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Hi All,

We are currently working on our new Website sorting photos and compiling a painting list. As many of you may not have seen our miniatures, I have included a photo of some of our WWII Afrika Korps and Ancient Greeks. Hope you like them.

Cheers
John

Are these 28mm?

Whoops, sorry Hordini. Yes they are 28mm

I've been wanting to order some stuff for years, but heard some ...very negative feedback several years ago about unreliability, orders never arriving, no comms and worse. It's what's stopped me from ever ordering from you guys.

I have looked a few times recently, but unfortunately the archaic percentage-based shipping costs mean I'm not willing to buy directly from you. There's no end of UK-based retailers who use the 20% "VAT" to cover shipping over a minimum order, or failing that, refunding the VAT and charging actual costs. It's 2015, though. Percentage-based shipping is very 1980's-1990's, and very much an outdated thing these days.

I buy from Foundry and Warlord all the time, due to their free shipping for orders over 60/80 quid. They also have simple and easy shipping rates for amounts under that (no doubt subsidised by that 20%)

There are certainly a lot of ranges that you have which I'm potentially interested in buying figures from, so it'd be great to see some information that can put those concerns to rest, as well as a presence here (which is always reassuring if it becomes a regular thing, as several other manufacturers do).

You might also want to put a link to the page into your sig.

Please note, this isn't "internet aggro" or anything - it's honest feedback from someone who buys way too many toy soldiers, most of them direct from the UK from many of your contemporaries and competitors as to why you're not amongst them at this point in time.

Thanks, Btdjohnno. I guessed they were 28mm but wasn't sure.

Azazelx, I went to the Black Tree website and it looks like an apology has been posted here.

That apology is for stuff that's happened in the last few weeks. The issues that scared me off were several years ago.

 Azazelx wrote:
That apology is for stuff that's happened in the last few weeks. The issues that scared me off were several years ago.

Ah, alright. Fair enough.

There are a large number of Black Tree models I want to buy, hopefully everything will be sorted.

As someone who lost his father a few years ago after watching his health deteriorate over a number of years previous to a degenerate brain disease, I fully understand the stress and strains this causes, and anyone in the situation has my sympathies.

The bad press about Black Tree is from 5+ years ago. The company has been much more responsive in recent years. I've ordered twice in the past 2-3 years and had no issues.

That's great on one level, but really, I've heard next to nothing about them (positive or negative) since then - so obviously caution still rules.

 Azazelx wrote:
That's great on one level, but really, I've heard next to nothing about them (positive or negative) since then - so obviously caution still rules.

I don't get it then, what's the point of your post? You don't have personal experience ordering from them and all the negative feedback you heard was from third parties posted several year back.... oh, and that they don't do free shipping...?

It's worth noting that BTD US and BTD UK are run as two separate companies.IIRC, all the problems that did occur happened several years back under different owners. As far as I know, the above issues have never occurred with BTD since the new owners took over. I've ordered from them (BTD US) several times over the past 3 years and have had nothing but spectacular service from them. Their store is easy to navigate, orders are dispatched within a few days, and all my items have arrived well packaged. Actually, my last order was packed in a tin storage case that was particularly nice.

As for "hearing next to nothing about them since then" all you have to do is go to TMP and search their customer service threads for "Black Tree" and there are

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=360882
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=366606
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=361089
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=355276
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=354380

So it's not like the information isn't out there, it's just that you've chosen to not look for it and instead come here to trash a company you have no experience with. Sorry, but I think that's pretty much

Thanks for that ancientsociety. I'm convinced!

 Hordini wrote:
Thanks for that ancientsociety. I'm convinced!

Sorry for that, but Azazelx's critique rubbed me the wrong way. I mean, how many times do you see a company publicly acknowledging they screwed up and apologizing? Then to go on and trash that company, when you have no experience ordering from them, is pretty low, IMO.

But, I do stand by their customer service and the quality at the price point. 90% of my Saga Vikings are BTD, 75% of my Saga Normans are BTD, and I have a squad of their WW2 Italians. I actually suggested they expand their Italian range over on WWPD and the owner responded asking what I'd like!

BTD are one of my favourite companies in terms of friendly folks dealing with email communications and orders. I can't comment more broadly on orders and shipping as I'm in the UK, but everyone in this household is a fan.

Not to mention this week, everyone who had ordered from them in the past got a really lovely email explaining what was going on. There's no head in the sand attitude to mistakes, and I can respect that.

Had nothing but good service from black tree. Their periodic sales are always good value, delivery has always been quick.
Now SOME of their models don't always pass muster (sometimes there is a lot of flash in awkward places, but that was maybe 2 or 3 models in the last couple of years) but the vast majority are of good quality.

 ancientsociety wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
That's great on one level, but really, I've heard next to nothing about them (positive or negative) since then - so obviously caution still rules.

I don't get it then, what's the point of your post? You don't have personal experience ordering from them and all the negative feedback you heard was from third parties posted several year back.... oh, and that they don't do free shipping...?

It's worth noting that BTD US and BTD UK are run as two separate companies.IIRC, all the problems that did occur happened several years back under different owners. As far as I know, the above issues have never occurred with BTD since the new owners took over. I've ordered from them (BTD US) several times over the past 3 years and have had nothing but spectacular service from them. Their store is easy to navigate, orders are dispatched within a few days, and all my items have arrived well packaged. Actually, my last order was packed in a tin storage case that was particularly nice.

As for "hearing next to nothing about them since then" all you have to do is go to TMP and search their customer service threads for "Black Tree" and there are

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=360882
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=366606
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=361089
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=355276
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=354380

So it's not like the information isn't out there, it's just that you've chosen to not look for it and instead come here to trash a company you have no experience with. Sorry, but I think that's pretty much

What's the point of my post?
The point is that I haven't heard anything about BTD in years, and that as such, I'm going to approach with caution and ask questions here, where the discussion is happening. The responses that I received from both Buttery and Pete are exactly what you'd expect to see in reply, as opposed to a an angry ranting post in the style of a tantruming child.

Now, I'm not impressed by your whole Internet Tough Guy bit, but the simple facts are that I don't post on TMP, and I'm also not invested enough in BTD to go randomly doing searches for them.

My experience with them has been reading of extremely poor trading behaviour in the past, and on the back of that deciding to give them a miss for the past several years without being too concerned - until the BTD guy posted here, which brought up my "hmmmm...." Now, your response is to be ridiculous and tell me that "all" I need to do is go to one specific wargaming forum (of the many dozens out there) and do a specific search for them... well, that's fething ridiculous. Now if instead of being so defensive/agressive, you could simply have posted that info along with "Actually mate, they're under new management, and they're cool these days - check out this feedback on TMP" <links> then that would have been fine. See the green text? That's how you answer the kind of questions I've been asking without carrying on like an angry clown. Again, just as Buttery and Pete managed to do.

Hm.. you say that BTD US and UK are run as separate companies. So that's again supposed to be common knowledge? Or perhaps I'm supposed to "research" the fact that two identically-named companies that share a core URL somehow aren't simply the same one with a US/UK branch or different prices on their website? What do you think my asking questions is doing here? It begs feedback from people I may somewhat know

It's also worth pointing out that 4 of the 6 threads you linked also discuss the poor service in some form - which is what led me to stay away for years and approach this thread with caution - so the days of their less-than-stellar reputation are very much still "out there" in the back of people's minds. It's great that they have apparently gotten (much) better, but to give me any small amount of gak for being cautious about them given their track record is also fething ridiculous. (hm.. I see a pattern here). Asking questions, as I have done here is actually how these things are overcome and put to rest.

As for my daring to "come here" and post such things? I like the way you've posted that as though this is BTD's own forum and I've just arrived for the first time soley to slag them off. Look mate, I've been here for the past 10 years - And there's little to no discussion on BTD here. Suggesting that I'm making any attempt to "Trash them"? Really? Clearly you haven't seen me trash anyone if you think that's how I trash people or companies. My posts have simply been wondering aloud due to things I've read about their own trading standards, customer service and history. Unless you mean on shipping - nope, again not trashing them but 100% feedback. It's 2015, after all and percentage-based shipping + VAT is a relic that's better disposed of ASAP.

So thank you for the information, but on everything else in your post. Congratulations though, you've gone from my never having actually noticed you at all to ignored in 1.5 posts. That's a new record! Congrats!

OK - time for cooler heads to prevail and make sure that nothing gets personal.

RULE #1 and all that, yeah?

Thanks!

Well, as noted above - I've finished discussing things with that particular gentleman, so there's no worries there.

Well, made an order on 1st of April, was posted on 3rd of April (which is a bank holiday in UK), and received this morning (Monday was also a holiday so postage is slower than usual but nothing to do with Black Tree). Bought a variety of armoured and unarmoured 2nd Crusade Spearmen and a model of Stalin (perhaps to use as a general or objective marker in Bolt Action).

Castings look good, and I got 17 metal minis for approximately £23, plus 10% of if I make another order with 30 days, which I may be tempted to do.

Good stuff, thanks for the report, Roberts.

Hi All,
Thanks for all your posts. Sorry for not replying sooner, I forgot to subscribe, doh! I will try to be brief.

Azazelx - You are quite correct, our shipping charges were outdated. We have just revamped all our shipping charges - low flat rate on small orders and free shipping on larger orders. Big savings for all, especially for you in Australia

You haven't heard much from/about us in years. We've basically been in hibernation. It is my job to get the word out about Black Tree Design.

Our history will follow us, that is inevitable. BTD did indeed go thru a crap period. I will make sure we never return to the 'Dark Times'.

Thanks for all the kind words from you all. If you have any questions or would like more info, please feel free to contact me anythime

Cheers
John
btdjohnno@blacktreedesign.com
http://www.blacktreedesign.com