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Hey all,

I have recently come into a small amount of cash and I have so many ideas floating around my head, such as...
True scale space wolves

Normal scale Scythes of the Emperor or Imperial Fist

An Ork army (maybe a Kan Wall)

and I had started on a Catachan themed Air Cav army.

I have close to 40 Catachans painted up and I need a few more to finish the basic army I have thought about, which would be:

CCS w/4 Meltas

5xMelta Vets w/shotguns

then the rest of the points would be put into Valkyries and Vendettas (6 in all)

Soooo...how has Air Cav fared? What has been your experiences both playing with and against such an army? What tactics make the list work and what makes it fall flat?

Thank you for your imput before I go blow my cash on Valkyries

Not had any first hand experience with it myself, but from what I've heard from my FLGS and the internets is that Air Cav are an excellent 'Alpha Strike' army. This basically means that when they roll onto the board they will hit exceptionally hard, but whatever they hit they need to kill outright as they are very vulnerable to return fire.

Essentially you'll do an absoloute TON of damage the turn you fly onto the board, but maxmising said damage is essential as you won't take a lot of punishment back.

I'd swap a few meltas for plasmaguns. 15 meltas plus Vendettas is slight overkill, and leaves you lacking if you face Terminator/MANz heavy armies.

Other Dakka-ites will be much better informed than me, and so in a better position to help you, but thats what I've managed to glean so far.

L. Wrex

Seen it in action a few times and is pretty overrated. If you could hide the valkyrie easier I would be more afraid. As is people just tend to fly around flat out too scared to get shot down and end up doing nothing.

Just like the same players that decide to go all drop pods and found out it was great at killing scared players, but anyone that is worth there salt can handle.

They look really cool if you can do it right. I think the Catachan Command Squad has a cowboy hat...

Ok so far one favorable vote and one not favorable...so what other thoughts are there on the subject? What have you guys seen work and what haven't you?

In my own experience Vendetta's are a superb unit especially being able to outflank. I've often found it good to add an Astropath to my HQ which helps in bringing most of them in at once and allowing me to re-roll the table edge dice. In a recent game I was able to take out a friend of mine's entire XV88 team with 3 shield drones in one go. Granted I think I got lucky on wounding, but he wasn't too thrilled either way. As for using Valkyries as actual carriers I've found it to be black or white. On the positive side you can move a squad of melta vets flat out 24 inches closer to an enemy territory or a squad of plasma vets to a capture point the first turn and receive your cover save. I've never used grav-chute insertion due to the high probability of losing the entire unit. As for negatives, they tend to be easy targets regardless of moving them flat out because if you fail your cover save you better hope your opponent rolls poorly to hit your front and side armor. I've had a squad of melta-vets shot out of the sky before I could drop them off, which immediately got assaulted because I brought them too close to the enemy. I think your best bet is to only use them to drop off troops at capture points as taking troops to the enemy will usually have some disastrous results. Especially since we're talking guard here. The last place you want to be is within assault range. And honestly, use your vendettas for the tank-hunting. Melta weapons are great, but that 12inch range can be a liability, which is why I agree with Lycaeus. I'd utilize plasma vets (with demolitions if you're worried about them facing off on armor) instead. But due to the fragility of the Valkyries I've found it beneficial to support them with heavy tanks. Take a Leman Russ BT, Demolisher, or executioner if you have the points. They are durable and will definitely draw most of the enemy fire away from your Valks.

So as for going all out air cav, I see the benefits in capture and control. But for annihilation I would question its usefulness. Personally, I usually take only vendettas and transport my vets in chimeras next to their babysitters (i.e. Leman Russ BT, Demo, etc.) At least it's worked well so far.

I'm building it, also.

I've been playing mech Eldar for some time. I'm going to run along the same lines I run Eldar.

Peek at my list and compare.

Air Cav is weak, don't waste your money. They had some respectable Alpha Strike potential when astropaths stacked and you had really good odds of arriving all at once, but not so much any more.

Think about it: you are putting T3 Sv5+ models in rapid fire/assault range and usually without cover. At the same time, you're putting 260+ point squadrons of VERY large models in melta range (so it's real easy to chain melta hits on models that may be physically out of range entirely). And with only one Astropath, you're doing so in a piecemeal fashion.

If you positively MUST run air cav, take Straken and 2 melta-vet squads, and spend the rest on Sisters of Battle. They hit infantry a lot harder, have power armor (that could be invuln), and between Counter Assault and Might of the Emperor are relatively respectable in close combat.

I don't have the points off the top of my head, but I ran something like this (worked pretty well if I got the first turn and didn't have to rely on reserve rolls, but still not tournament-winning):

Canoness w/ Eviscerator, Brazier of Holy Fire, Book, Litanies of Faith (maybe Cloak?)
^10 Celestians w/ meltagun, heavy flamer

Straken w/ Medic, Vox, 2x meltas, Astropath, 2x bodyguards, Carapace

2x Veteran Squad with 3 meltaguns, demolitions, vox
2x 12-strong Sisters of Battle w/ meltagun, heavy flamer (Vet Sisters w/ brazier, book, power sword and meltabombs)

2x Vendettas
2x Vendettas
2x Valkyries

Each squadron carried a matched pair of Straken/Canoness, or Veterans/Sisters.

Air Cav has been a thorn in my side for going on 4 months now. I play a new nidzilla list, and the IG players at my FLGS have no fear about starting the game with the flyers on the table as they send 6+ lascannon shots my way each turn. If i had any long-range anti-tank (read: longer than 24") I would probably fare better, I'm currently adding hive guard to my list (1 more to go).

So it depends on who you most often play against. don't waste points on valkyries, vendettas have way more punch and in a pinch you can load them up w/ vets and take/contest objectives on the last turn (24" turbo boost ftw, lol)


-tetris

I run an air cav list...successfully. The army works well in the current metagame. Also something I trying to break the current 40K cummunity of is the use of the term Valkyrie. Yes it's the base model, but the unit is vastly inferior to the Vendetta, so get used to using Vendetta because that's the only one of the two a compitent player will field.

The current meta-game has evolved heavily into Meltaguns and Power Fists that form a near exclusive core for most armies ability to take down armor. Your average opponent has a few token Anit-armor threats at range, but they're easily out-shot in a duel with Vendettas. With this in mind, even the fairly average AV12 while mounted on a fast skimmer can be exceptionally difficult for most armies to take down. While you may get a glimpse of this hole in the meta-game using vanilla IG, all Vendettas exacerbate the problem pretty dramatically not only by outshooting long range threats, but by outrunning many short range ones.

The army loves 1st turn, but it isn't stricly a requirement if you know what you're doing. Also an inquisitor with emperor's tarot can give you a buff. The special Alpha Strike the army is capable of unleashing is without question what my mech opponents have come to dread the most. Vet squads multicharging all of their transports with meltabombs in turn 1 might as well hang up a sign that says GG. Anything that escapes the meltabombs is swiftly dropped by Vendettas meaning that mech army you were facing now isn't mech. Opponents can deploy infantryi n front of vehicles to block your charge, but he's giving you the creamy center of his transports (what you wanted to kill anyways), so even the threat of the Alpha Strike can give you a strong edge.

one thing people repeatedly miss about this list though is that the Vendettas do enough damage and are flexible enough on their own to devastate units, so the bulk of your infantry can have a beer in their transports all game and you'll still be dropping units in the process. Another big aspect often missed is the Heavy Bolters on Vendettas. A squadron of 2 Vendettas is shootng 6 TLLC shots and 12 HB shots a turn at a given target meaning even against infantry it does enough wounds that they don't last more than 2 shooting phases unless you're talking hordes.

Last but not least, DONT OUTFLANK. Vendettas murder stuff, it's what they do and most armies don't have the ranged anti-armor to do anything credible in turn 1 anyways. Start on the table in every mission, but Dawn of War and even then come in on turn 1 moving flat out. You might have some fancy idea, but it will fail miserably. You're missing too many shooting phases and making your army come in piecemeal for a some token shooting.

Air Cav is a solid list and has distinct advanrtages over vanilla mech guard, but is less forgiving. The flipside is that there aren't many "correct" ways to do it. Demolitions is a must, without demo charges you don't have the hitting power you need in the infantry. Vendettas with Heavy Bolters all around is a must as well because you only have 3 FA slots and if all of them aren't positively brutal in the shooting phase you simply don't have the punch. Inquisitor with the emperor's tarot is pretty high on the list as well, because having and not having first turns are very different games.

i completely agree with what Mastershake said. especialy, don't outflank. you waste at least a turn of shooting with the Vendetta in reserve.

Mastershake wrote:

The current meta-game has evolved heavily into Meltaguns and Power Fists that form a near exclusive core for most armies ability to take down armor. Your average opponent has a few token Anit-armor threats at range, but they're easily out-shot in a duel with Vendettas.

So your FLGS doesn't have that guy who plays space wolves and has 12 missile launchers? Hitting on 3s, glancing on 4s, standing in cover.

Vendettas are a great investment to incorporate into IG lists, but I find all air-cav armies aren't as effective.

I dislike all-air-cav but I never leave home without 3 Vendettas in my list. Their versatility and offensive firepower is simply remarkable.

sourclams wrote:I dislike all-air-cav but I never leave home without 3 Vendettas in my list. Their versatility and offensive firepower is simply remarkable.

Listen to this guy hehe

2-3 are the max you ever are going to need.

tetrisphreak wrote:
So it depends on who you most often play against. don't waste points on valkyries, vendettas have way more punch and in a pinch you can load them up w/ vets and take/contest objectives on the last turn (24" turbo boost ftw, lol)

Except that's against the rules. You can't embark on a vehicle that is going to turbo boost that turn. Turbo boosting precludes you from doing anything else that turn, whether it happens before or after the movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Flavius Infernus wrote:
So your FLGS doesn't have that guy who plays space wolves and has 12 missile launchers? Hitting on 3s, glancing on 4s, standing in cover.

Indeed. In the stores I frequent, the "meta" has evolved to accommodate dealing with multiple AV11-12 vehicles at range. Blood Angels' armor spam will force the meta even further in that direction.

So your FLGS doesn't have that guy who plays space wolves and has 12 missile launchers? Hitting on 3s, glancing on 4s, standing in cover.

FLGS? I trust you mean the group I routinely play with that encompasses a healthy cross-section from different stores and players that compete in and win national events. Yes we have space wolves, yes they have Long Fangs, yes I've beat them, repeatedly. 18 power armored marines that can threat my army from more than 12" away and I have 54 shots a turn out to 36". What part of this seems at all improbable? Vendettas beat long fangs in duels, at least they have every time I've run it.

Never ceases to amuse what weaknesses people percieve a list they've never played or seen played has.

18 Long Fangs = 12 hits = 2 glances, 4 pens = approx. 5 Vendettas neutralized and one damaged per turn. Only 4 will be neutralized if you're not running squadrons, but if you're not running squadrons you don't have 4 Vendettas in the first place. This also assumes that the enemy didn't bring any other heavy weapons.

In my experience, Vendettas routinely die on turn 1-2 in tournament games against armies with any sort of serious long range firepower.

All vendettas in an air cav army also leaves it seriously vulnerable to horde armies and unlike Eldar, you can't tank shock your opponents off objectives.

Most IG players in my experience run a couple valks/vendettas along with the rest of their army and these usually function as a more mobile harassment detachment that needs to be dealt with lest their shenanigans be successful. Haven't given me too much trouble so far with my horde Orks, as the lootas usually deal with them. Valks do much better against my army though, with their ability to hammer my lootas and other support troops.

If I'm not going first or if there is a viable long range threat like hordes of Long Fangs, I reserve my Vendettas. They require more finesse to use well, relative to other units like 10 TH/SS Terminators, but I don't think I've ever fought a battle where they've failed to make meaningful impact in my favor.

HQ
CCS w/4 Melta's - 90pts

Troops:
2x10 vets, 3 plasma - 230pts
2x10 vets, 3 meltas - 200pts

Fast Attack:
5xVendettas/Valkyries (still not sure if I should have any Valkyries in there for anti-horde) - 650pts

this right now is 1170pts which would leave me 330pts

so I could:

1) Put in 2 Leman Russ MBT's and 30pts to flesh out a unit or two?

2) 2 small Storm Trooper units (5 men each w/meltas)

or

3) Something else? Maybe upgrade the Leman Russ' to another version? Demolisher? Plasma chasis (I forgot the name)

What sounds like to the most viable option?

I want to steer clear of mixing Sisters of Battle in, I see where you are coming from Terminus but I really don't want to go out and buy a bunch of Sisters of Battle just to have my army invalid if/when GW redoes Sisters/Grey Knights/the inquisition

Thoughts??

Ahh *subscribe to thread , i have same question to whether to assemble the last vende or not

Seems okay.

I don't play aircav personally, but I know most people that do take a 2:1 Vendetta:Valkyrie ratio. Yeah, you're lacking in anti-horde a little - a popular thing to do is take veterans with 3 flamers and a demo charge (demo charge can still take out MEQ/Termies and the meltabombs let you wreak havoc on vehicles with a first turn charge).

With 330 points, I'd take an Astropath (in case you end up needing to reserve everything against an opponent with lots of ranged anti-tank). The last 300 can either go towards another Valkyie and Veteran Squad (or CCS) or maybe try (this is pure theory on my part, again I don't play Aircav) an Al'Rahem Platoon with 3 chimeras so that your opponent has more AV12 targets in his deployment zone that have to be dealt with.

Fetterkey wrote:18 Long Fangs = 12 hits = 2 glances, 4 pens = approx. 5 Vendettas neutralized and one damaged per turn. Only 4 will be neutralized if you're not running squadrons, but if you're not running squadrons you don't have 4 Vendettas in the first place. This also assumes that the enemy didn't bring any other heavy weapons.

In my experience, Vendettas routinely die on turn 1-2 in tournament games against armies with any sort of serious long range firepower.

Vendettas should get to fire at the Long Fangs before the Long Fangs get to fire at the Vendettas. And considering they can hover in the back targeting the mechanized elements of the SW army that are moving towards them, Long Fangs should never even get a shot at them unless you suck. So your experience is just of IG players sucking.

They could have relentless and cover save though.
Still advantage over vendetta

Seriously? That's your argument? Long Fangs don't have Relentless unless they are being led by Logan, who costs more than a Land Raider.

4 Vendettas > 5 relentless missile launchers and an overpriced melee beatstick.

But since we're going ridiculous, I guess my response is, "Oh Oh, but I also brought a deathstrike and just rolled a 6 to launch, 6 for radius, and scored a direct hit and killed the entire SW army! Advantage Vendetta!"

terminus wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:18 Long Fangs = 12 hits = 2 glances, 4 pens = approx. 5 Vendettas neutralized and one damaged per turn. Only 4 will be neutralized if you're not running squadrons, but if you're not running squadrons you don't have 4 Vendettas in the first place. This also assumes that the enemy didn't bring any other heavy weapons.

In my experience, Vendettas routinely die on turn 1-2 in tournament games against armies with any sort of serious long range firepower.

Vendettas should get to fire at the Long Fangs before the Long Fangs get to fire at the Vendettas. And considering they can hover in the back targeting the mechanized elements of the SW army that are moving towards them, Long Fangs should never even get a shot at them unless you suck. So your experience is just of IG players sucking.

I find that this is not the case, but Vendettas have little to no effect against Long Fangs anyway, so it doesn't matter if they get the first shot. One Vendetta can generally expect to kill slightly less than 1 Long Fang per turn. If you take heavy bolters, that goes up to about 1.5, assuming you're within 36 inches with clear firing lines. You might be able to kill one useful model. However, if you're within 36 inches, the rest of the SW army will probably be in range of you. The huge Vendetta model means you will never have cover unless you turbo, so that's out. That same huge model means it is very difficult to deploy out of range. Many players also boost Vendettas forward to disembark troops in an alpha strike attack-- in my experience, such attacks are death sentences for both the Vendetta and the squad it disembarks, and they're only really valuable if you manage to take out an LR or similar high-points vehicle in the initial blitz.

Vendettas are good, but they aren't the be-all end-all. Armies with strong long range shooting can kill or cripple them quite easily. My experience indicates that all Vendettas in an IG army will usually be crippled or killed in the first two turns of enemy shooting, given lists with strong long-range shooting presence. Taking Vendettas in squadrons makes this problem significantly worse. I'd stick to 3 Vendettas as a maximum, and find that 2 Vendetta/1 Valkyrie is often more effective.

terminus wrote:Seriously? That's your argument? Long Fangs don't have Relentless unless they are being led by Logan, who costs more than a Land Raider.

4 Vendettas > 5 relentless missile launchers and an overpriced melee beatstick.

But since we're going ridiculous, I guess my response is, "Oh Oh, but I also brought a deathstrike and just rolled a 6 to launch, 6 for radius, and scored a direct hit and killed the entire SW army! Advantage Vendetta!"

And no , once Logan walks the long fang into location with range available + cover for them,
he is free to do w/e he feels like after.


No offense but i have no interest in "arguing" about this lmao
and you know , a civilized discussion doesnt need extra drama tones.


Just a reminder :')

All Air Calv has a few key weaknesses. Mainly the squadron limitations. Immoblized = destroyed really hurts squadrons especially when they are huge Valkyrie Vendettas which can not get cover saves unless they move fast and do not fire. With only 3 fast attack slots thus 3 squadrons can only shoot at 3 targets and can only be in 3 places at once when trying to take objectives. Also Valkyrie squadrons are can be very difficult to play with on tables with above average terrain coverage. Pesky difficult terrain checks and difficult to maneuver.

A hybrid list with 2-3 Valkyrie Vendettas and rest Chimeras and Manticores or other heavies is probably the way to go since you avoid all the weakness of going all air calv yet still have Valkyrie Vendettas.

Major recommendation is to magnetize the weapons so can make both Valkyrie with Multi Laser and Missle Pods and Valkyrie Vendetta with 3 TL las cannons. Gives you options.

Fetterkey wrote:Many players also boost Vendettas forward to disembark troops in an alpha strike attack-- in my experience, such attacks are death sentences for both the Vendetta and the squad it disembarks, and they're only really valuable if you manage to take out an LR or similar high-points vehicle in the initial blitz.

Vendettas are good, but they aren't the be-all end-all. Armies with strong long range shooting can kill or cripple them quite easily. My experience indicates that all Vendettas in an IG army will usually be crippled or killed in the first two turns of enemy shooting, given lists with strong long-range shooting presence. Taking Vendettas in squadrons makes this problem significantly worse.

We're actually in agreement; if you take a glance at my first post in this thread, I'm not a fan of air cav lists precisely for this reason. I just don't think they go belly up as easy as you say, if given the alpha strike they need to function. With my particular variation, there would be no Long Fangs left as they'd be getting hit by demo charges and rending bolters & flamers, with the Vendettas targeting the vehicles.

But yes, this:

I'd stick to 3 Vendettas as a maximum, and find that 2 Vendetta/1 Valkyrie is often more effective.

... is actually my preference for using these things. Plus, transporting three is hard enough without screwing around with six+ of them. Even if it was super badass effective, it's an extremely expensive army that very much a one trick pony, more so than probably any other list in 40K. You either get the first turn and utterly crush the enemy before they can even catch their breath, or you flub your alpha strike or roll to go first and experience the same yourself. It's hardly worth setting up a table and deploying for a game that's all but decided 15 minutes into it.

LunaHound wrote:=and you know , a civilized discussion doesnt need extra drama tones.

Just a reminder :')

Aw, but drama tones are fuuuuuunnnnnn.