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The problem cav seem to be:
1) Orcs. Too easy to kill for init 2. WS3 and 3+ or 5+/6++ just isn't good enough to survive to swing; along with no way to magically buff to ASF. They just die in droves, before they swing. They either need a points drop to make units of ~15 useful, or they need a boost to armor (2+ for the boys, and 3+/6++ for the savages). Blanket WS4 wouldn't be bad.

2) Brettonians: outside of character bus, half of the cav choice are pretty bad. Again it comes to too many die before they can swing. Unlike empire, they have rather small unit size limits preventing the cav horde that empire can run.

3) Lizardmen Saurus Cav: again, outside of character bus, they just can't get the job done. They hit like 2 saurus warriors, but are priced like 3. Far too expensive to be steadfast. Lances, instead of spears, would make them viable.

On the too good side, I pretty much just rate the monstrous versions. Mostly skull crushers and mournfangs.
I would argue that Black Knights are too good as a character bus; those guys just replenish too fast; but that's more of an issue for the lore of magic than the knights themselves.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The problem cav seem to be:

3) Lizardmen Saurus Cav: again, outside of character bus, they just can't get the job done. They hit like 2 saurus warriors, but are priced like 3. Far too expensive to be steadfast. Lances, instead of spears, would make them viable.

-Matt

Wait, what? Your complaint is that they can only hit at S5, not S6? Against WS3 troops, these guys hit harder than Chaos Knights, thanks to Predatory Fighter and Cold Ones having 2 attacks, and for 10 points less. If anything, their problems lie in low initiative and [sarcasm] only [/sarcasm] a 2+ save, though this is somewhat mitigated by their T4.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The problem cav seem to be:

3) Lizardmen Saurus Cav: again, outside of character bus, they just can't get the job done. They hit like 2 saurus warriors, but are priced like 3. Far too expensive to be steadfast. Lances, instead of spears, would make them viable.

-Matt

Wait, what? Your complaint is that they can only hit at S5, not S6? Against WS3 troops, these guys hit harder than Chaos Knights, thanks to Predatory Fighter and Cold Ones having 2 attacks, and for 10 points less. If anything, their problems lie in low initiative and [sarcasm] only [/sarcasm] a 2+ save, though this is somewhat mitigated by their T4.

Init 2 and 2+ armor, and WS4 is a whole world worse than WS5 Init 5 and 1+ armor. S5 every round, and magical attacks is vastly better than a spear.
Saurus cav also pick up stupidity, and a must pursue rule, while gaining 1 extra attack for every 6 attacks rolled (ie, a unit of 6 effectively gets 14 attacks).
The match up is pretty lopsided. You need 8 charging saurus cav with spear to break even against 5 unmarked knights. If the knight have a mark of khorne of nurgle, the saurus cav is totally hosed, regardless of who charges.
If you are just throwing saurus cav at infantry, you'd be better off using saurus warriors. Saurus die twice as fast as the cav typically, but show up with three times as many guys.

IMO, if the best use for cav is character delivery, than both the cav and the characters should be re-worked. (ie, saurus cowboys too good, cav to crappy.)

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The problem cav seem to be:

3) Lizardmen Saurus Cav: again, outside of character bus, they just can't get the job done. They hit like 2 saurus warriors, but are priced like 3. Far too expensive to be steadfast. Lances, instead of spears, would make them viable.

-Matt

Wait, what? Your complaint is that they can only hit at S5, not S6? Against WS3 troops, these guys hit harder than Chaos Knights, thanks to Predatory Fighter and Cold Ones having 2 attacks, and for 10 points less. If anything, their problems lie in low initiative and [sarcasm] only [/sarcasm] a 2+ save, though this is somewhat mitigated by their T4.

Init 2 and 2+ armor, and WS4 is a whole world worse than WS5 Init 5 and 1+ armor. S5 every round, and magical attacks is vastly better than a spear.
Saurus cav also pick up stupidity, and a must pursue rule, while gaining 1 extra attack for every 6 attacks rolled (ie, a unit of 6 effectively gets 14 attacks).
The match up is pretty lopsided. You need 8 charging saurus cav with spear to break even against 5 unmarked knights. If the knight have a mark of khorne of nurgle, the saurus cav is totally hosed, regardless of who charges.
If you are just throwing saurus cav at infantry, you'd be better off using saurus warriors. Saurus die twice as fast as the cav typically, but show up with three times as many guys.

IMO, if the best use for cav is character delivery, than both the cav and the characters should be re-worked. (ie, saurus cowboys too good, cav to crappy.)

-Matt

Then say this next time (which, you'll note, is largely what I said), instead of lamenting an inability to take lances.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The problem cav seem to be:

3) Lizardmen Saurus Cav: again, outside of character bus, they just can't get the job done. They hit like 2 saurus warriors, but are priced like 3. Far too expensive to be steadfast. Lances, instead of spears, would make them viable.

-Matt

Wait, what? Your complaint is that they can only hit at S5, not S6? Against WS3 troops, these guys hit harder than Chaos Knights, thanks to Predatory Fighter and Cold Ones having 2 attacks, and for 10 points less. If anything, their problems lie in low initiative and [sarcasm] only [/sarcasm] a 2+ save, though this is somewhat mitigated by their T4.

Init 2 and 2+ armor, and WS4 is a whole world worse than WS5 Init 5 and 1+ armor. S5 every round, and magical attacks is vastly better than a spear.
Saurus cav also pick up stupidity, and a must pursue rule, while gaining 1 extra attack for every 6 attacks rolled (ie, a unit of 6 effectively gets 14 attacks).
The match up is pretty lopsided. You need 8 charging saurus cav with spear to break even against 5 unmarked knights. If the knight have a mark of khorne of nurgle, the saurus cav is totally hosed, regardless of who charges.
If you are just throwing saurus cav at infantry, you'd be better off using saurus warriors. Saurus die twice as fast as the cav typically, but show up with three times as many guys.

IMO, if the best use for cav is character delivery, than both the cav and the characters should be re-worked. (ie, saurus cowboys too good, cav to crappy.)

-Matt

Then say this next time (which, you'll note, is largely what I said), instead of lamenting an inability to take lances.

I don't need a whole dissertation every time to explain cav bus. And I wasn't lamenting the inability to take lances, but rather the inability of many types of cav to do anything other than deliver a character.
IMO, cav should be monster hunters. Good armor, speed and immune to stomp makes them pretty good at it. But when said cav shows up at S4 (5 with spear) and init 2, the monsters are often going first and squishing most of the cav before they swing. It's the same problem half of the bret cav has. Swinging last with few expensive models isn't good.



-Matt

What if cavalry got impact hits just like the Ogre charge?

I want my Cav to be a threat to most units on the charge, the ability to break blocks - through not necessarily destroying them if they catch them
But I want spear / poleaxe armed infantry to cause them problems, if infantry were ready for them ie from the front.

MeanGreen wrote:
I want my Cav to be a threat to most units on the charge, the ability to break blocks - through not necessarily destroying them if they catch them
But I want spear / poleaxe armed infantry to cause them problems, if infantry were ready for them ie from the front.

What they need to allow is a pike upgrade for infantry that will simply negate all charge bonuses like defensive stakes that bret infantry get.

I could see cav getting impact hits but NEVER d3 impact hits like ogre charge. But i do think the impact hits should be at the mounts str

So does this mean the Cav Empire army I just started isn't going to work? I like Cav and I want to play Cav, but I don't want to lose every single game. Can a Cav force work even in a semi-competitive environment or should I just put my knights on foot and call them State troopers?

Empire Cav works because they have a 1+ save and can be played in large units with re-rolls to hit

@MeanGreen: I've heard a lot of historical discussions about cavalry's role on the battlefield, and from what I understand, the only large units they were consistantly scattering on the charge were the ones who were poorly trained (i.e. poor Leadership). If they'd been drilled enough to take a charge, it wasn't too hard to let the bulk of the cavalry pass, then pull the knights down once they'd lost momentum.

Of course, then we come to this issue: how historically accurate do we want to be, vs. how much we like the image of Bretonnian knights riding down their foes like the Rohirrim.

@namiel: spears and pikes indeed don't do what they actually did on the field.
Part of this, to me, lies in the issue with weapons all having the same reach in Warhammer. A High Elf is still going to punch that Reiksguard Knight in the nose before he can bring his lance to bear.
Things made more sense in that regard when charging let you strike first.
Then again, a block of Night Goblins getting 40 spears in on a unit of 7 Chaos Knights will still cause less than one wound. So that's not the only issue.

I wish there was more reason to take spears. I mean, they were the most common weapon for so very long for good reason.

Also, Mournfangs do D3 impact hits. Regular Ogres do 1. Pretty sure that was the suggestion.

Regular ogres can potentially do D3 too (11 or 12" rolled on the charge), I think it was meant that Cav should only ever do one, regardless of how far they charge...

Whether it was suggested that cavalry do 1 impact hit, period, or 1 impact hit (D3, if the right dice are rolled), the bottom line is: not constantly D3.

Honestly, I've always found it a bit odd that horses are S3. I get that a man is only S3 when armed with a sword or a spear, but...still. It's a horse.

Warpsolution wrote:
Whether it was suggested that cavalry do 1 impact hit, period, or 1 impact hit (D3, if the right dice are rolled), the bottom line is: not constantly D3.

Honestly, I've always found it a bit odd that horses are S3. I get that a man is only S3 when armed with a sword or a spear, but...still. It's a horse.

Cavalry don't need impact hits. Make them negate steadfast and rank bonuses on the turn they charge, to represent them barrelling through a unit.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
Whether it was suggested that cavalry do 1 impact hit, period, or 1 impact hit (D3, if the right dice are rolled), the bottom line is: not constantly D3.

Honestly, I've always found it a bit odd that horses are S3. I get that a man is only S3 when armed with a sword or a spear, but...still. It's a horse.

Cavalry don't need impact hits. Make them negate steadfast and rank bonuses on the turn they charge, to represent them barreling through a unit.

Then all you need is a unit of 5 Chaos knights to tear down a 100 man steadfast unit. That is a bit far-fetched. I'm all for giving special considerations with regards to cavalry, but let's not create broken MSU cavalry-heavy lists to break death stars.

Then again, the current rules could allow a solo stubborn/unbreakable character to potentially wipe a single large block with an unlucky leadership roll too...

@thedarkavenger: I don't think Cavalry needs impact hits, either. I've seen it suggested multiple times, and I see the logic behind it.

...but I'd rather see that then Cavalry negating steadfast on the charge. That's a HUGE swing in the other direction.
Let each rank count as 2 or something.

@wfr12n: that was 7th edition all over. Units of 5 Chaos Knights ruled the tabletop.

Super-tough characters being able to break large blocks isn't a problem. Because those characters usually cost more than those large blocks. And while the unit might break due to a bad Steadfast role, the character runs that same risk, and is honestly probably making it more often.