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Massaen wrote: The lychstar is insanely killy every time I see it and mobility is a non issue thanks to night scythes and or obyron/veil.
Its hardly slow - its the same speed as every other infantry unit - it will catch things that try to run away!
Teleporting and Night Scythes are extremely unreliable compared to Deathstars that are just plain fast, such as TWC, Bikes, etc.
Killy against infantry isn't the same as being killy against other Deathstars or LoWs. To do that, you need very high Strength and/or number of attacks.
Lychstar can get that with lots of ICs using Warscythes, bit that's suuuper expensive and we can't do supporting MSU nearly as good as other armies.
Lychstar needs veil or a transport to be reliable. Best use is to contest major objectives such as The Relic and throwing it at major threats that might rampage your army. If you want to use it to catch jet bikes, skimmers or whatever, good luck.
Alright gentlecrons, we've disscussed how to mae a single C'tan work, but I have a new idea. What if we took as many Nightbringer shards as we have elite slots, put them as close to the enemy as possible, and used them as a massive threat and distraction?
Maybe bring one Deceiver shard for maximum deployment efficiency?
Fear is the mind-killer. The little death that leads to total obliteration.
Xafilah wrote: Alright gentlecrons, we've disscussed how to mae a single C'tan work, but I have a new idea. What if we took as many Nightbringer shards as we have elite slots, put them as close to the enemy as possible, and used them as a massive threat and distraction?
Maybe bring one Deceiver shard for maximum deployment efficiency?
Unfortunately , the nightbringer is unique, you'd be better off bringing multiple Orikans
Xafilah wrote: Alright gentlecrons, we've disscussed how to mae a single C'tan work, but I have a new idea. What if we took as many Nightbringer shards as we have elite slots, put them as close to the enemy as possible, and used them as a massive threat and distraction?
Maybe bring one Deceiver shard for maximum deployment efficiency?
Unfortunately , the nightbringer is unique, you'd be better off bringing multiple Orikans
Well then. Scratch that idea.
Fear is the mind-killer. The little death that leads to total obliteration.
Xafilah wrote: Alright gentlecrons, we've disscussed how to mae a single C'tan work, but I have a new idea. What if we took as many Nightbringer shards as we have elite slots, put them as close to the enemy as possible, and used them as a massive threat and distraction?
Maybe bring one Deceiver shard for maximum deployment efficiency?
Unfortunately , the nightbringer is unique, you'd be better off bringing multiple Orikans
There is no reason why you can't take a decurion, take a night bringer, deceiver, and as many c'tan as you can fit in though!
Xafilah wrote: Alright gentlecrons, we've disscussed how to mae a single C'tan work, but I have a new idea. What if we took as many Nightbringer shards as we have elite slots, put them as close to the enemy as possible, and used them as a massive threat and distraction?
Maybe bring one Deceiver shard for maximum deployment efficiency?
Unfortunately , the nightbringer is unique, you'd be better off bringing multiple Orikans
There is no reason why you can't take a decurion, take a night bringer, deceiver, and as many c'tan as you can fit in though!
skoffs wrote: The reason why you wouldn't do that is because it's not a very good idea...
How so? Sure they are expensive but with god shackles on a night bringer, deep striking the transcendents and the deceiver trickery, it could be good for laugh! Even semi competitive pending the powers rolled each turn.
skoffs wrote: The reason why you wouldn't do that is because it's not a very good idea...
How so? Sure they are expensive but with god shackles on a night bringer, deep striking the transcendents and the deceiver trickery, it could be good for laugh! Even semi competitive pending the powers rolled each turn.
Because they're expensive as heck and can be killed by mass small arms fire very easily.
skoffs wrote: The reason why you wouldn't do that is because it's not a very good idea...
How so? Sure they are expensive but with god shackles on a night bringer, deep striking the transcendents and the deceiver trickery, it could be good for laugh! Even semi competitive pending the powers rolled each turn.
Because they're expensive as heck and can be killed by mass small arms fire very easily.
God Shackle any C'tan completely immune to small arms fire. Unless you're counting S5 as small arms, which I don't think works. And even S5 is going to need a lot of shots to do damage, with needing a 6 to wound and then having half disappear. The Conclave of the Burning One just makes it worse by adding in a Feel No Pain roll and a cover save, plus makes the escorting Crypteks T8 as well.
Is it super competitive? Nah, but it is fun. And a lot of opponents will have a hard time handling it too because its not your usual Necron shenanigans.
skoffs wrote: The reason why you wouldn't do that is because it's not a very good idea...
How so? Sure they are expensive but with god shackles on a night bringer, deep striking the transcendents and the deceiver trickery, it could be good for laugh! Even semi competitive pending the powers rolled each turn.
Because they're expensive as heck and can be killed by mass small arms fire very easily.
God Shackle any C'tan completely immune to small arms fire. Unless you're counting S5 as small arms, which I don't think works. And even S5 is going to need a lot of shots to do damage, with needing a 6 to wound and then having half disappear. The Conclave of the Burning One just makes it worse by adding in a Feel No Pain roll and a cover save, plus makes the escorting Crypteks T8 as well.
Is it super competitive? Nah, but it is fun. And a lot of opponents will have a hard time handling it too because its not your usual Necron shenanigans.
You can only shackle one C'tan since it's a Relic, so the rest are at T7, which can (and will) go down to massed Bolters.
There's a reason the Conclave with Shackled Nightbringer is literally the only way that people bring C'tan.
As far as returning to tactics discussion,
If taking a Nightbringer-Conclave, what is that thing's preferred target? (keeping in mind that you roll for power AFTER selecting who you're shooting... what the hell were they thinking)
skoffs wrote: As far as returning to tactics discussion,
If taking a Nightbringer-Conclave, what is that thing's preferred target? (keeping in mind that you roll for power AFTER selecting who you're shooting... what the hell were they thinking)
Generally I use it for clearing MSU. All of the powers are good at clearing out 3+ small squads, especially when combined with the Cryptek shooting and Gaze (preferably on another target, possibly on the same target to finish them off.
On another topic, LVO ends with 3 Necrons in the top 10, which is a bit surprising to me given the general difficulty that we have with Eldar and scoring against things like Battle Company. Of note is the 7th place list, which was a Decurion with Judicator Battalion and a Living Tomb using 1 Monolith. Unfortunately he had no games on stream, which was disappointing (I actually don't think there were any Necron games on stream), but I imagine it was a mostly null deploy list, then using the Praets/Deathmarks/Obelisk/Monolith to Deep Strike and pulling out a Warrior unit or something through the portal for pseudo-Drop Pod tactics.
The 5th place list was a very standard Wraithstar + Destroyer type thing, which I'm sure worked quite well against a lot of stuff.
Overall, ITC missions put a lot of focus on board control and mobility, so these types of lists work well because there's a lot of Deep Strike and teleporting going on. There's also a big focus on null-deploy or near null-deploy lists in the ITC, with the two big Eldar lists really only deploying one or two units and Deep Striking/walking on the rest. Deathmarks do really well against that sort of thing, and we actually have a decent amount of DS units of our own (Destroyers, Praetorians, Deathmarks, Obelisk, Veil of Darkness/Obyron, etc), using Zahndrekh to get rerolls on Reserves. It's quite not bad in the long run, once I assemble my Praets I'll be trying out something like this myself.
I wonder if doing it as a CAD to get some ObSec and flexibility is as good, it seems all the top placers were Decurions. Which makes sense, if your heavy hitters aren't going to be Troops then there's no reason to not go Decurion. But, some missions are won/lost by having ObSec, which can be a bit of a sticking point.
skoffs wrote: You can't go Decurion and CAD in the same list by ITC restrictions, right?
(something about a 2 detachment max but extra restrictions on Decurions)
You can in ITC, each one is a Detachment. Just because the Decurion is made of multiple formations doesn't mean it's more than 1 detachment, so if you wanted to go CAD + Decurion that's viable. It's a bit sticky with the points, of course.
ITC and Adepticon also allow you to self-ally, but I don't know how effective a single unit of Warriors is before getting focus fired to death.
Yeah, I know they're both detachments, but I thought there was some sort of restriction on the formations you could take in the Decurion that would make taking both nonviable.
(what are ITC's rules for formations in the Decurion?)
Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
First thing, Praetorians are really good, and I can't wait to get more of them. I don't think they're too much of an investment, because Stalkers are also good. Granted, you don't want them on the board against more armies, for fear of First Blood, but still.
Also, I disagree. Think about most of the things you fight against. S5/7 spam Tau, S6 spam Eldar, Alpha strike Gladius, ext. Dropping in a Living tomb with a Monolith would actually be a hard counter to most of that, as it comes in after the alpha strike and can help reposition your troops, and S6/7 spam literally can't hurt it.
sure, it's not an optimal choice, but far from garbage if used right.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/08 18:25:07
skoffs wrote:Yeah, I know they're both detachments, but I thought there was some sort of restriction on the formations you could take in the Decurion that would make taking both nonviable.
(what are ITC's rules for formations in the Decurion?)
You can take up to 3 Detachment, with one duplicate. Decurion (and others like it) only count as one no matter how many sub-formations you take. Decurion can take one duplicate sub-formation.
krodarklorr wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
First thing, Praetorians are really good, and I can't wait to get more of them. I don't think they're too much of an investment, because Stalkers are also good. Granted, you don't want them on the board against more armies, for fear of First Blood, but still.
Also, I disagree. Think about most of the things you fight against. S5/7 spam Tau, S6 spam Eldar, Alpha strike Gladius, ext. Dropping in a Living tomb with a Monolith would actually be a hard counter to most of that, as it comes in after the alpha strike and can help reposition your troops, and S6/7 spam literally can't hurt it.
sure, it's not an optimal choice, but far from garbage if used right.
The Monolith is basically a free death. With the prevalence of Knights and Battle Company, every army needs at least a few options for anti-tank built in, otherwise it can't compete. The Monolith will die to that at some point, and the Obelisk probably will as well.
But, what it's very useful here, is dropping in, dragging a unit out of Reserves, and popping down a pie plate before it dies, guaranteed. Even if the unit it pulls out has DS, it places it with no scatter. Great for Praetorians or Destroyers, though Deathmarks still want to DS for Hunters from Hyperspace.
And yes, the more I look at Praets the more I want to build mine. I'm still like 90% positive that Rods should always be taken over Voidblades, but that's neither here nor there.
skoffs wrote:Yeah, I know they're both detachments, but I thought there was some sort of restriction on the formations you could take in the Decurion that would make taking both nonviable.
(what are ITC's rules for formations in the Decurion?)
You can take up to 3 Detachment, with one duplicate. Decurion (and others like it) only count as one no matter how many sub-formations you take. Decurion can take one duplicate sub-formation.
krodarklorr wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
First thing, Praetorians are really good, and I can't wait to get more of them. I don't think they're too much of an investment, because Stalkers are also good. Granted, you don't want them on the board against more armies, for fear of First Blood, but still.
Also, I disagree. Think about most of the things you fight against. S5/7 spam Tau, S6 spam Eldar, Alpha strike Gladius, ext. Dropping in a Living tomb with a Monolith would actually be a hard counter to most of that, as it comes in after the alpha strike and can help reposition your troops, and S6/7 spam literally can't hurt it.
sure, it's not an optimal choice, but far from garbage if used right.
The Monolith is basically a free death. With the prevalence of Knights and Battle Company, every army needs at least a few options for anti-tank built in, otherwise it can't compete. The Monolith will die to that at some point, and the Obelisk probably will as well.
But, what it's very useful here, is dropping in, dragging a unit out of Reserves, and popping down a pie plate before it dies, guaranteed. Even if the unit it pulls out has DS, it places it with no scatter. Great for Praetorians or Destroyers, though Deathmarks still want to DS for Hunters from Hyperspace.
And yes, the more I look at Praets the more I want to build mine. I'm still like 90% positive that Rods should always be taken over Voidblades, but that's neither here nor there.
The Monolith WILL die. You guys disagreed with me about the Ghost Ark earlier? Monoliths are MUCH mess durable for the point cost.
The Obelisk is a little trickier as it can sometimes get a 3++. With that mode...how is it ruled that it works against MC's?
As for Rods vs Blades, we need to look at the math for both.
1. Against GEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
2. Against AEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
3. Against MEQ, Rods are doing more damage, but not by a lot.
4. Against TEQ, Rods are doing more damage.
With regards to shooting, this will be kinda the same, except against MEQ where the Particle Caster is much worse (though it can double out T3), and against AEQ where Rods start ignoring their armor.
However, what about bigger targets? Against the Flyrant you can catch now and then, melee will stay the same whereas with shooting the Rod fares better. With Wraithknights, the shooting with the Rods is better by miles. However, with melee, the Voidblades are the way to go. Voidblades are also significantly better vs vehicles with AV12, and can therefore actually handle walkers. Against AV10, Rods are better.
This is why I think having one squad of each is best for a TAC situation.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
skoffs wrote:Yeah, I know they're both detachments, but I thought there was some sort of restriction on the formations you could take in the Decurion that would make taking both nonviable.
(what are ITC's rules for formations in the Decurion?)
You can take up to 3 Detachment, with one duplicate. Decurion (and others like it) only count as one no matter how many sub-formations you take. Decurion can take one duplicate sub-formation.
krodarklorr wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
First thing, Praetorians are really good, and I can't wait to get more of them. I don't think they're too much of an investment, because Stalkers are also good. Granted, you don't want them on the board against more armies, for fear of First Blood, but still.
Also, I disagree. Think about most of the things you fight against. S5/7 spam Tau, S6 spam Eldar, Alpha strike Gladius, ext. Dropping in a Living tomb with a Monolith would actually be a hard counter to most of that, as it comes in after the alpha strike and can help reposition your troops, and S6/7 spam literally can't hurt it.
sure, it's not an optimal choice, but far from garbage if used right.
The Monolith is basically a free death. With the prevalence of Knights and Battle Company, every army needs at least a few options for anti-tank built in, otherwise it can't compete. The Monolith will die to that at some point, and the Obelisk probably will as well.
But, what it's very useful here, is dropping in, dragging a unit out of Reserves, and popping down a pie plate before it dies, guaranteed. Even if the unit it pulls out has DS, it places it with no scatter. Great for Praetorians or Destroyers, though Deathmarks still want to DS for Hunters from Hyperspace.
And yes, the more I look at Praets the more I want to build mine. I'm still like 90% positive that Rods should always be taken over Voidblades, but that's neither here nor there.
The Monolith WILL die. You guys disagreed with me about the Ghost Ark earlier? Monoliths are MUCH mess durable for the point cost.
The Obelisk is a little trickier as it can sometimes get a 3++. With that mode...how is it ruled that it works against MC's?
As for Rods vs Blades, we need to look at the math for both.
1. Against GEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
2. Against AEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
3. Against MEQ, Rods are doing more damage, but not by a lot.
4. Against TEQ, Rods are doing more damage.
With regards to shooting, this will be kinda the same, except against MEQ where the Particle Caster is much worse (though it can double out T3), and against AEQ where Rods start ignoring their armor.
However, what about bigger targets? Against the Flyrant you can catch now and then, melee will stay the same whereas with shooting the Rod fares better. With Wraithknights, the shooting with the Rods is better by miles. However, with melee, the Voidblades are the way to go. Voidblades are also significantly better vs vehicles with AV12, and can therefore actually handle walkers. Against AV10, Rods are better.
This is why I think having one squad of each is best for a TAC situation.
Obelisk taken in the Living Tomb can never have a 3++. It only gets that when it starts on the table and in powered down mode, but Living Tomb requires it to start in DS reserve.
The thing is, though, you're not looking to take down bigger targets in Assault. If Praets get into assault with anything you mathed out, they're going to die on average. I2 with no Invuln save against a Flyrant, WK, or Walker (especially Knights)? No way bud. Unless you get super lucky, those guys are toast. When you're talking about dealing in a competitive environment, MSU is generally 3+ in small units, which Rods have a better throughput against, in both Range and Assault.
Though I could concede that one of each is better overall. If you go up against summoning, Voidblades take out Daemons much easier due to 5++ not caring about AP value and number of attacks being better, and just having the flexibility. If I had to pick one, I would go Rods 100% of the time, but due to there not being a huge difference and the Battalion making you take two, I agree that having both to flex pick is useful.
skoffs wrote: The other ones I know, but... what's AEQ?
I would imagine Aspect Equivalent, since some aspects (Banshees, Dire Avengers, Hawks) are on a 4+. I've always seen WEQ for Warrior Equivalent, since Necron Warriors and Tau Fire Warriors are 4+.
The Monolith can also pull units from the battlefield to the Eternity Gate. So you can DS your units to strategically bad places to aggressively kill something and then zip back next turn to the Monolith.
Provided it stays alive, it's easy to see the Monolith as a huge advantage in the ITC format. It comes in with precision DS so it's possible you can even get it a cover save from certain angles in the right kind of ruins or give it a sliver of the 12" bubble from a VSG.
15k+
3k+
