious as to how spot on some of my internal assumptions are as the picture gets painted more and more.

Not sure. he seems to want a business but I've never met a game store owner that had real business sense. Given how little he seems to know I'm guessing you're right. He's very new to the game store part.

I should have mentioned that this technically Is the second time. Two guys (same guy who started the Bob has been kicked out of every store stuff and the guy who told him to f off) also technically made someone else leave because they'd joke about his sister all the time (including hyping a warmachine game between the two of them on our group as the "Battle for X's Sister" and defended it by saying they only kept it up because they knew it got to him. They even did it after he stopped going to the shop. So these two are real life trolls basically. The scary part is they were friends with the guy outside the shop!

I'd say leave the store and find another group.

This group has ring-leaders who are determined to only do things their way; furthermore they appear to have a very brash and unwelcoming attitude. Because they are already established and because the store owner isn't setting the tone chances are you won't have a hope unless you can spend months convincing all the regulars slowly - and to be honest its probably better to just cut and go play at a store that has a more welcoming group in general.

Any social group is going to get leaders - any group is going to get some form of clique - some strong some weak; sometimes its even just who is around and majority joins as to how the social structure pans out.

The store owner should be in charge and leading; but it sounds like he's new to the idea of being a social manager not just a store owner - so he's siding with the popular group because that's supporting the majority of his business.



Bob might have done bad things in the past - he might have walked in too bossy - he might just have been an innocent who got the wrong day to turn up and earned the enmity of the social leaders. They set the tone toward him and others played along (some likely didn't even realise what they were doing).
However when it shifts form snide comments to actual damage to things he's given (on loan or donation) to the club then its a very bad sign. A club with no respect of the groups property and of property of individuals is a group with problems.



You can fight it out or just go have actual fun at another store. I'd say the latter is a LOT quicker and easier. If you can't and if its your only option - eh - you've got a long slog ahead.

I'm sorry but seems to me the store owner, Joe, and the others are being donkey caves. I don't blame Bob for taking his terrain that was being abused back. The others clearly didn't appreciate it.

On another note I was VERY sad when my local FLGS closed. The owner and people were VERY friendly and helpful. I had been out of MTG since Scourge. They welcomed me helped me get caught up with the rules and changes. Some even gave me cards to help me get more current. The owner was equally helpful. He and his family treated everyone equally well and tried to offer the best prices they could. If you could get something for quite a bit cheaper somewhere they gladly told you where. It was the store owner who took extra time out of his busy schedule to introduce me to 40k when I expressed interest. He told me the advantages and disadvantages of all the different armies as well as real money costs of the armies and generally helped figure what I wanted to play for MONTHS before I spent a dime on the game. Unfortunately in a small town in Eastern Montana it is hard to keep a place like this open. Especially when you work 40 hours a week running delivery for UPS and then running the store on the side. People getting their kids their toys for comparable prices elsewhere, and treating the store like a free daycare center doesn't help either. The reason the owner opened the store in the first place wasn't to make a lot of money. It was to give kids a place to go to keep out of trouble in a town that literally has NOTHING for younger people to do or older people unless you like bars and casinos. I don't blame the guy for closing the doors he wanted to spend more time with his family and be able to take them places other than the game store, which he didn't have the time to do while the doors were open. Sorry about the rant. I just feel like too often all FLGS are lumped together and looked down on as "guilt tripping you into buying things" as others have said, and I never felt that way at all about my FLGS. Heck Things cost me MORE now than they did before.

In the entire history of the store the cops were only called twice and only one person was ever banned. The guy who was banned was banned for pulling a knife on an opponent in a game of 40k and the police called. The second time the police were called was when an undercover cop came in trying to sell drugs because some donkey caves didn't like the "Store for nerds and losers" and reported to the police that drugs were being sold out of it.

You may want to speak to "Joe" and ask him what exactly he thinks he's doing, except being a complete jerk.
At my local GW, there is a core of established gamers about 40 strong (not all of who turn up regularly, but often enough to be in the circle).
The difference is we don't treat new people like dirt. I guess it may be to do with it being established and a proper wargaming store run by a professional company, and none of us have ties to its creation.

 Overread wrote:
I'd say leave the store and find another group.

This group has ring-leaders who are determined to only do things their way; furthermore they appear to have a very brash and unwelcoming attitude. Because they are already established and because the store owner isn't setting the tone chances are you won't have a hope unless you can spend months convincing all the regulars slowly - and to be honest its probably better to just cut and go play at a store that has a more welcoming group in general.

Any social group is going to get leaders - any group is going to get some form of clique - some strong some weak; sometimes its even just who is around and majority joins as to how the social structure pans out.

The store owner should be in charge and leading; but it sounds like he's new to the idea of being a social manager not just a store owner - so he's siding with the popular group because that's supporting the majority of his business.



Bob might have done bad things in the past - he might have walked in too bossy - he might just have been an innocent who got the wrong day to turn up and earned the enmity of the social leaders. They set the tone toward him and others played along (some likely didn't even realise what they were doing).
However when it shifts form snide comments to actual damage to things he's given (on loan or donation) to the club then its a very bad sign. A club with no respect of the groups property and of property of individuals is a group with problems.



You can fight it out or just go have actual fun at another store. I'd say the latter is a LOT quicker and easier. If you can't and if its your only option - eh - you've got a long slog ahead.

Have an exalt. Great post, and excellent, grounded synopsis of the situation. Couldn't agree more with this down to earth and realistic take on the scenario.

It's fair to point out that some people might have not realized that they were joining in with the wolf pack. I have found that's often true. That at the end of they day, when you ask some pointed questions, they don't really dislike the proverbial "BoB", never seen proverbial "Bob" do anything bad, but just sorta went along with the groupthink quasi-unwittingly.



I think another thing too, is that if someone has directly witness Bob peeing in their wheaties, yeah, not problem, genuinely dislike the guy. But if its all based on high-school behind the back talking, or the vast majority of it, then yeah.... i wish there was a "head shaking side to side.... "Nope."" orc-smiley.

 Haight wrote:


It's fair to point out that some people might have not realized that they were joining in with the wolf pack. I have found that's often true. That at the end of they day, when you ask some pointed questions, they don't really dislike the proverbial "BoB", never seen proverbial "Bob" do anything bad, but just sorta went along with the groupthink quasi-unwittingly.

This is a very good and very key point as well. If key people in the community behave a certain way and there is no "push back" then many people assume that is the right way to behave and do likewise. As such its very easy for a group to "gang up" upon another person without all the individuals within the group being fully aware that they are even doing that. Some might consider some of the comments a long running joke that they are taking part in because they want to "best part of the group".

Sometimes its even just the groups desire to have a blame-target. Something/someone that takes the blame for things. It's generally unhealthy to a community when this happens because it quickly gets engrained and even if the blame target leaves the attitude won't; the group simply starts to look for someone or something else (one could argue that in the gaming world things like EA and Games Workshop and to a partial extent Kickstarter (when it goes wrong) have become blame targets - although that's getting somewhat off-topic).

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
I suspect "Bob" crimes are nothing more than attending multiple stores. In a gaming store turf war, the simple act of gaming at multiple stores is a crime punishable by 'social exclusion'

Store owners sees every dime spent elsewhere as an attack of them personally. They see people who buy elsewhere or game elsewhere as spies looking to steal customers. So they whip the loyal locals into a hate frenzy to root out those who do not declare complete loyalty to the local store.

So if Bob is a press ganger, his job is to basically support and promote Warmachine at multiple stores. If the FLGS in the area are at war with each other via customer turf battles, he will probably be despised by everyone he tries to interact with.

All you can do is avoid FLGS which turn into cults like this. Situations like this is why I became a gaming Nomad. I would rather drive 2 hours for a tourney to game and go home than to deal with politics. I got quality gaming at well-roganized events and avoided the pitfalls of 'open gaming' with social clicks.

FLGS are the only business that offer things at extreme prices and guilt you into buying from them out on loyalty when they offer nothing for that loyalty

Not true. I've been to many stores which have great perks.

My hometown FLGS has a rewards program. On your 7th purchase you get 10% of the price of your previous 6 purchases as a gift card. They also do 10% off all gaming purchases on the designated weekday for that game, so you get 10% off on all miniatures on miniature game day. They also do 10% off special orders for anything not in stock. Monthly 40k tournament has a $10 entry fee and usually $150-200 in prize money for the top 3 placings depending on how many show up.

Another store has the entry fee for their monthly tournaments set up as either a flat $10 entry fee or a $20 purchase in the store.

Of course there are many stores which also do nothing to support the community. Weeks or months for special orders to even get placed, carries the most random stuff nobody buys, and no discounts or sales(unless they've been there for decades)

What planet am I on? Where is this place where all the Warmachine players are WAAC jerks, all the 40K players are either superfluff gentlemen who never dispute anything or, conversely, cheesy netlisting basement dwellers who rules-lawyer everything into oblivion, and all the stores in the city are basically gangs fighting over territory and trying to guilt people into buying things from them?

I have literally, literally never encountered any of these things in my 17 years of miniatures gaming in two different cities at five different stores. On the internet? Sure. But IRL? Literally never.


EDIT: Hell, last month I saw the employee of one store playing 40K at another store with some other people playing 40K and some other people playing Warmachine and some other people playing some card game and everyone was having fun and no one was arguing or being a dick to anyone or anything.

I know you're probably just catching back up with the thread RatBot, but we worked hard to get away from the WM vs. 40k and all its undertones in this thread. Can we keep from nosediving back into it ?

Reason being is 1) its never as binary as people make it (there are great people and jerks on both sides), and 2) is a polarizing argument as unless we force ourselves to be hyper objective, we gravitate towards our own experience (anecdote) and our own bias (if we play one game but not the other). If you see my sig you might be tempted to think i'm just a GW shill. I'm not. Check my posts out in this thread. I think WM/H is one of the better / best games on the market, and i used to work for PP.


Fact is that regardless of game, people engage in pack mentality bs all the time, even in gamestores. I've just been really unlucky that until i found my current home, i had the displeasure to see a couple of the regions worst examples.

We are all human and have our own behaviors.
Good thing is, as customers we can exert some influence on a store owner since they want our money.
The other clique behavior in the store by other customers, all you can do is try not to give them any power.
You do not have to listen to the more vocal types, or take them up on being a jerk.
Deal with people on a one on one basis and most times it is good.
I find it terribly amusing when someone tries to tell me what I am to do.
NO, I will do what I feel appropriate, I will support people who mean well and do their best.
Those with a sense of entitlement need to understand they are owed nothing and be happy for what little they have even then.
Anything done as a labor of love is given freely, people looking for their direct payback can take a hike.

 RatBot wrote:
What planet am I on? Where is this place where all the Warmachine players are WAAC jerks, all the 40K players are either superfluff gentlemen who never dispute anything or, conversely, cheesy netlisting basement dwellers who rules-lawyer everything into oblivion, and all the stores in the city are basically gangs fighting over territory and trying to guilt people into buying things from them?

I have literally, literally never encountered any of these things in my 17 years of miniatures gaming in two different cities at five different stores. On the internet? Sure. But IRL? Literally never.


EDIT: Hell, last month I saw the employee of one store playing 40K at another store with some other people playing 40K and some other people playing Warmachine and some other people playing some card game and everyone was having fun and no one was arguing or being a dick to anyone or anything.

Thank you.

Like in life its a spectrum rather than just black or white.

But iv seen examples IRL of everything in the OP so its like it doesn't exist.

Oh, I certainly wasn't trying to churn up the old GW v PP thing, which is why I tried to use the unkind stereotypes I hear bandied about for each game (The WAAC Warmachine player and the netlisting rules lawyer 40K player). I just find a lot of this hard to swallow and I literally wonder where these game stores-cum-street gangs who act like shady drug dealers and mafia extortionists are.


EDIT: all though I did just remember I saw the owner of the biggest FLGS make a passive-aggressive comment in our Warmachine facebook group when someone posted a miniature market deal, but that's about it. Other than that, it seems that he has a pretty good relationship with the event organizers for all the games at the store (WMH, 40K, and various card and board games), and the community in general.


But back on to the original topic: It definitely sounds like there needs to be a civil, mature conversation between at the very least the PGs and the owner, and perhaps some of the players as well.


EDIT EDIT: And certainly there's donkey-caves in all games, and really cool chill people and all games, and gakky stores, and cliques, but there's some really bizarre, sweeping generalizations going on around here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd also think that a store that is so unwelcoming to new people might be eventually become a self-correcting problem, in that such a store is probably not going to be able to exist for too long, but that may just be me being overly optimistic (or pessimistic, I suppose. Depends on how you look at it).

 RatBot wrote:

EDIT: Hell, last month I saw the employee of one store playing 40K at another store with some other people playing 40K and some other people playing Warmachine and some other people playing some card game and everyone was having fun and no one was arguing or being a dick to anyone or anything.

Pics or it didn't happen.