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I'm in favor of cards. I think that regardless of where else you post individual unit stats, cards are useful when you're actually playing the game, especially for skirmish games. One of the few things that annoys me about Infinity is that they don't include unit stats in their blister packs. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

If you're concerned about customers being irritated about being "forced" to pay for stat cards (which is ridiculous), maybe you could offer them as a separate purchasable product? Malifaux, for example, has faction decks available, even if they do also include cards with the models.

I don't actually like using cards during games

(and they tend to encourage 'special snowflake' rules proliferations because you don't need to remember them as they are 'on the cards)

but they are a good way to be able to introduce new units without reprinting a rule book so they do have a valid part to play

I agree.

I didn't find having the information on cards in Epic of much use for example though that may in part been because of then damn number of them. Fortunately there was still Rule and Faction reference sheets which I think are much better. I think that was 1st and 2nd editions, later editions dropped the concept.

It's also a bit boardgamey, makes me think of Talisman and the like.

I like the way Malifaux does it.

Starter sets come with the stat cards for each model, plus the masters upgrade cards, maybe an extra upgrade card or two. Unit boxes come with the stat card, and sometimes an upgrade card. The Arsenal decks for each faction include every card for every unit in that wave of releases, plus duplicates of units if they can be taken multiple times, plus every upgrade.

Then there are the rulebooks. The big rulebooks include every single card and upgrade for all factions in that book, and the small rulebook is just the game rules.

This opens up a lot of options as a gamer. Casual people might not want to spend much money on rules, so they might just go with what cards come in boxes and the small rulebook. Some people want to know what else their faction can do, so they might also buy their arsenal decks. Competitive types want to know what every faction can do, so they will likely have the arsenal decks for their faction and the big rulebooks so they can see other factions rules.

At the very worst, people who want to know everything will get some duplicate cards. But if they're for models you're using because you bought them, having duplicates is never a bad thing. Cards get damaged when they get used, it's inevitable.

weeble1000 wrote:But if you are going to have cards, you better darn well make them good cards. Bad cards are the worst. High quality paper, coated, with a core. It is terribly easy to devalue an otherwise high quality product by cheaping out on the printed materials. And if you are going to put all of that effort into designing the cards and paying for artwork, you shouldn't cut corners on the print.

If your game is good and your cards are good, customers will like as not be happy to have them in the product, even if all they do is appreciate your company's dedication to quality.

Guildsman wrote:If you're concerned about customers being irritated about being "forced" to pay for stat cards (which is ridiculous), maybe you could offer them as a separate purchasable product? Malifaux, for example, has faction decks available, even if they do also include cards with the models.

I think these 2 things go hand in hand, if there are going to be cards, I want them to be good quality, in which case if they're included in the boxed set I'm going to feel like I'm being forced to pay extra for them, especially with games that require multiple purchases of the same units. I certainly don't want 10 rules cards from my 10 boxes of Termagants, 2 for Hive Tyrants from my 2 boxes of Hive Tyrants, 3 Carnifex ones for the 3 Carnifex boxes, etc etc. Even for skirmish games you often buy multiples of the same boxes to fill out a force.

I think just having them separate is a better idea. It would also allow more flexibility, if you have some core units with very basic rules you could fit multiple on a single card, while something like a special character or superheavy vehicle with lots of special rules could get its own card.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think these 2 things go hand in hand, if there are going to be cards, I want them to be good quality, in which case if they're included in the boxed set I'm going to feel like I'm being forced to pay extra for them, especially with games that require multiple purchases of the same units. I certainly don't want 10 rules cards from my 10 boxes of Termagants, 2 for Hive Tyrants from my 2 boxes of Hive Tyrants, 3 Carnifex ones for the 3 Carnifex boxes, etc etc. Even for skirmish games you often buy multiples of the same boxes to fill out a force.

I think just having them separate is a better idea. It would also allow more flexibility, if you have some core units with very basic rules you could fit multiple on a single card, while something like a special character or superheavy vehicle with lots of special rules could get its own card.

Having them provided with models, and providing multiples for some models, for a skirmish game like Malifaux or Relic Knights is actually for a reason - they have wound trackers on them. They're also whiteboard marker compatible, so if you don't like sleeves you can still write buff/debuff effects on them and later wipe them off (you should totally have them in sleeves though).

Having a card down for every model on the table just makes it so much easier to track all of the stuff going on in the game without resorting to having 5x the amount of markers as you have models on the table (I'm looking at you, Infinity).

 -Loki- wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think these 2 things go hand in hand, if there are going to be cards, I want them to be good quality, in which case if they're included in the boxed set I'm going to feel like I'm being forced to pay extra for them, especially with games that require multiple purchases of the same units. I certainly don't want 10 rules cards from my 10 boxes of Termagants, 2 for Hive Tyrants from my 2 boxes of Hive Tyrants, 3 Carnifex ones for the 3 Carnifex boxes, etc etc. Even for skirmish games you often buy multiples of the same boxes to fill out a force.

I think just having them separate is a better idea. It would also allow more flexibility, if you have some core units with very basic rules you could fit multiple on a single card, while something like a special character or superheavy vehicle with lots of special rules could get its own card.

Having them provided with models, and providing multiples for some models, for a skirmish game like Malifaux or Relic Knights is actually for a reason - they have wound trackers on them. They're also whiteboard marker compatible, so if you don't like sleeves you can still write buff/debuff effects on them and later wipe them off (you should totally have them in sleeves though).

Having a card down for every model on the table just makes it so much easier to track all of the stuff going on in the game without resorting to having 5x the amount of markers as you have models on the table (I'm looking at you, Infinity).

Oh yeah, when the cards themselves are part of the gameplay that's fine, it makes sense. I thought we were just talking about the more generic sense of having rules on cards for the sake of having rules on cards when it would be equally well served just looking up the rulebooks.

The reason GW can't include stat cards with the models is because things get changed up each edition as game balance is shifted to sell different/new models.

 Breotan wrote:
The reason GW can't include stat cards with the models is because things get changed up each edition as game balance is shifted to sell different/new models.

Because no other games change things between editions amirite

Malifaux had enormous changes between 1.5E and 2E. The cards in 1.5E had twice the content and were folded in half to make little booklets. To replace them, they have been complete rereleased for 2E. It's the equivalent of reissuing an army book. It's not hard.

Actually it's because you would have too many damn cards taking up table space.

It's works fine for board and skirmish games but a full size wargame really wants to have the whole table in use for gameplay.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
The reason GW can't include stat cards with the models is because things get changed up each edition as game balance is shifted to sell different/new models.

Because no other games change things between editions amirite

Malifaux had enormous changes between 1.5E and 2E. The cards in 1.5E had twice the content and were folded in half to make little booklets. To replace them, they have been complete rereleased for 2E. It's the equivalent of reissuing an army book. It's not hard.

So Malifaux repackages everything when the rules change?

To be fair to GW, that's less practical for their situation because the 40k and WHFB ranges are huuuuge and I'd hazard a guess and say the distribution is massively wider as well. They don't want to be recalling boxes to repackage them nor do they want millions of out of date boxes on shelves across the globe both in their own stores and in independent stores.

 Necros wrote:
Kinda funny, here folks want cards. I posted the same post on The Miniatures Page and all the historical guys say hell no

I do think the cards come in handy though, but I guess I was just wondering if a PDF would be more convenient since not everyone needs them. Or maybe, include cards with box sets, but not in blister packs for solo minis, to keep the cost down?

Then they have changed their minds.

Because when I suggested this with an idea for a ready-to-play set of Ancients, Medieval, Renaissance, Pike&Shotte, and Napoleonics era set of games (like I described above), they were all over the idea.

But... The Miniatures Page tends to be flighty, and easily distracted by new things.

MB

So there's this sea of 1st edition Malifaux metal models with 1st edition cards. In order to use them, you have to buy the appropriate Arsenal deck for the cards, or buy the book that has the appropriate card entry and make your own card.

When Privateer Press did the Mk I to Mk II transition, they published decks to update those cards, and I think they offered retailers a card exchange.

Both of those games package the cards for the model with the model. But both of those games are produced by companies who have a business model which DOES NOT rely on radically revamping armies every year to three years.

"Your card is out of date. Go spend $X to get the right card" fairly well defeats the purpose of including the card with the model.

Cards are good Idea, and alot easier to make adjustments for units on GW part, they can put cards with new rules in the new boxes and they can sell card sets for different armies.

I'm not sure if it's worth the packing hassle, but if you've got a webstore you shoild be able to allow the user to choose if they want a stat card or not.

Until I saw this thread, it never occurred to me that anybody might NOT want stat cards, so this has been enlightening. I can see the argument that it's a feel-bad for people to buy a model and get a card that has been outdated by a newer edition since it's printing, but I feel like that's outweighed by the convenience of cards, especially for skirmish games. The 2nd Ed Malifaux cards are a perfect example (and are the size of standard playing cards) and without them I suspect the game would be unplayable.

That goes to the second objection to cards I've read here, which is more compelling, that it might lead designers to overcomplicate their game (which, I love Malifaux, but I think they've been guilty of this). I'm very interested in thinking about this point more.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
The reason GW can't include stat cards with the models is because things get changed up each edition as game balance is shifted to sell different/new models.

Because no other games change things between editions amirite

Malifaux had enormous changes between 1.5E and 2E. The cards in 1.5E had twice the content and were folded in half to make little booklets. To replace them, they have been complete rereleased for 2E. It's the equivalent of reissuing an army book. It's not hard.

So Malifaux repackages everything when the rules change?

To be fair to GW, that's less practical for their situation because the 40k and WHFB ranges are huuuuge and I'd hazard a guess and say the distribution is massively wider as well. They don't want to be recalling boxes to repackage them nor do they want millions of out of date boxes on shelves across the globe both in their own stores and in independent stores.

Yes, though there's only one example - the The Thunder starter was released in 1.5E, and had those cards. When 2E released, they repacked that starter with 2E cards, though there were still old boxes in the wilds that had the 1.5E cards. The other thing they do is faction Arsenal decks, which include the cards and upgrades for everything in a 'wave' of releases. They're extremely cheap, IIRC about $5us. Updating your collections cards for a new edition is as simple as buying the arsenal decks (of which each faction currently has 2), rather than an expensive army book. If you want fluff, it's all in the big rulebook. If you don't, then there's the cheap mini rulebook.

 Necros wrote:
Kinda funny, here folks want cards. I posted the same post on The Miniatures Page and all the historical guys say hell no

TMP is an odd place that occasionally makes a dinosaur dig site look like a happening hang out for those buried there. I'm no spring chicken but some folks who post there don't want a button changed on any mini nor a font size or style let alone the content in games they play, let alone some new fangled tech like cards for miniatures. You should have to refer back to the rulebook and your opsrey color guide instead! If your minis and paint won't leave you with chronic neurologic damage after licking either, you're not a real minis gamer! H(MGS)rumpf...

Historical only gamers put a ton of time, sweat, and effort into making their games look great sometimes at the expense of fun and functionality unfortunately. It's no surprise that the same question would get a different answer on a primarily scifi minis gaming site like this one despite the shared membership (including myself).

Yes!

The trick is, of course, is that it has to be laid out in a useful manner. Poorly-laid out cards are often worse than no card at all.

 -Loki- wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
The reason GW can't include stat cards with the models is because things get changed up each edition as game balance is shifted to sell different/new models.

Because no other games change things between editions amirite

Malifaux had enormous changes between 1.5E and 2E. The cards in 1.5E had twice the content and were folded in half to make little booklets. To replace them, they have been complete rereleased for 2E. It's the equivalent of reissuing an army book. It's not hard.

So Malifaux repackages everything when the rules change?

To be fair to GW, that's less practical for their situation because the 40k and WHFB ranges are huuuuge and I'd hazard a guess and say the distribution is massively wider as well. They don't want to be recalling boxes to repackage them nor do they want millions of out of date boxes on shelves across the globe both in their own stores and in independent stores.

Yes, though there's only one example - the The Thunder starter was released in 1.5E, and had those cards. When 2E released, they repacked that starter with 2E cards, though there were still old boxes in the wilds that had the 1.5E cards. The other thing they do is faction Arsenal decks, which include the cards and upgrades for everything in a 'wave' of releases. They're extremely cheap, IIRC about $5us. Updating your collections cards for a new edition is as simple as buying the arsenal decks (of which each faction currently has 2), rather than an expensive army book. If you want fluff, it's all in the big rulebook. If you don't, then there's the cheap mini rulebook.

Yeah, a lot of it does come down to price. If things are cheap then there are several methods of releasing the rules that are satisfactory. When things cost as much as GW charge and spread over so many publications it does make people more picky about what they would and would not like.

Personally I'd be happy if the army rules were just contained in a small pamphlet for each army. It could be glossy and coloured with tabs for HQ/troops/elites/FA/HS/wargear/weapons/etc. Less annoying than loose cards and less annoying than flipping through an $83AUD hard cover book which is 95% pictures and fluff with only 5% rules.

I guess things like updating the game every year are things that I don't understand (like playing a mass combat game with individually based miniatures), and that would have an effect on stat cards.

But by the same token... Stat cards are not exactly an expensive item, and producing them would cost no more than a few fractions of a cent.

MB

I think stat cards are a bad idea. They lock the game into those cards, and make it difficult for the designers to update the game. Look at X-wing. It makes for a good short term game (everything is in the box), but over a long lifespan it causes more problems that it fixes. And for the love of god, don't go token crazy (like x-wing).

Don't get me wrong, i really enjoy x-wing, but the only way they can improve a poorly balanced ship (like the a-wing or the tie-advanced) is to issue a modified version of that ship that includes an update card you can use with the previous ship. Its a real pain in the butt and hurts the game's long term life span.

GW's wrong about their problem. They shouldn't be so focused on trying to sell more models to individual players, they should be trying to GET MORE PLAYERS. McDonalds didn't get to where they are by selling a ton of burgers to the same five hundred people in the town they started in. They grew the business by finding more customers. That should be GW's goal. They think they're in a tiny pond of customers, and they're trying to catch every fish in the pond. Games like x-wing have proved there's millions of more customers out there, you just have to find a way to pull them into the game. You don't need to be constantly figuring out new ways to sell slightly different pieces of plastic to Paul, if Paul brings his friends Tom, Jim and Harry to the store after you get him hooked.

I like cards as they are a quick reference for the stats of the model instead of having to go straight to the rulebook. In fact I plan on making cards for the games I play.

 argonak wrote:
I think stat cards are a bad idea. They lock the game into those cards, and make it difficult for the designers to update the game. Look at X-wing. It makes for a good short term game (everything is in the box), but over a long lifespan it causes more problems that it fixes. And for the love of god, don't go token crazy (like x-wing).

Don't get me wrong, i really enjoy x-wing, but the only way they can improve a poorly balanced ship (like the a-wing or the tie-advanced) is to issue a modified version of that ship that includes an update card you can use with the previous ship. Its a real pain in the butt and hurts the game's long term life span.

Thats a business decision, not a game design problem. Updating unit with a card just as easy as updating a unit in an army book. If you update a card, you just release the card as a PDF and then start packing new models and decks with the new card. In fact, its often easier - since if there's a book, the book will likely not be updated to reflect the change, so players will then have an additional rule source.

FFG don't release updated cards because that's not their business model. Their business model is to release the new card with a new box - like the Tie Intercptor upgrade in the Raider box. They absolutely could release it outside of that box. They made the business decision not to.

Don't confuse business practices with design limitations.

 argonak wrote:
GW's wrong about their problem. They shouldn't be so focused on trying to sell more models to individual players, they should be trying to GET MORE PLAYERS. McDonalds didn't get to where they are by selling a ton of burgers to the same five hundred people in the town they started in. They grew the business by finding more customers. That should be GW's goal. They think they're in a tiny pond of customers, and they're trying to catch every fish in the pond. Games like x-wing have proved there's millions of more customers out there, you just have to find a way to pull them into the game. You don't need to be constantly figuring out new ways to sell slightly different pieces of plastic to Paul, if Paul brings his friends Tom, Jim and Harry to the store after you get him hooked.

It's not really fair to GW to think of them like a company trying to sell to everyone in their own town, GW put a lot of effort in to growing their games in to a 100 million dollar business. Now they're shrinking and they don't know why and don't have the capacity to fix it. They're still a monstrous company with a wide reach.

I've said it previously but I do think we have to consider the possibility that GW have reached a natural peak and the best they could do is limit their decline but growing like the rest of the industry isn't realistic.

I'm thinking about this as a business owner first, and player second.

Ditch cards in the box. They cost you more money and add nothing to the mark-up on the product (unless they do in your model I.e. The model costs more due to cards).

Put the cards on your web store and sell it for $5 to physically get all the cards. This drives people to your web store, where they are more likely to buy more than just the cards.

Alternatively, make them go to your site and download the PDF as they are now on your website looking at other stuff you sell and paid ads (as another web revenue stream).

I'm sure people thinking like players dislike these ideas. They just want stuff for free, but the art of business is getting other people to use their $ to reduce the risk of losing your $.

 -Loki- wrote:

Yes, though there's only one example - the The Thunder starter was released in 1.5E, and had those cards. When 2E released, they repacked that starter with 2E cards, though there were still old boxes in the wilds that had the 1.5E cards. The other thing they do is faction Arsenal decks, which include the cards and upgrades for everything in a 'wave' of releases. They're extremely cheap, IIRC about $5us. Updating your collections cards for a new edition is as simple as buying the arsenal decks (of which each faction currently has 2), rather than an expensive army book. If you want fluff, it's all in the big rulebook. If you don't, then there's the cheap mini rulebook.

$8 per faction for wave one. $9 per faction for wave two.

But consider the new Malifaux player who walks into a store and sees a shelf of Malifaux figures. You've got these rows of 1st edition metal figures with their 1st edition cards in them, and over on the side is a small stack of Arsenal decks ($8 per faction, per book. Do you know which book your model is in?) Or there's the small stack of 2nd edition plastic boxes that you can buy and avoid all of that hassle, leaving the old stock to sit there and rot. Want to know the address of the store where this happened?

The huge downside of "Put the current edition's cards in the box" is the retailer who buys a shelf of product that ends up with a "Buy the new deck" tax attached to it.

On the other hand, I know Privateer Press had a card exchange program when they went through the transition from Mk I to Mk II, and I know of game stores in my region who either didn't find out about it or decided that ordering replacement cards, opening up blister packs and boxes, and replacing the out of date cards wasn't reasonable.

Now, I'm pretty sure both Privateer Press and Wyrd are doing everything they can afford to do to avoid creating dead stock for retailers. But Imagine GW putting unit cards in a box and sticking to its one-to-two-year edition switch over. If you walk into a store and find some ten year old GW stock, if you like how it looks, you buy it, put it together, and go. You don't have to check the expiration date, or find out which edition the cards are for.