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Hello,

I hope some of you at least know my stance about GW policies. I'm not here to talk about that. Let me do a quick recap so any advice can be usefull:

I live in Brazil
I have no group or store to go
I love painting, but never converted anything.
I will buy any game and collect it to be able to play with at least one person.
I would love to have a massive battle game with 2x2 or 3x3.
I love LotR
I dig the High Elves and Warhammer Fantasy setting.
I'm starting my first foray at wargaming now. Never played anything besides boardgames.
I'll be paiting everything I buy. No one to help.
I can spend roughly 250 USD a month on the hobby
If I buy a stinker, chances are I'm stuck with it. There's no one to sell it to, trade it or whatever.
I'll play for fun. Want a more or less balanced game. I'll buy every army so power creep will be determined by my purchases.
I won't play at tournaments. Don't need to keep buying to make army fresh.

well, now that's out of the way. I'm looking at GW site everyday, trying to find a way to play WHF without going bankrupt. I find the model range beautifull. I hear 40K get a lot of fire for the ruleset. Is Fantasy better? or the same problems about balance exist? I could still use the minis in other systems, even if I do not play Warhammer...Unlike with 40K.

I also hear the Hobbit is a good , easier system to learn. But the prices also made me pause. Is it worth it?

Why Finecast is so hated?

I can't recommend any GW game as they are far too expensive and with rules that get in the way more than create fun.

Go for any other game that's out there and you'll have a much better time. You'll also have an easier chance of convincing someone else to join up if they don't have to pay $60 for a codex or $80 for a rulebook.

Edit: And Finecast is universially loathed because it's very brittle. You look at it wrong and something will break. Also, whatever process they use creates air bubbles that will ruin much of the figure's detail. I bought an assault chaplain (Yes, I used chaplains) and a large chunk of its back pack was missing. It was supposed to be cheaper than metal or plastic, but they ended up charging more for it.

Wow. Your list is pretty close to mine, except I don't live in Brazil and I won't allow myself to spend more than $60/month on the hobby.

I use movement trays with one or two models on it instead of twenty when I've played fantasy. That way, I can enjoy the game immediately while building the army up slowly.

I wouldn't advise someone to start a GW game unless they...

1. Like the background and models far more than other background and models on the market.

2. Have an established gaming group that already plays GW games and doesn't want to start a new system.

3. You really want to play large armies in a 28mm sci fi squad based games (opposed to skirmish games, smaller scales than 28mm, etc)

4. Some combination of the above.

I would be hesitant to start The Hobbit simply because I don't think GW are going to be supporting it long term. If you love the models and want to paint them, go for it, but I'd be very concerned that GW will pull the rug from under me.

As far as WHFB vs 40k... I prefer the rules for WHFB, I do tend to prefer 40k armies though, but rules wise I prefer WHFB. But it is all subjective. I find WHFB less unbalanced and less dependent on list building (not that it's not important, just less so than 40k).

Why is finecast so hated? Because the models often have missing details, bubbles which need to be filled, flash and nodules in places that are hard to remove, parts that are warped and need to be unwarped with hot water, the material is brittle when cool but when it heats up it may warp again, and it's really fething expensive.

I truthfully would have a hard time selling 40k if I was fair and honest and explained other systems as well.

I'd personally advise players to go for a Spartan Game, like Firestorm Armada. With Planetfall being released, picking a faction can allow you to play two radically different games for the cost of the GW starter set, rulebook and codex. Not to mention the Spartan Games are far easier to learn and offer more tactical depth, while remaining more engaging throughout the game due to the turn system.

As far as the OP's list goes, I think the combination of Firestorm Armada and/or Planetfall would fill that easily.

I'd actually suggest a historical game - maybe Hail Caesar, or even get hold of a copy of Warhammer Ancients and Armies of Chivalry. That covers everything from just after the crusades (C12 - C13) up to late C15 in just a couple of books. Sure, it's not the newest shiniest ruleset, but it's functional enough, and within each period the army lists are reasonably balanced. Especially late on, when everyone is basically using the same stuff in different clothes.

Then pick a range of minis you like and go nuts.

I'd only recommend GW games if it was the only option - like the local gaming group only plays 40K, or they have friends with armies who won't consider change.
In my view the only good thing about GW games are the popularity - it's the easiest thing to get a game of.

For completely new gamers I'd suggest they look at Bolt Action/Infinity for tactical skirmish games, Malifaux for Fantasy/silly stuff, Flames Of War for a big battle game or X-Wing if you want spaceships. Or all better games for less money.

 Blacksails wrote:
I truthfully would have a hard time selling 40k if I was fair and honest and explained other systems as well.

I'd personally advise players to go for a Spartan Game, like Firestorm Armada. With Planetfall being released, picking a faction can allow you to play two radically different games for the cost of the GW starter set, rulebook and codex. Not to mention the Spartan Games are far easier to learn and offer more tactical depth, while remaining more engaging throughout the game due to the turn system.

As far as the OP's list goes, I think the combination of Firestorm Armada and/or Planetfall would fill that easily.

I recently bought some stuff to start Warmachine. Also bought some units for Infinity, wating for Operation Icestorm now.

I also eyed Spartan Games. Planning to buy into one of them this year as well. Wich one is the best? They should be a nice break after painting a bunch of army men.

I made a list of games I find interesting:

DEADZONE
DREADBALL
MALIFAUX
FLAMES OF WAR
DYSTOPIAN WARS
UNCHARTED SEAS
40K
ARMOURED CLASH
PLANETFALL
GUILDBALL
WARHAMMER

And choose some to start in the next year:

DROPZONE COMMANDER
FIRESTORM ARMADA
WARMAHORDES
HOBBIT
INFINITY
BOLT ACTION
DREADBALL

Warhammer belonged to the second list, but the prices compared to the others are too much. The Hobbit is almost going under too....

It depends, really.

GW's models are extremely expensive and you'll need a lot of them to play, so if you're buying them new and want to paint them all it will be a long and money-consuming process.

On the other hand, the models are really top-notch design-wise and the games they're used in are fun in their own way - most of the people complaining about the rules are people who want these games to be something they're not (i.e. balanced and strategically competitive systems designed for tournament play).

If you come in with a casual mindset and find like-minded people to play with, you will have a lot of fun.

On the other hand, there are lots of other systems out there that will provide the same amount of fun for a lesser amount of money and hobby/painting time. So again it really depends what you're after.

 Acephale wrote:


On the other hand, the models are really top-notch design-wise and the games they're used in are fun in their own way - most of the people complaining about the rules are people who want these games to be something they're not (i.e. good.)

Fixed that for you.

 Acephale wrote:
On the other hand, the models are really top-notch design-wise and the games they're used in are fun in their own way - most of the people complaining about the rules are people who want these games to be something they're not (i.e. balanced and strategically competitive systems designed for tournament play).

I don't want a tournament play game. I just want a game that isn't a chore to follow and at least pretends to be balanced. Balanced well written rules are better for everyone!

Keraun0s wrote:
I also eyed Spartan Games. Planning to buy into one of them this year as well. Wich one is the best? They should be a nice break after painting a bunch of army men.

There is no best. All of their games use the same basic dice system (D6 with exploding 6's, all successes are on a 4+ unless modified otherwise) and general means of causing/tracking damage. The difference is really just the models and universe, as well as some of the more subtle aspects. I'm a big fan of spaceships so I have a soft spot for Firestorm Armada, and consequently am looking forward to Planetfall so I can tie the two together in campaigns.

While I'm not a huge fan of Dystopian Wars from an aesthetics perspective, the new version is apparently really quite solid, and a huge improvement from V1. That's the theme of Spartan lately; their first venture into the market was lukewarm with some mediocre rules and okayish models. They've lately upped their game with V2 of DW and FSA and the difference in quality is leaps and bounds ahead of what it was.

With Spartan, pick your universe and then buy the starter set for the game you want.

Acephale wrote:It depends, really.

the games they're used in are fun in their own way - most of the people complaining about the rules are people who want these games to be something they're not (i.e. balanced and strategically competitive systems designed for tournament play).

If you come in with a casual mindset and find like-minded people to play with, you will have a lot of fun.

Well, its probably pretty easy to dismiss the complaining by just saying the game is 'different'. It conveniently ignores things like the reasons people are complaining and why those complaints would make for a better experience for well, everyone.

Its also pretty easy to tell people to have a casual mindset, which is such a ridiculous statement. Define casual. I'm casual, yet I want a better ruleset.

I think you have to look around your local area. Unless you're happy just to paint, no game is much fun without other players. I'd avoid GW games myself because of the expense, but they are still widely played and popular. Maybe you could look into local RPG groups, as there is 40K roleplaying as well as the usual stuff like D&D which would let you buy a smaller number of more interesting figures to paint.

Absolutely not. Between the financial ruin that getting even a moderately sized force together would bring, the convoluted, clunky rules overly reliant on dice rolls to the point that in-game player decisions have little if any impact on the result, the hideous balance that plagues the games such that bringing what appeals or that is even background-appropriate can lead to inescapable curb-stomping, and the highly questionable (at best) and downright despicable (at worst) legal and professional behaviour of the company, there is little positive offered by GW's games that isn't better covered by a competitor for a vastly reduced cost.

Would I advise anyone to play GW games, sure. I've had fun playing them for nearly 30 years.

I begun playing 1st ed 40k and 3rd ed WHFB and never found them to be complex by the standards of wargaming and ingrasped them well enough as an 11 year old. Both systems are much more simplified now so adults really shouldn't struggle with them. Of course if you are used to 2 sides of a pamphlet board games they could appear more complex so YMMV.

The second point as to huge armies also doesn't ring true to me. I am a firm believer that 40k is best at 1000-1500 points. Why people play bigger forces on a 6' table is beyond me. Smallish forces and max terrain is where 40k is at. Of course over time you will build up bigger armies and want to use them but that's not really a consideration for a newbie.

I've not played the latest WHFB edition but it is ever so popular here with many tournaments almost all of which use the Swedish comp system. I mention this as it restricts the seeming dominence of large units and other toys. Also I see many experienced and regular WHFB players at my club playing 1200, 1500 and 1800 point so again huge armies are no necessity.

Finally I would direct you to Necromunda and Mordheim, all the flavour of the main systems with added elements like experience without model count. These rules can be picked free at gaming.Yaktribe.org

If you'd asked me 5-10 years or so ago, i would have said sure, and in all likelyhood talked up the system a bit.

These days, no.

They do nice models. Some of them are VERY nice models. They are just too fething expensive.

The ruleset badly needs some work. Doesn't help it's a bit schitzo, and they radically change it every release (just about) rather than refining it.

The game has balance issues.


There are quite a few other games out there that are less expensive, better balanced and so forth. The miniatures aren't quite as nice, often, but are far cheaper (generally, not always ) and you don't usually need that many.

The rulesets are often included with the models (Warmachine) , free to download or cheap.

Getting another player to play against can be tough (GW is pretty pervasive) but if you can talk someone inot trying something new it can be great, and that is much easier when the buy in is say 30-60 usd rather than 300-600

Personally I was really happy with the Warmachine 2 player boxed set. We had a ton of fun with that as-is. I've since added a couple models on each side and it still plays nicely.

The WHFB boxed set I purchased (Elves/Skaven) had some cool models and was decent, but when I started looking into adding onto those armies it got so pricey so quickly that I never really took it any further.

40k I couldn't really justify getting someone new into because of the cost. The DA/Chaos boxed set had some great models if you like the DA aesthetic, but the sides weren't balanced and I didn't really find the Chaos army faction to be compelling. I've also been disappointed with the last few 40k boxed sets because they don't provide any terrain or a campaign scenario like they used to.

Well, I'd recommend a few specialist games. Though can they be said to be GW games any more?

Pros: Generally well-written; free to download; community-driven development that at least attempts to swing towards balance and tightness rather than selling more and bigger toys; no frantic buying and rebuying to keep up with new edition metas; more and more people making pretty nice proxy minis.

Cons: Maybe not enough people making enough nice proxy minis; stigma among some gamers (I.e. Frantic rebuyers) about 'dead' games. ("Oh hey, they stopped printing copies of this highly interesting and engrossing book a couple of years ago - better stop reading it and throw it out!")

Which brings me to my pet peeve about 'box set' games. Not to say that most of the ones listed aren't good: I've enjoyed some of them myself. But it still seems... dull to limit your choices to them right at the start, barring an enthusiastic local community. These minis have to be used with these rules, and so on. Granted, some backgrounds and rules limit your choices - how many non-PP warjack proxies are there? - but with more generic settings things can be mixed up a bit. How many people think of using Bolt Action minis for Chain of Command, for instance? (A game I think I'd rather play, personally)

Or to tie in with the original topic a little more, Mantic, as an example. The usual cost-saving thought is to use their fantasy minis with Warhammer rules, but since they're not to everyone's tastes (including mine) I could also suggest using their fantasy rules with Warhammer minis. That, or other fantasy mass-battle rules like Mayhem (my own choice), Legions of Battle, God of Battles, or more. All of those examples have no less tactical savvy or balance than Warhammer; have arguably a lot more; have unit creation rules or easy proxy options to slot in Warhammer minis; and should represent an immediate, significant saving on Warhammer rulebooks. The savings continue as those games also use unit or element basing (allowing you to spread minis around), smaller units, and/or fewer units. The cost of entry that's often used against Warhammer round these parts, drops a bit just by shopping around for rules. The same can be done with 40K. Here's an interesting wee set, IMO...

OP - Shame there is no FLGS or group local to you where you could try before you buy.

You could end up loving 40k/Fantasy/The Hobbit-LOTR - no matter its problems.

It'll be a gamble whatever you choose to get, so in respect to your situation ask questions, check out company websites, fan sites and select something that you at least feel is interesting.

Sadly, GW seems to have dropped the free downloads for their Specialist games (unless they have popped back up and I missed them).

However there are fan versions of some of those games, including the fantasy skirmish game Coreheim.

I... actually prefer an updated version of Mordheim over Coreheim (specifically, I use Option A that showed up on GW's long dead forums...).

But Coreheim is free and still available.

In my opinion Mordheim was the most enjoyable game that GW has ever made.

The Auld Grump

Short answer: No

Long answer: I've been playing this game since 4th edition and seen a lot of people come and go through it. IMHO it was best in the 4th edition and earlier days. What you'll get now is a random assortment of random dice rolls for random everything. I had to nearly break a friend of mine in two (metaphorically, not literally) before he'd buy into the system and that was only as a Christmas present to himself plus pay raise. I wouldn't want to put anyone through that again.

Also seeing a 11 year old at the GW store the other day literally beg his father for 1 daemon HQ model that cost 20$ made me realize that this game has become literally too expensive for me. It left me feeling sick to my stomach listening to the blue shirt up sell this poor kid and his father.

Anyway, if you like the models go for it but reading over your situation i don't think i'd start a 40k or fantasy army without somebody else to play it with.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Sadly, GW seems to have dropped the free downloads for their Specialist games (unless they have popped back up and I missed them).

However there are fan versions of some of those games, including the fantasy skirmish game Coreheim.

I... actually prefer an updated version of Mordheim over Coreheim (specifically, I use Option A that showed up on GW's long dead forums...).

But Coreheim is free and still available.

In my opinion Mordheim was the most enjoyable game that GW has ever made.

The Auld Grump

NetEpic and NetE:A (Epic Armageddon; the game that showed me what a steaming pile 40K was, so I can thank GW for that, at least) can be got at the Tactical Command forums, Inquisitor at The Conclave, Warmaster and Battlefleet Gothic at the Specialist Arms forum... not sure about Necromunda and Blood Bowl, but I'd guess they're not difficult to google, especially given the huge popularity of the latter.

Specifically for the OP, I'd say go for it.
You like the setting and most importantly, you;ve got $250 a month to invest. Start small, and in 6 months, you could have 2 medium sized armies ready to hit the battlefield.

Specifically to your situation and choice of games, I'd say go with WHFB over LoTR. There's some rumblings that the days of LoTR/Hobbit might be limited, and there's even less chance of finding an opponent for LoTR than for WHFB.

For most other newbies I'd say no.

It's just to expensive and too much work. I prefer indie games and minaitures myself, but I'd direct a newbie toward whatever smaller game their local FLGS is playing. Ideally something like Malifuax or Bolt Action, but Warmachine (despite having really expensive models) is an option that can be relatively inexpensive to start.

If they stick with the wargaming hobby and want to take on the task of building and painting a big 28mm army, then they can make that choice themselves.

How many Infinity minis could $250 get you a month?
(starts drooling.)

 swampyturtle wrote:
Short answer: No

Long answer: I've been playing this game since 4th edition and seen a lot of people come and go through it. IMHO it was best in the 4th edition and earlier days. What you'll get now is a random assortment of random dice rolls for random everything. I had to nearly break a friend of mine in two (metaphorically, not literally) before he'd buy into the system and that was only as a Christmas present to himself plus pay raise. I wouldn't want to put anyone through that again.

Also seeing a 11 year old at the GW store the other day literally beg his father for 1 daemon HQ model that cost 20$ made me realize that this game has become literally too expensive for me. It left me feeling sick to my stomach listening to the blue shirt up sell this poor kid and his father.

Anyway, if you like the models go for it but reading over your situation i don't think i'd start a 40k or fantasy army without somebody else to play it with.

The lack of community here kinda holds me back as well. I'll do all the heavy lifting, so I need something that plays nicely, have at least some kind of balance, and is not too expensive.

Maybe I'll stick with Warmachine, Infinity, Dreadball and Firestorm Armada. At least in the next 5-6 months. Too many games to choose...And not enough money

I found some cool Batreps for Warmachine, but can't findo anything about Firestorm Armada or Inifinity.

So, I guess I'll wait at least the 9th edition of Warhammer to begin playing it, if it is any good. My elven army will arise one day...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vermis wrote:
Well, I'd recommend a few specialist games. Though can they be said to be GW games any more?

Pros: Generally well-written; free to download; community-driven development that at least attempts to swing towards balance and tightness rather than selling more and bigger toys; no frantic buying and rebuying to keep up with new edition metas; more and more people making pretty nice proxy minis.

Cons: Maybe not enough people making enough nice proxy minis; stigma among some gamers (I.e. Frantic rebuyers) about 'dead' games. ("Oh hey, they stopped printing copies of this highly interesting and engrossing book a couple of years ago - better stop reading it and throw it out!")

Which brings me to my pet peeve about 'box set' games. Not to say that most of the ones listed aren't good: I've enjoyed some of them myself. But it still seems... dull to limit your choices to them right at the start, barring an enthusiastic local community. These minis have to be used with these rules, and so on. Granted, some backgrounds and rules limit your choices - how many non-PP warjack proxies are there? - but with more generic settings things can be mixed up a bit. How many people think of using Bolt Action minis for Chain of Command, for instance? (A game I think I'd rather play, personally)

Or to tie in with the original topic a little more, Mantic, as an example. The usual cost-saving thought is to use their fantasy minis with Warhammer rules, but since they're not to everyone's tastes (including mine) I could also suggest using their fantasy rules with Warhammer minis. That, or other fantasy mass-battle rules like Mayhem (my own choice), Legions of Battle, God of Battles, or more. All of those examples have no less tactical savvy or balance than Warhammer; have arguably a lot more; have unit creation rules or easy proxy options to slot in Warhammer minis; and should represent an immediate, significant saving on Warhammer rulebooks. The savings continue as those games also use unit or element basing (allowing you to spread minis around), smaller units, and/or fewer units. The cost of entry that's often used against Warhammer round these parts, drops a bit just by shopping around for rules. The same can be done with 40K. Here's an interesting wee set, IMO...

I'm not that big into converting or proxying...Is kinda silly, but I don't think I' would like to play like this:

"Here this elf lord on a dragon, but here he represents an vampire atop an elephant. And this spearmen(elves) are not carrying spears, they got bows. And ignore the shields. on those 3 there. This four beside them have shields, but also have the banner of a thousand grapes, and do not possess the talisman of crying out loud...

......

Hell, this is how 40K and WHF feel like to me.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Acephale wrote:


On the other hand, the models are really top-notch design-wise and the games they're used in are fun in their own way - most of the people complaining about the rules are people who want these games to be something they're not (i.e. good.)

Fixed that for you.

"Good" is a subjective opinion. One could easily argue that the GW games are good at what they attempt to do - provide casual entertainment for people who enjoy the GW models and the Warhammer settings and want to play some relaxed games with their friends.

That's the product GW is selling and they don't pretend it's anything else, but for some reason this doesn't matter; people will still complain about the games being unbalanced and broken and not suitable for tournaments and whatnot, comparing them to Warmahordes or Infinity or other systems that are designed and promoted in a very different way.

GW are doing a lot of things wrong from a business perspective and I hardly appreciate them as a company at all, but they're very open about what they're selling. If you adjust your expectations to that you can still have fun playing WHFB and 40k. But if you pretend that they're really selling something else - balanced games suitable for competitive tournament play for example - you're bound to be very disapointed. However, you can hardly blame GW for that.

I'd expect simpler, clearer rules and cheaper for a 'casual' game.

upon advice from my friend, he suggested i add Heavy Gear into the mix of suggestions. For 130$ your could get a full army plus upgrades to expand your army.

For 270$ you could have two demo armies to play with you and a friend. That way you could expand your armies and have others potentially join in on the fun. War gaming is meant to be social. Having another person to play against is most of the fun.

Keraun0s wrote:
the talisman of crying out loud...

Keraun0s is getting the hang of the hang of the GW hobby pretty quickly!

This talisman with have a place in many of my games from now on.

 Blacksails wrote:

Acephale wrote:It depends, really.

the games they're used in are fun in their own way - most of the people complaining about the rules are people who want these games to be something they're not (i.e. balanced and strategically competitive systems designed for tournament play).

If you come in with a casual mindset and find like-minded people to play with, you will have a lot of fun.

Well, its probably pretty easy to dismiss the complaining by just saying the game is 'different'. It conveniently ignores things like the reasons people are complaining and why those complaints would make for a better experience for well, everyone.

Its also pretty easy to tell people to have a casual mindset, which is such a ridiculous statement. Define casual. I'm casual, yet I want a better ruleset.

It's different from games that explicitly cater to competitive players and tournament play. Does this mean that it's perfect in every way, even at what it tries to do? Of course not. I personally think the GW games would benefit greatly from a total re-making, but since I hardly expect that to happen I don't care too much about it. GW games are incoherent, imbalanced and poorly written, but they can still be fun if you don't take them too seriously.

If I want to play something that's coherent, balanced and well-written, I'll play something else, which is very easy to do nowadays since there are several great games on the market. Complaining that GW aren't producing the game of my dreams will not change anything.

As for casual: to me it's someone who doens't take the game too seriously, who plays with friends rather than at GTs or competitions and who cares more about the setting, models and general "feel" of the game than about its rules and technical balance. I.e. exactly the type of customers GW games are aimed at.