Seperating 40K and the Horus Heresy into seperate forums?

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**insaniak**

ArbitorIan wrote:
2. [30k] is as big a game system (worldwide) as Infinity.

Is it? What data are you basing that on?

**Tactical_Spam**

Do you see a lot of HH players Insaniak? Ive heard its cheaper than 40k in your region

**insaniak**

I've never seen any. But I haven't really been looking for them.

**Tactical_Spam**

hmm... it seems that the steam train of "Imma buy BaC to get a bunch of cheap models then go play HH" is really leaving the station...

**Formosa**

I think it is about time for a 30k subforum, I'd even go so far as to say a fluff, army list and general 30k forum would be warranted, 30k is going to explode in a big way due to the new box set and it makes sense for dakka to be in there ASAP to generate A: revenue as more hits and B: good will among its posters.

**insaniak**

How do you separate 30k fluff from 40k fluff? They're the same setting.

Similar problem with a.'general' section, really. Given that they are essentially the same game, there are going to be an awful lot of crossovers.

**Ghaz**

Formosa wrote:
... 30k is going to explode in a big way...

Except the Dakka policy is ",,, has exploded..." and not "... is going to explode..."

**Tactical_Spam**

You really only need a 30k Army lists and YMDK. everything else is redundant

**insaniak**

I'm not really convinced that a separate YMDC would make any sense either.

How many core rules in 30k are different from 40k?

**Vash108**

insaniak wrote:
I'm not really convinced that a separate YMDC would make any sense either.

How many core rules in 30k are different from 40k?

Maybe 30k tactics? Would be better for legion specific conversations.

**SirDonlad**

I think 'battle reports', 'army lists' and a 'tactics' section would be all i need.
I recon main rules stuff would be nicely handled by the 40k forum.

**ArbitorIan**

insaniak wrote:
ArbitorIan wrote:
2. [30k] is as big a game system (worldwide) as Infinity.

Is it? What data are you basing that on?

None - I'm not stating is as a fact. (Though I don't think it's a totally unfair assumption)

D-USA had stated that [30k] should go through the same process as Infinty. I was showing how, even if we assumde that [30k] had as much potential conversation out there as Infinity, the current policy of folding [30k] in with [40k] actively discouraged conversation about [30k] in a way that Infinity/FoW didn't have to deal with.

**Wyrmalla**

So what's up with just using the existing forums, and should it be relevant, sticking [30K] in the thread's title?

**Alpharius**

This:

ArbitorIan wrote:
kronk wrote:
Stormwall wrote:
I really hope 30k gets a forum, we'll have to spam the 40k area with 30k tags when Calth hits.

Don't spam it. If we post [30k] as needed, the forum will come naturally.

I don't think that's true.

If I'm going to make a post, I'd like some replies. I don't think I'll get that by posting a [30k] tag, watching it drop straight off the frontpage, and hoping the 30k players search for the tag to find threads to comment on. Arguably, that's exactly what people have been doing to date, and we see that while there is a lot of 30k discussion on the web, it doesn't happen here.

I'm more likely to get replies if I post in a 30k board, where 30k players will see it without having to search for it. Dakka doesn't have any of those. :/

Maybe?

Though this:

d-usa wrote:The oldest post on the front page for the following sections:

40K General: 42 hours
40K Background: 9 days
40K Tactics: 5 days
40K Battle Reports: 23 day
40K Proposed Rules: 16 days
40K YMDC: 6 days.
40K Army Lists: 3 days.

The busiest of all the 40K sections is still showing posts that have not received a response in 2 days. If a 30K post doesn't get a response for 2 days and falls off the front page then it doesn't need to be on the front page.

For now 30K will do just fine in the 40K section and won't be drowned out by week old traffic. Tag your threads with [30K] and when the front page is filled with [30K] threads you will see your new sub-forum. Looking at the dates in the 40K sections I would imagine that there will be a lot fever 30K sections, but they will come.

Suggests it might not be that bad, and that tagging posts with [30K] might be an effective way of showing how much interest there is in the game/system/setting/etc.

**d-usa**

But I'm still undecided if Specialist Games could be the way forward...

**ArbitorIan**

Alpharius wrote:
This:
Suggests it might not be that bad, and that tagging posts with [30K] might be an effective way of showing how much interest there is in the game/system/setting/etc.

Looks like we're stuck in a thread loop...?

THIS shows how the refresh rate of the forums compared to the amount of posts a 'smaller game' gets means that, even if the [40k] forums have a week of posts on their first page, that's still deliberately stifling discussion. If we want to see if [30k] has the same amount of discussion as other 'smaller games', that discussion needs to take place in ONE single forum, otherwise no community can grow.

As long as [30k] discussion is spread across the [40k] forums, there will be no significant amount of Heresy discussion on this site.

ArbitorIan wrote:
The point isn't about who has the newest thread - it's about how many pages of stuff you have to wade through to be able to talk about your game system. And the maths aren't as simple as the age of the thread. To explain, let's assume two things:

1. Infinity currently has enough conversation to justify it's forums.
2. [30k] is as big a game system (worldwide) as Infinity.

The oldest thread (by last comment made) on 40k Army Lists is two days old. The oldest thread on Infinity Army Lists and Tactics is FIVE MONTHS old. If we took all the Infinity conversation and made it happen in the 40k forum, you'd get one Infinity thread per page - the content currently on the first page of the Infinity thread would be spread over more than 50 pages of 40k Army Lists (that's how far you have to go back to get to five months ago).

Obviously, this would be really bad to generate Infinity discussion. Why would you bother going to a forum when you know that you have to search through a page of 50 threads just to find ONE thats relevant to you? You wouldn't. So, very little discussion would happen, which means that far fewer threads would be generated in the first place, and we'd decide that Infinity doesn't generate enough discussion to warrant a forum.

Of course, Infinity DIDN'T have to do this. It existed in the Misc. Games forum, which currently has a turnaround time of just over a month. That means one-fifth of all the threads in that forum would have been Infinity - and that's only counting Infinity Army Lists. That's a pretty decent amount to maintain a community and generate conversation. Dakka decides that Infinity is dominating that board, and gives it it's own forums.

The only difference here is what forum you put the posts in.

I think posting [30k] Threads in the GW Specialist Games section would be MUCH closer to what FoW did, or what Infinity did, than splitting it's posts across a bunch of busy forums. We should totally do that.

But to correctly gauge interest in [30k], we'd need to make this clear on the forum headers to avoid confusion, so that the [30k] threads don't get spread all over the place and everyone is aware of where they can get the best response.

**Alpharius**

I thought d-usa's post showed that [30K] tagged posts won't disappear that quickly?

**Paradigm**

I think the argument being made is that, since at first the most we're expecting is a single 30k forum, it ought to be compared to other 'single' fora rather than the busiest, multi-fora area of the site.

As an example, the Mantic subforum (one of the most active ones) has a post dating back to the end of September on the front page, so 30 threads seeing updates in about 3 months. 30k would almost certainly get a much greater volume of posts than that, but if they're going to be split across the 6 40k fora it's never going to gain the momentum it would need for that to be recognised, and thus a new sub-forum created. Unless someone were to monitor the volume of 30k threads in a given time period across all 6 40k fora and compare that to the single forum turnover rate, but that's just complicating things and I wouldn't ask anyone to actually do that.

And I think there is an element of 'build it and they will come' to this as well. Whereas 40k players turn up and see a swathe of discussion boards for their game, a 30k player might similarly notice the lack of such boards for theirs, assume that 30k is not meant to be discussed in these fora, and move on to another site for their 30k discussion. Another way round this would be to just add 'or 30k' to the descriptions of the 40k boards, in the same way that the AoS boards have 'for AoS and Legacy WFB' in there.

**ArbitorIan**

Alpharius wrote:I thought d-usa's post showed that [30K] tagged posts won't disappear that quickly?

Yep, all these are being reposted from one page ago in the wrong order, my point above was in response do d-usa 's post about age of threads, I think both d-usa and I seem to be on the same page now - the the fair comparison would be to put all [30k] threads in one place.

Paradigm wrote:Whereas 40k players turn up and see a swathe of discussion boards for their game, a 30k player might similarly notice the lack of such boards for theirs, assume that 30k is not meant to be discussed in these fora, and move on to another site for their 30k discussion.

Yup, totally agree with your post.

Worse, people will log on to the '40k and 30k lists' forum see 49 40k lists and 1 30k list and decide that this is a terrible place to talk about 30k, so the discussion doesn't even get started.

**Manchu**

d-usa wrote:
If there is not enough interest to keep a [30k] post from dropping straight off the front page, then there isn't really any justification for making a 30k section at all since nobody is talking about it.

Bingo.

ArbitorIan wrote:
Maybe that's the solution - have Dakka clearly state on all 40k forums that 30k belongs in 'Other Games'

Definitely not a good idea. Misc Games is chock full of KS discussion. Best policy is to tag your threads with [30k] so we can move them over to a 30k sub-forum if/when yakface and legoburner decide that's what they want to do.

I don't think a forum-cluster (separate YMDC, Batrep, Background, Lists, etc) is appropriate for this. There would probably only be a single 30k sub-forum focused on the gaming aspect. So background threads would still need to go in the 40k Background section. The new forum should probably be called "30k Gaming" or similar.

But IMO it is still too early to make this decision because we don't know yet what comes after Battle for Calth. I am not convinced a game overwhelmingly based on FW books and models is going to generate enough traffic to warrant its own forum.

**RiTides**

I'm in favor of a (single) separate 30K forum

. Personally hoping it can happen with some other forum maintenance when lego gets to that stuff (and if he wants to do this!). 40K is so popular on this site, I think the response even in this thread shows this subforum would have a lot of activity - more than many of the current subforums on the site!

**ArbitorIan**

Manchu wrote:
d-usa wrote:
If there is not enough interest to keep a [30k] post from dropping straight off the front page, then there isn't really any justification for making a 30k section at all since nobody is talking about it.
Bingo.
ArbitorIan wrote:
Maybe that's the solution - have Dakka clearly state on all 40k forums that 30k belongs in 'Other Games'
Definitely not a good idea. Misc Games is chock full of KS discussion. Best policy is to tag your threads with [30k] so we can move them over to a 30k sub-forum if/when yakface and legoburner decide that's what they want to do.

Dakka - [30k] tags are great and will definitely work!
Me - Lengthy post explaining clearly why that won't actually, mathematically work.
Mods - Hey guys, remember this post from last page - [30k] tags are great and will definitely work!
Me - Remember this from last page - Lengthy post explaining clearly why that won't work.
Mods - [30k] tags are great and will definitely work!

feth it, let's just keep posting 30k threads on the external 30k forums. Dakka clearly isn't interested.

**insaniak**

ArbitorIan wrote:
Dakka clearly isn't interested.

Well, that, or some of us just disagree with you that it won't work.

It's not a matter of not being interested. Just a matter of the best way to actually implement it. You have stated your opinion on that, and it will be considered. But while that's under consideration, what does it hurt to use the tag system to start building interest?

Ultimately, it's up to the community to create enough content to make a new section worthwhile. There's going to be more chance of that new section happening if people start engaging and showing that the content is there.

**RiTides**

ArbitorIan, did you see my post? I think it's a good possibility and we've passed it up the chain (lego, the admin, is the one who could do this, and it's up to him and yak in the end). We'll see if anything comes of it

. I personally hope it works out as I would love to use such a forum!

**Ashiraya**

I agree, single forum for 30k matters please!

**BrookM**

Agreed on just a single forum, that's all we need really. If it happens, I'll be pleased as punch, if not, oh well, we'll keep on trying.

**Manchu**

ArbitorIan wrote:
Dakka clearly isn't interested.

We've come to the end of your useful participation in this conversation.

To reiterate for those paying attention:

Using the [30k] tag is a good idea because it will allow us mods to more easily move 30k threads to a separate 30k sub-forum as/when the admins decide to make one.

**Sol Invictus**

I'll add my 2 cents here...

Dakka used to be my one stop shop, but once I jumped on the Heresy train I noticed that it was a big pain to find 30k threads here. Now you can argue that that simply means there isn't enough interest to justify a 30k subforum but I'm guessing that it is more likely that those looking for 30k stuff have simply moved on to other sites with dedicated 30k boards. That's what I've done. And I must say it is very nice to be able to find all the threads that are of interest to me in one spot without having to do a lot of digging. This is of course just my opinion and experience.

I do find it interesting though that Maelstrom's Edge has it's own forum when it's not even out yet and has less interest than 30k (Since interest is apparently measured by number of topics). Interesting and seemingly more than a little self-serving and hypocritical when taken in context with this topic.

**d-usa**

You will find that a couple of companies that pay, including the company of the owners of this board, have their own sections. That includes On The Lamb and Gangfight Games, and now Maelstrom's Edge.

I don't think it's hypocritical and I guess 30K players can pay for a dedicated sub-forum if they want to.

Until then they can follow the same process as every other game system.

**Sol Invictus**

Interesting... I wasn't aware that companies could pay to have sections for their games.