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Things I definitively enjoy way too much:

Schadenfreude (towards DP9, not Smilodon_UP),

being correct when anticipating future events.

BrandonKF wrote:
Hey guys, just added the P.A.K. to the folder.

I also wanted to address some of the issues about weapons and the Gears that would get left out as far as their utility.

I am attempting to make it so that all Gears have some utility. One of the good points about Infinity is that, regardless of the weapon system (unless I describe it as anti-personnel and not being useful against armor), you have a 5% chance of causing a Wound automatically with a Critical roll (rolling your BS range exactly).

That means even the lowly Autocannon can Wound a heavy tank.

In addition, one of the things is that many of the weapon systems have EXP. When that happens, if the weapon strikes, it forces 3 Armor saves. Thus, a rocket pod that normally couldn't be that destructive could force upwards of 9 Armor saves on a heavy tank (Chemical, Killionaire, do please correct me if I'm misremembering).

One thing I've added with the new P.A.K. units is the GRELs. I've given them the Fury Frenzy. Meaning that once they cause a Wound, they gain an Impetuous order as described in their personnel stats.

Not all units have it. The tanks, in particular, don't, because I figure these will be powerful enough as-is. But let me know what you think.

-Brandon F.

That is exactly how EXP works. It is rather nasty, but you don't find too many weapons that use more than 1 or 2 shots of EXP.

I got a bunch of my terrain done, and I'm working on the opposing team. Loooots of work to do.

It is interesting that he keeps bringing up not making armies invalid when that "priority" was no where to be seen when FIF came out and completely screwed over plenty of southern players. Whether that is a refreshing change or convienent scapegoat remains to be seen. In any case, Smilodon put alot of effort into trying to incorporate existing models and collections WITHIN the paramaters and restrictions DP9 set ahead of time.

The worst thing is that invalidating lists, in a controlled manner, is the whole point of redoing an army book!
The previous version was so full of random options that game design, balancing or just having a vague idea of what's actually played was impossible.

You need to nerf what's was undercosted, boost what was overcosted, remove the horrors and streamline the options. You can't do any of that without invalidating lists. If you don't do it now, it will just be harder later.

You have to explain it to the players well in advance, so they can prepare, and you do have to try and limit the damage, but there will be damage. The most important thing is to do it right, and to really define the faction/army identity, so that it's less painful the next time.

mrondeau wrote:
The worst thing is that invalidating lists, in a controlled manner, is the whole point of redoing an army book!
The previous version was so full of random options that game design, balancing or just having a vague idea of what's actually played was impossible.

I agree with the conditions that the list to be invalidating must actually need to be invalidated because of rules abuse, unintended interaction, or just plain undercosting... not because someone just felt like making things "different" on a fleeting spur of the moment design idea soon to be abandoned or to forcibly try and sell more models to the players you just screwed over. Both those happened with FIF... what... you're a southern player who spent $20 to buy a blister of sidewinders? I know it used to be a generic upgrade for every league but now it's only usable in groups of 5 for one faction... Sorry.. you can't use them! Vipers? Oh, you play SRA... too bad! Etc. I'm sure Albertorius could entertain us with stories of how the v1.0 FIF pdf affected him as it was worse than my sob story. Northern Mbzk spam would be an example of something that needed changing as long as it still accomodated players who REASONABLY used the mbzk option. I think the pendulum personally swung slightly too far as I disagreed with Smilodon on this issue but I did agree that the days of "any" upgrades to Mbzk had to go.

I think certain rules should've been expected to be invalidated. Like the horribly stupid "MBZKs for Everyone, all the time!" rule. It was dumb at the time it came out, to the point where I can't even fathom what the designer who came up with the rule was thinking. DTHI was another one. Pretty much most of the patch rules.

Invalidating the Sidewinder was stupid. It was a nice little niche model. It was undercosted, I'd totally agree, but it just needed a points adjustment, not a yank from the general purpose squad. (It's actually a pretty decent general purpose model ... if they ever decided to just drop the Jaeger, it would be the best replacement, also looks nice and distinctive when fielded)

From the Drive Thru RPG reviews -

I admit I don't think its ballance with the South book but with constant change you can't expect every army to be balanced if thats the case play south vs south or north vs north if you want a true even match.

Wow. Just...

Wow.

And this is from someone who *LIKED* the book (i.e. they gave it four out of five stars).



THE STUPID! IT BURNSSS!

..

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 warboss wrote:
I agree with the conditions that the list to be invalidating must actually need to be invalidated because of rules abuse, unintended interaction, or just plain undercosting... not because someone just felt like making things "different" on a fleeting spur of the moment design idea soon to be abandoned or to forcibly try and sell more models to the players you just screwed over. Both those happened with FIF... what... you're a southern player who spent $20 to buy a blister of sidewinders? I know it used to be a generic upgrade for every league but now it's only usable in groups of 5 for one faction... Sorry.. you can't use them! Vipers? Oh, you play SRA... too bad! Etc. I'm sure Albertorius could entertain us with stories of how the v1.0 FIF pdf affected him as it was worse than my sob story. Northern Mbzk spam would be an example of something that needed changing as long as it still accomodated players who REASONABLY used the mbzk option. I think the pendulum personally swung slightly too far as I disagreed with Smilodon on this issue but I did agree that the days of "any" upgrades to Mbzk had to go.

Ah, yeah, good times >_>.

I suddenly was not able to field half the minis I had painted for my MILICIA. I would have needed to buy as many new gears, tanks and striders as the remaining viable painted ones to continue playing with that army (not payloads either. Miniatures). And of course, the shelved miniatures didn't fit all in one army either, so I would have to either shelve them permanently or buy whole new armies to play with them.

And just to rub it in, some of the units I was still allowed to field didn't get the Man upgrades that had been applied to every unit all over the board. Because feth you, that's why. How did I DARE to use fun or characterful models.

So yeah, fun times. It prompted me to leave Blitz completely and return to 2nd edition. Never been happier.

 Albertorius wrote:

So yeah, fun times. It prompted me to leave Blitz completely and return to 2nd edition. Never been happier.

Has that helped in getting games going? I don't know how big the local playerbase is for you in Heavy Gear. Did other players make the switch or is it more of a moral stand in response to FIF that doesn't have any practical effect?

 warboss wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

So yeah, fun times. It prompted me to leave Blitz completely and return to 2nd edition. Never been happier.

Has that helped in getting games going? I don't know how big the local playerbase is for you in Heavy Gear. Did other players make the switch or is it more of a moral stand in response to FIF that doesn't have any practical effect?

Well, the ones I play with (which are to my knoledge the only ones who play here) made the switch with me. We've always been of a more RPing inclination anyway, so it was not such a big deal. If I like something from Blitz, I just stat it up.

Eumerin wrote:
From the Drive Thru RPG reviews -

I admit I don't think its ballance with the South book but with constant change you can't expect every army to be balanced if thats the case play south vs south or north vs north if you want a true even match.

Wow. Just...
Wow.
And this is from someone who *LIKED* the book (i.e. they gave it four out of five stars).
THE STUPID! IT BURNSSS!

Yeah, in my experience he has always been like that over the past (4) years since joining up.
Done more, played more, etc etc etc. And that his facts are usually wrong never seems to slow him down either.

(Check out his comments even on someone's Youtube video [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBWuv-Zxr4U ] and then compare them to this from testing.)
Plus, he honestly does feel every model of every Southern army is a Blazing Mamba, Brawler Mamba, or FDL.
And that multiple AGM-toting Northern models should be around in most CGs to counter the overpowered Blitz Jäger because it's so widely available.

 warboss wrote:
It is interesting that he keeps bringing up not making armies invalid when that "priority" was no where to be seen when FIF came out and completely screwed over plenty of southern players.

 Albertorius wrote:
I suddenly was not able to field half the minis I had painted for my MILICIA. I would have needed to buy as many new gears, tanks and striders as the remaining viable painted ones to continue playing with that army (not payloads either. Miniatures). And of course, the shelved miniatures didn't fit all in one army either, so I would have to either shelve them permanently or buy whole new armies to play with them.

And just to rub it in, some of the units I was still allowed to field didn't get the Man upgrades that had been applied to every unit all over the board. Because feth you, that's why. How did I DARE to use fun or characterful models.

I notice the Pod keeps conveniently forgetting that, or even the most recent trouble(s) with the various incarnations of Paxton.

That the Python never got the MAN upgrade, but the Boa did just because of the faction they chose to assign it to, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Especially since the damn silly Gear-Striders keep getting better and better in regards to their stats.


And look what happened in the Pod's cherished v5Future revamp - many of the same models got short shrift again, or disappeared after only being around a year or so from FiF, while the "shiny" Paxton models and Northern Striders are already getting sculpts and re-sculpts.

Typically enough it looks like the faction sub-lists aren't going to happen either according to Dave's over-ambitious schedule, if at all judging from his message.
His comment about "badpod" is also a little strange, as in does he mean anyone who doesn't like the Lynx is bad?

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 Smilodon_UP wrote:

His comment about "badpod"

The comment about "badpod" couldn't possibly be a typo meant to say baTpod. Right?

 solkan wrote:

 Smilodon_UP wrote:

His comment about "badpod"

The comment about "badpod" couldn't possibly be a typo meant to say baTpod. Right?

Let's just say that sometimes there is no way to know ^_^

Speaking of, they just revealed the newest unit for the Black Talons on Facebook!

 Chemical Cutthroat wrote:
Speaking of, they just revealed the newest unit for the Black Talons on Facebook!

Spoiler:

I swore a solemn oath, years ago, never to touch Facebook, and it's DP9, so I have to ask: Are you joking or are they really adding motorcycles ? If they are really adding motorcycles, are they at least for infantry and not for Gears ?

mrondeau wrote:

 Chemical Cutthroat wrote:
Speaking of, they just revealed the newest unit for the Black Talons on Facebook!

Spoiler:

I swore a solemn oath, years ago, never to touch Facebook, and it's DP9, so I have to ask: Are you joking or are they really adding motorcycles ? If they are really adding motorcycles, are they at least for infantry and not for Gears ?

It is apparently part of a Tank Unit, where if the Tank is destroyed, the BatPod deploys from the Tank, and can continue taking actions.

Here's a shot of the Tank.

Must be paxton... they get all the cool stuff (while stealing it from others like the north and batman!).

To gives you an idea of on insane DP9 can be, I'm only 70% certain you(plural) are not serious. And I'm 100% certain that it would happen if one of Robert's favorite asked for it.

mrondeau wrote:
To gives you an idea of on insane DP9 can be, I'm only 70% certain you(plural) are not serious. And I'm 100% certain that it would happen if one of Robert's favorite asked for it.

I promise to stop messing with the Canadian.

...not using Facebook I can respect. But have you seen none of the new Batman movies?! Comeon man!

Of course I have seen them. I also have seen DP9 in action. Cool things that don't fit in the HG universe are exactly what Robert's favorites will want.

I believe Brandon is working on Kaiju for the upcoming RPG. Apparently the CEF has decided to abandon hovertanks and instead focus on bringing really big monsters from other conquered worlds to ravage the Badlands. He'll deny it publicly but that is because he is under NDA.

 solkan wrote:

 Smilodon_UP wrote:
His comment about "badpod"

The comment about "badpod" couldn't possibly be a typo meant to say baTpod. Right?

Considering the (T) key is not adjacent to the (D) key, it's either a very extreme example of a typo or a very telling example of an unnoticed typo.
That post was also made about three hours before his next post, not to mention he is a mod able to edit at any time.

But he did finally take the way out that was offered to him as an explanation.



And regarding the Basilisk, that sure doesn't sound good. There are basically very few reasons for the company with a monopoly over their miniature line to make that decision:
* The mold is becoming unusable due to aging or some other factor such as the master being gone like was noted for the Hunter Para, and the Pod cannot afford to replace it.
* The mold is becoming unusable due to aging or some other factor, and the Pod does not wish to replace it.
* The mold is fine but the Pod no longer desires to keep producing a model they made essential to at least one Southern sub-faction and a [Market Share] swap for another barely a year and a half ago.

Basilisk [7]
Standard --- Peacekeeper GP --- LAC, LRP/24, HG, APGL, VB
(Standard) --- (City Militia, FS, GP, Light Tank, Recon, Strike) --- Allowed ESEG army swap from standard Jäger or Iguana.
[x] Gunner --- Peacekeeper GP --- MAC --- Allowed for ESEG if legal loadout for swapped model.
Striking [x] --- Peacekeeper GP --- LBZK --- Allowed for ESEG if legal loadout for swapped model.
Swamp [x] --- Peacekeeper GP --- Amphibious

But in the end it amounts to the same thing; TPTB have made a decision to remove a model players already own while throwing out the intimation of a half-assed sop for players that have any of those existing models because that model clearly does not belong in the future "vision" DP9 has for their Heavy Gear setting. Gear-Striders, "Rally" models, and doesn't fit in the setting motorcycles are more important even if only a very few purchase them.

And the Basilisk surely won't be the last to go either given the other "officially relegated to an alternate model" miniatures that have appeared so far in the v5Future ruleset.
I guess time will tell which of the Northern models will get a similar treatment.

mrondeau wrote:
To gives you an idea of on insane DP9 can be, I'm only 70% certain you(plural) are not serious. And I'm 100% certain that it would happen if one of Robert's favorite asked for it.

Yeah, folks REALLY need to realize and pay attention to the offhand or sarcastic comments they make here and there, because el presidente treats those as viable ideas to create something he thinks is wanted.

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The hunter para master is gone? I guess I'm set with my 4 in that case... not that I plan on frequently using the squad but good to know. I guess giving the utterly ridiculous Detect 14 stat to the silverscale variant didn't help the base model sales much.

In the end, as long as they have *SOME* sort of rule to support existing players, I don't have a big issue with them permanently discontinuing models from the line that just don't sell. If players want them, there are enough 3rd party sellers sitting on stock for YEARS to satisfy the meagre demand. When I last bought unpopular older sculpt minis online from a noted online seller, I got multiple models in a metal mix that DP9 hadn't used for years in the a sculpt variant that they changed years earlier to reduce mould wear.

Smilodon, I would also note that supporting the FIF build isn't a priority since EVERYTHING blitz is being replaced in a few months.

 warboss wrote:
Smilodon, I would also note that supporting the FIF build isn't a priority since EVERYTHING blitz is being replaced in a few months.

True enough - but beyond the very tiny handful of folks still actively participating in the "open" playtest does anyone really trust in the Pod's competence to make the correct decisions on how to translate over those army lists and not screw everyone completely?

Or decide honestly which miniatures are selling less well than another? Somehow I doubt they will discontinue any of the Gear-Striders even if they sell less overall of them compared to something they don't feel like statting out because it isn't "impressive" enough in pictures or display cases.

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Regardless of how many "veteran" players of HG dislike gear striders, they seem to sell. A fair amount of new players just coming into the game with no knowledge of where it has been for decades seem to like the gear striders and buy them. I'm sure the buffed stats and reduced TV they generally get doesn't hurt as well but each of those $50+ purchases is likely replacing a $22 gear model like a Kodiak or King Cobra or even a $35 strider like the Naga that the player otherwise would have bought which ends up with added $$ in the coffers. I can't stand gear striders personally in terms of fluff (they shouldn't exist outside of paxton!), design (they're generally UGLY models!), and game mechanics (they tend to be low on TV and seemingly prevent existing models like Kodiaks and King Cobras from getting additional needed variants)... but that view point isn't shared seemingly by the younglings. YMMV.

As much as I dislike them, they won't stop making them or discontinue their sales nor should they. I just wish that the gear strider development (at DP9 and on Terra Nova in the fluff) wouldn't completely stifle strider and existing large gear expansion. It's a roundabout argument though as I feel that DP9 doesn't have the money/manpower because they're ignoring a segment of their playerbase but at the same time they feel like they need to make the models that make the most money per unit with their limited time/money. Stuff like Lions and Paxton large gears (can't recall the name at the moment) are coming out but the existing ones have been in stasis since 1998 as dead ends. A king cobra HBzk would have been great but that would step on the "uniqueness" of the drake with the same and god forbid take away that sale so we didn't get one. Kodiak variants aren't possible because DP9 doesn't want to spend the $$ to change the mould/master but it's ok to come out with a much more expensive new model that people can't just convert. On the one hand, it makes sense from a business perspective but only because DP9 has screwed the pooch so often so many times in a row over the years and forced themselves into a deep, dark, dead end corner.

As for the playtest, I wish it well. I don't see myself actively participating as I personally would prefer to use the existing Blitz rules albeit with my Flash addendums. I won't be buying anything (models, rules, whatever) until the final version shakes out in the end and even then I may just dip my toes into the pool with a PDF purchase only when DTRPG has it on sale. It's not a boycott in my case as in the past multiple times due to being screwed over by DP9 (which isn't the case IMO this time around) but rather a simple preference.

In the end, the stand is largely academic as I don't actually get many games in regardless with my first HG game since last Autumn this past weekend.

I was vaguely interested in Heavy Gear..... then I read the angst in this thread and decided against it.

 warboss wrote:
Regardless of how many "veteran" players of HG dislike gear striders, they seem to sell. A fair amount of new players just coming into the game with no knowledge of where it has been for decades seem to like the gear striders and buy them. I'm sure the buffed stats and reduced TV they generally get doesn't hurt as well but each of those $50+ purchases is likely replacing a $22 gear model like a Kodiak or King Cobra or even a $35 strider like the Naga that the player otherwise would have bought which ends up with added $$ in the coffers. I can't stand gear striders personally in terms of fluff (they shouldn't exist outside of paxton!), design (they're generally UGLY models!), and game mechanics (they tend to be low on TV and seemingly prevent existing models like Kodiaks and King Cobras from getting additional needed variants)... but that view point isn't shared seemingly by the younglings. YMMV.

The irony is that the King Cobra and Kodiak used to fill the same niche, but had gakky stats, I wonder how many first time players they permanently lost when the new player fielded their stupidly expensive both monetarily and in-game TV model, to have it basically do little to nothing. And that was through several iterations before they bothered to patch them into some sort of usefulness. (And again, stupid optional patch rules are all sorts of annoying and rife with problems, it certainly doesn't help anyone who buys a book and never goes to the company website for updates)

 Easy E wrote:
I was vaguely interested in Heavy Gear..... then I read the angst in this thread and decided against it.

This is seconded, for sure.

First time I stumbled across this thread I was like, "Oh! Heavy Gear! I remember that! Looks fun."

And then getting into the actual reading of said thread is like a downward spiral of depression, sadness, and frustration.

A lot of that is from people upset by the rules changes, mismanagement, etc. None of which I had any idea about.

That said, there's also folks who like the world and are doing something with it, like Warboss' modified ruleset, and Brandon's Gear-Finity write ups. The company may blow, but the models are cool, and the setting is really interesting. So there's nothing stopping those interested from doing their own thing. Otherwise it is a ton of dead-horse-beating.

Gear-Finity... I like it!