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Bharring wrote:
Well, considering the substantial increase in firepower and decrease in cost, I'd hope it wasn't strictly worse.

Dreads can go heavy double weapons. They cost a lot less, but give up some CC capability.

My point:

At some point, you're comparing incomparables.

A havoc squad and a wraithlord are not comparable units, as neither are wraithlords and razorbacks or predators.

The wraithlord has the option both to fire scatter lasers at range if you upgrade) AND assault units and attack with S8, AP 2 attacks.

And it doesn't have an armor value. So that's a thing.

Or you could do what most of my opponents do (who aren't Tau or spamming Grav). Just ignore the WK and kill literally everything else. Now instead of saying the Eldar player is "up" by 100 pts, you can say he is "down" by 300, since you needn't worry about the WK. Just position speed bumps infront of it. Ya know, the FREE ones that your army comes with!!

Seriously Scatterbikes die just like Marines (flying super sonic Marines, but still). If you can't kill them, then you also can't kill 99% of all other armies either. If you can't see them due to terrain, play with less terrain.

A Dread with ano AC and a fist+heavy Flamer has moderately less firepower at range, much better close up, and still hits harder in CC. For fewer points.

 Galef wrote:
Or you could do what most of my opponents do (who aren't Tau or spamming Grav). Just ignore the WK and kill literally everything else. Now instead of saying the Eldar player is "up" by 100 pts, you can say he is "down" by 300, since you needn't worry about the WK. Just position speed bumps infront of it. Ya know, the FREE ones that your army comes with!!

Seriously Scatterbikes die just like Marines (flying super sonic Marines, but still). If you can't kill them, then you also can't kill 99% of all other armies either. If you can't see them due to terrain, play with less terrain.

They don't die just like marines, because they engage at much longer distances and they can stay away from your units indefinitely if they are not being used to secure objectives. There aren't that many options for engaging T4 3+ at 36"

The WK moves 12" and assault units and wipes them out. You can ignore it, but you'll be down 3-4 units over the course of the game.

 Galef wrote:
Or you could do what most of my opponents do (who aren't Tau or spamming Grav). Just ignore the WK and kill literally everything else. Now instead of saying the Eldar player is "up" by 100 pts, you can say he is "down" by 300, since you needn't worry about the WK. Just position speed bumps infront of it. Ya know, the FREE ones that your army comes with!!

Ignore the jump GMC with scatter lasers and d weapons?

The jump GMC that can literally just jump over those speed bumps?

That thing?

Seriously Scatterbikes die just like Marines (flying super sonic Marines, but still). If you can't kill them, then you also can't kill 99% of all other armies either. If you can't see them due to terrain, play with less terrain.

No, they don't. Scatter bikes and marines are incomparable. Marines can't jink. Marines don't get jet pack movements in the assault phase. Marines don't have relentless.

17 ppm windriders are a joke. A forteriori for 27 ppm scatter bikes.

Seriously. Feth eldar.

MartEl,
Take another look at the list above.

Could you make a list that could soak that kind of damage and still handle the rest of it?

Windriders should be 19 ppm base and scatterlaser should be a 20 pt upgrade. That would be a fair price for their capabilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
MartEl,
Take another look at the list above.

Could you make a list that could soak that kind of damage and still handle the rest of it?

Can you? Because I can't. BA don't field enough bodies and the shooting is too ineffective because Imperial heavy weapons and their platforms suck ass. Even fast predators are goddamn joke in 7th.

Martel732 wrote:The WK moves 12" and assault units and wipes them out. You can ignore it, but you'll be down 3-4 units over the course of the game.

LOL at 3-4 units.

Over the course of a 5 turn game, a wraithknight can fire:

40 scatter laser shots.

And it can make up to 5 assaults, possibly against multiple targets.

Also, Trad, if a WK with a 5++ shoots anot S D weapon at you, double check the list. It can't do tbat.

Bharring wrote:
MartEl,
Take another look at the list above.

Could you make a list that could soak that kind of damage and still handle the rest of it?

"Martel, c'mon, I'm only taking ONE unit of teleporting grav centurions. Surely, you can soak that kind of damage and still handle the rest of my list?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Also, Trad, if a WK with a 5++ shoots anot S D weapon at you, double check the list. It can't do tbat.

It can't shoot a d-weapon. It can certainly swing one, though.

WK have the double D cannons or the 5++ shield, not both. But T8 W6 and free FNP i s still way too much. Way too much.

The bottom line is that the standard grav gun is just not nearly sufficient, despite being superior to the plasma gun.

Are other armies REALLY that slow? I can't tell you how many games I have had no escape route for my Jetbikes. the board is just not big enough. Marines of all varieties can do this, I have seen it. Daemons can be everywhere on the board for garunteed turn 2 charges of any unti they want. Tau can just shoot them off the table. If you can't corner them by turn 3, then L2P.

Scatterbikes are definitely the best Troop in the game, but they are NOT unbeatable. Even Nids and Orks can beat them, Nids via tons of Dakka and Orks by being too numerous and covering the table.

 Galef wrote:
Are other armies REALLY that slow? I can't tell you how many games I have had no escape route for my Jetbikes. the board is just not big enough. Marines of all varieties can do this, I have seen it. Daemons can be everywhere on the board for garunteed turn 2 charges of any unti they want. Tau can just shoot them off the table. If you can't corner them by turn 3, then L2P.

Scatterbikes are definitely the best Troop in the game, but they are NOT unbeatable. Even Nids and Orks can beat them, Nids via tons of Dakka and Orks by being too numerous and covering the table.

Windriders are faster than goddamn BA. And BA are the fastest chapter there is. Even faster than White Scars.

", but they are NOT unbeatable."

You aren't playing the right Eldar generals, then.

"Marines of all varieties can do this, I"

Maybe with Gladius, but BA can not do this by any stretch of the imagination.

" If you can't corner them by turn 3, then L2P. "

You just dont' get it. I have nothing left to corner WITH by turn 3. Eldar pew-pew is a thing.

There is no combination of BA models that Eldar even bat an eye at, because we lack every good marine unit there is.

 Galef wrote:
Are other armies REALLY that slow? I can't tell you how many games I have had no escape route for my Jetbikes. the board is just not big enough.

Your 17 point jetbikes can move 48 inches in a single turn.

My rhinos can move 18.

Well, for a turn or 2. Once the wraithknights and scatter bikes shoot them to pieces, my marines can move up to 12 inches per turn (with lucky rolls...while forgoing any shooting or charging).

Until they get shot off the table by said scatter bikes.

Marines of all varieties can do this, I have seen it. Daemons can be everywhere on the board for garunteed turn 2 charges of any unti they want. Tau can just shoot them off the table. If you can't corner them by turn 3, then L2P.

Please explain to me how I would corner a jetbike by turn 3 with rhinos.

Scatterbikes are definitely the best Troop in the game, but they are NOT unbeatable. Even Nids and Orks can beat them, Nids via tons of Dakka and Orks by being too numerous and covering the table.

But surely you must be joking.

Each scatter bike gets 4 S6 attacks at BS 4 at 36 inch range.

For a measly 27 points.

What kind of tyrranid and orks lists have you been playing against?

Yeah the WK is cheese. I'm a little surprised that BA can't even handle the list I posted.

But how about this one?

Spirit Seer
1xRangers
2xGuardians+Warlock+BL
1xStorm Guardians + Melta
1xDire Avengers
1xSwooping Hawks
1xEML Vyper
1xWraithguard (Cannons)
1xWraithblades (Swords)
1xBanshees
1xFalcon
2xWraithlord, double BL

Is that list cheese?

Bottom line to the OP

If you don't want to cheese with eldar:

No wraithknights, wraithguard, bikes (of any weapons configuration) or wave serpents.

And no farseers, spiritseers...or any psykers, for that matter.

Not even one.

And even then, whatever else you pick is still likely to be undercosted for what it does.

Feth eldar. Don't buy that codex. It's rage inducing even when you're playing casually.

(This thread has gone heavy into "are SL Windriders and WK". That is not the purpose of this thread.)

 Traditio wrote:
Bottom line to the OP

If you don't want to cheese with eldar:

No wraithknights, wraithguard, bikes (of any weapons configuration) or wave serpents.

Not even one.

And even then, whatever else you pick is still likely to be undercosted for what it does.

Feth eldar. Don't buy that codex. It's rage inducing even when you're playing casually.

Let it go. Take your madness elsewhere.

You are coming from a viewpoint that base marines aren't garbage. So of course you are surprised when the reality that a list made up of base marines (BA) is terrible. We have no cents, no TWC, no access to telepathy, no Wulfen, no Gladius, no biker troops, and a terrible chapter tactic. Everything that makes marines marines is missing with BA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Yeah the WK is cheese. I'm a little surprised that BA can't even handle the list I posted.

But how about this one?

Spirit Seer
1xRangers
2xGuardians+Warlock+BL
1xStorm Guardians + Melta
1xDire Avengers
1xSwooping Hawks
1xEML Vyper
1xWraithguard (Cannons)
1xWraithblades (Swords)
1xBanshees
1xFalcon
2xWraithlord, double BL

Is that list cheese?

No, it's not. But BA would still struggle mightily against it. But that is more on BA being terribad at that point.

The only one of those my Marines use is a decent CT. They do fine in non-cheesy games.

Bharring wrote:
The only one of those my Marines use is a decent CT. They do fine in non-cheesy games.

Don't forget vehicle squadron bonuses, Thunderfire cannons, Stormeagles, stormtalons, 2 W techmarines, land speeder storm (this one REALLY hurts), and chapter masters.

Also don't forget that BA are arguably worse than CSM, because none of our models are as effective as plague marines and helldrakes. Yes, the CSM are more one-dimensional that way, but BA are zero-dimensional in terms of truly effective units. SG and DC are both horribly flawed units.

I suppose I have occasionally fielded a Storm talon. Chapter Masters, though, I do use fairly regularly (fleet based chapter, I like to use Orbital for fluff reasons).

BAs do have it rough. I do think you're overestimating the above list.

Bharring wrote:
I suppose I have occasionally fielded a Storm talon. Chapter Masters, though, I do use fairly regularly (fleet based chapter, I like to use Orbital for fluff reasons).

BAs do have it rough. I do think you're overestimating the above list.

You're going to make sure my heavy flamers never get where they are going, then kill them on foot. The WL can just hang back and then engage my CC units because you know I have to come to you. You don't need WK to pound my CC units into paste. WL work just fine.

And one final point to Galef:

Before you have the gall to tell anyone to "L2P," why don't you play an orks list (with no superheavies or forgeworld)? Then you face a scatterbike and WK spam list.

And tell us how you do.

I'll be sure to have all of my "Git gud" remarks prepared and ready for use.

Why does no one get this: you don't actually have to be faster than the Scatterbikes, that is impossible. What you have to do is be where they want to be and press other units to where they are. You are trying to flush into areas where you units can then shoot or charge them.

I will concede that this tactic is difficult when the Eldar have a WK, because it means getting close to the WK. If anything, Scatterbikes and WKs are not OP when taken alone, it is how they compliment each other that is OP.
And for the record, I am THE Eldar player in my area and I know when to bring a cheesy list and when to tone it down. The biggest problem with Eldar is that newer players don't know the difference and once they start getting a grasp on the rules, they start going overboard, creating a horrible reputation for Eldar players as TFG.

 Traditio wrote:
And one final point to Galef:

Before you have the gall to tell anyone to "L2P," why don't you play an orks list (with no superheavies or forgeworld)? Then you face a scatterbike and WK spam list.

And tell us how you do.

I'll be sure to have all of my "Git gud" remarks prepared and ready for use.

I also play Grey Knighs & Dark Eldar, neither of which are close to top tier. I still do quite well in most of my games with them.

I guess in a way (rudely, I apologize) I am trying to say that I know how to beat Eldar because I play them....a lot. But everytime I try to show people how, all I get it "La la la, I can't hear you! Eldar are OP, la la la". I have tested out my theories, and instructed a few of my opponents what to do. It is often counter to how they "want" to play their army, yet every time it works.

--

It's got 9 Brightlance equivelent shots and 5 Sniper shots. At about 1850, wouldn't a Marine player either hug the middle ground or outshoot the list at range?

 Galef wrote:
Why does no one get this: you don't actually have to be faster than the Scatterbikes, that is impossible. What you have to do is be where they want to be and press other units to where they are. You are trying to flush into areas where you units can then shoot or charge them.

1. They ignore terrain (and intervening models).

2. They can move up to 48 inches per turn (while ignoring terrain and intervening models).

3. Each of them fires 4 S6 shots at BS 4.

What exactly are you expecting my rhinos to do?

And for the record, I am THE Eldar player in my area and I know when to bring a cheesy list and when to tone it down. The biggest problem with Eldar is that newer players don't know the difference and once they start getting a grasp on the rules, they start going overboard, creating a horrible reputation for Eldar players as TFG.

If there's a single WK, bike unit (of any configuration), wraithguard, wave serpent or psyker in your list, you've gone overboard, and my impression is that I've just agreed to a game with TFG.

Traditio do you play on a board without boundaries or something? It's not hard to have enough army presence to create areas where going there will mean taking a lot of fire. Especially when one person has a huge points advantage.

pm713 wrote:
Traditio do you play on a board without boundaries or something? It's not hard to have enough army presence to create areas where going there will mean taking a lot of fire. Especially when one person has a huge points advantage.

Likely he plays with shifting board. One that always changes just so that it's against him. There's always big huge tower for enemy to put in snipers to get LOS to everything while there's no building or anything to hide his own squad.

pm713 wrote:
Traditio do you play on a board without boundaries or something? It's not hard to have enough army presence to create areas where going there will mean taking a lot of fire. Especially when one person has a huge points advantage.

THANK YOU!!!! Finally someone gets it!