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1500p feels a bit tight to run a proper reserve list, but this is my attempt. Slightly influenced by what models I actually have, and slightly by the fact that my first opponent will prob be SW.

HQ:
HT, 2x twin devourers, hive commander, wings 315p

Elite:
3x Zoanthropes in mycetic spore 220p

5x Ymgarls 115p


Troops:
20x Gaunts w devourers in a mycetic spore 240p

5x warriors w 4 deathspitters and 1 Barbed strangler in a mycetic spore 220p

6x Genestealers 6x toxin sacs, 1 upgraded to Broodlord and given scything talons 150p

7x Genestealers 7x toxin sacs 119p

20x hormagants 120p
(outflanking from the HT)

grand total 1499p

Any suggestions? Should I convert my warriors to shrikes?

I'd avoid The Shrikes, They haven't done well for me.

I would suggest putting Toxin Sacs on the Hormaguants though, it allows them to take down anything, with the 4+ poisoned.

I know your tight for points though.

I myself am a big fan of RC Ravaners, if you haven't tried them out, I suggest you might do that for fun in one of your lists some time.

YMMV, and good luck against JOTWW!

Thank you for the suggestions. I'll consider the raveners, I've actually got some models for them. If I weren't so short on synapse I'd consider swapping out my tyranid warriors. I seem to remember doing math that points to spinefists being good value for raveners, since I really hate being left sitting in the open wihtout something to shoot when I deepstrike. On the other hand, I am going to want to run to spread out if there are blast weapons nearby...

for example: 5x raveners with RC and spinefists. 200p
Shooting marines: 20 shots, 15 hits, 5 wounds, 1.67 killed. Not very impressive compared to equal number of devilgaunts, but if the target is longfangs it could be useful. Or maybe upgrade to deathspitters to have a go at rear armors, wich is what I was planning to do with my warriors anyhow. Those would also cause 1.67 wounds on marines for a slight increase in cost. I'll think a bit more about it.

Toxin hormies have been in previous lists. They are good, but against marines the regular ones are nearly as good, and after the unit has taken 5 casualties the unbuffed ones are better. I might consider upgrading them to prepare for MCs or such things.

You know, this list is pretty immune to jotww. Nothing with I lower than 4 and my expensive/important model oly fails on a six. That makes me feel all safe and fuzzy inside :-)

The only thing I'd question is the devourers on your termies. That's 240 points in a very fragile unit that can be rendered ineffective with one enemy squad shooting. I tend to use vanilla termies either to screen more powerful ones, or to hold objectives away from the main enemy force.

I think a better option would be to scrap those devourers (and possibly the spore) and spend those 100-140 points on something like:

a) Another vanilla termie brood to swamp objectives
b) A lictor to improve deepstrike accuracy and arrival speed for the rest of your army
c) More hormies, stealers or warriors

If you were to use Raveners, I'd take them with just RC. Since they are beasts, they have fleet and a 12" assault range, so they are awesome at getting there, quickly.

I've found it's better to just run mine up, and they are usually in Combat by turn two, without any issues.

I may try running them with deathspitters sometime too, might be worth a shot, but usually if I'm in range to shoot, I'm in range to charge if I run.

I cannot see those ymgarl stealers lasting long at all once deployed.

Your tyrant won't get any cover and will get shot to pieces. I've found a gargoyle swarm to be good as a bullet shield.

My thoughts...

HQ:
HT, 2x twin devourers, hive commander, wings 315p

- Complete Win, 12 shots rerollable. Yes please.

Elite:
3x Zoanthropes in mycetic spore 220p

- Again complete win, Lance plus Synapse = Awesome.

5x Ymgarls 115p

- Heard amazing things about these, can be one hit wonders though.

Troops:
20x Gaunts w devourers in a mycetic spore 240p

- Total awesomeness. 60 shots. omg, bring the pain. Although gettng all 20 in LOS and in range is going to be tricky, maybe reduce this down to 15.

5x warriors w 4 deathspitters and 1 Barbed strangler in a mycetic spore 220p
- Not a lover of Warriors at all. - Personally I would take a Tervigon as a troop choice and hold it in reserve.

6x Genestealers 6x toxin sacs, 1 upgraded to Broodlord and given scything talons 150p

7x Genestealers 7x toxin sacs 119p

- Genestealers are to be feared. The only problems I have with this list is the lack of a Swarmlord to use in conjunction with he Outflankers, re-rolling the table edge ensures near enough that you end up on the sde you want.

20x hormagants 120p
(outflanking from the HT)
- Can be hit and miss. Sometimes one hit wonders to. Might end up on incorrect side charging something you didnt want to due to being out of Synapse. Personally I would take another unit of dropeed in Gants with Devourers.

grand total 1499p

Good points all around. I'll explain the reasoning for my devilgaunts: Assaulting spacewolves defending cover hurts really bad. The ability to shoot things when I deepstrike is really useful to carve out a foothold. However, I agree with you that it might not be the best spent points, I just have a hard time finding something that would do a similar job better. A dakka fex in spod maybe? It will prob kill more marines, be more effective against armor and survive longer (unless jotww and forceweapons). Or the gargoyles. 16 with toxin and adrenal glands ones will be cover for my HT and will hurt on the charge, total cost of 128p.

I don't like the lictor for reserve/deepstrike help. If it comes available at turn 2, it only changes my third turn reserves from 2+ to automatic, and only thrid turn deepstrikes can use it's pheromone trail. I think that's rather unimpressive, at least with a small force like this.

You are right about raveners, running them it is. It's just a slight shame to have to deploy anything on the board :-) Maybe outflank them... And deathspitters do detatch from their purpose. Spinefists have the added bonus of only being able to shoot things that I don't need a fleet move to charge, but probably not worth the points.

I expect the Ymgarls to die in my enemys first shooting phase. Unless I am sneaky and choose +1T and assault something suitably large and tough with them, and have luck with the rolls... I have to do some math to see what results can be expected from what enemies. I will primarily use them to take out something that is very dangerous to me, or of great tactical value.

So a slightly adjusted army would look something like:

HQ:
HT, 2x twin devourers, hive commander, wings 315p

Elite:
3x Zoanthropes in mycetic spore 220p

5x Ymgarls 115p

Troops:
5x warriors w 4 deathspitters and 1 Barbed strangler in a mycetic spore 220p

6x Genestealers 6x toxin sacs, 1 upgraded to Broodlord and given scything talons 150p

8x Genestealers 8x toxin sacs 136p

10x Termagants 50p

FA:
5x Raveners with RC 175p

16x Gargoyles with toxin and adrenal glands 128p

Grand total: 1497p

Termagants just start in normal reserve and walk onto the table and hugan objective in cover. Raveners may be outflanked, but doesn't really need to.
How does this look?

Edit: and having read L0rdf1ends post as well: Maybe an outflanking tervigon is a good replacement for the warriors?
Something like:
Tervigon, catalyst, adrenal glands, toxin sacs for 195p. Add crushing claws or buff another unit by 25p. Or run it naked and add even more to some other unit.

And I'll have to playtest those devilgaunts. They are alluring. I've concluded that 4 devilgaunts shooting kill on average one marine. So 16 of them have a very good likelyhood to cause a morale check at ld -1. For marines with ATSKNF it's not huge. Two units of 15 in two spods sum up to 380p. A significant part of my army, but it averages one disabled marine unit at touchdown (or 7.5 -1 glances on armor 10). Such units also have very nice synergies with the outflanking tervigon.

I preffered you first list lol. If you want to start the Flyrant on the table and give him some survivablity I would give him a Tyrant Guard, Oherwise I prefer your first list with maybe the adjustments I mentioned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tervigon as a troop choice is very effective, it can outflank if you wish, or you can hold it in reserve to sit on the home objective, very good at holding objectives so with this option you have a few different options for different matchups and mission types.

Hehe :-) So a L0rdF1end-friendly list would look something like:

HQ:
HT, 2x twin devourers, hive commander, wings 285p

Elite:
3x Zoanthropes in mycetic spore 220p

5x Ymgarls 115p

Troops:
15x Gaunts w devourers in a mycetic spore 190p

15x Gaunts w devourers in a mycetic spore 190p

7x Genestealers 7x toxin sacs 119p

7x Genestealers 7x toxin sacs 119p

1x Tervigon, toxin, adrenal, catalyst 195p (possibly outflank)

Fast attack:
11x gargoyles 66p

grand total 1499

This feels solid and nice. Loads of hurt on landing. Possibly three outflanking units so the lack of edge reroll won't hurt that bad. Something is bound to come on the right edge...

If you want to start the Flyrant on the table and give him some survivablity I would give him a Tyrant Guard

If you give the flyrant tyrant guard then it cannot move 12" - kind of counter productive with the wings, yes?

Give gargoyle swarm instead for cover save.

Very true Mercer Gargoyles would work better providing a cover save. Maybe thats what you can spend your remaining 50 points on. Need to free up a few additional points from somewhere for 10 of them at least. I'd take these guys naked to, auto wounds on 6's anyways.

On your Tervigon, for a troop choice i would suggest keeping him naked apart from adding catalyst which has its uses giving FNP to your dropped gants, as some survivablity FNP to what ever might be in range.

HT, 2x twin devourers, hive commander, wings 315p
170 +60 + 15 + 15 + 25 = 285

So I count your list to be a total of 1419 unless im miss-remembering point costs.

If I go second I can use the guard as ablative wounds to survive the first round of shooting, and then leave that unit. However, we play the rules so that the reserve bonus applies even when the tyrant is off table. And I plan to deepstrike the HT and will try to do so at one end of my opponents battleline. So I won't bring a guard.

If I actually managed to calculate things properly, such as adding pointsvalues of my tervigons upgrades, then I would see that I have points left for a 10 strong gargoyle unit to screen my HT.

I'll edit the last list with this change now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, L0rdF1end, you are absolutely right... I did fail at math. And I've actually spent several years of my life working as a math teacher *facepalm* Oh well :-)

Then I can afford catalyst on my tervigon, and the 10 strong gargoyles, with on ly 4p over. I think. I'll edit the list again and check my math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And finally, I noticed that I had undercosted my devilgaunt units by 20p each. I switched the broodlord for 2 normal stealers to afford. I like broodlords, but they cost a lot of points. Now I think the list is at least mathematically solid. It still looks useful on the gaming table.

L0rdF1end wrote:Very true Mercer Gargoyles would work better providing a cover save. Maybe thats what you can spend your remaining 50 points on. Need to free up a few additional points from somewhere for 10 of them at least. I'd take these guys naked to, auto wounds on 6's anyways.

On your Tervigon, for a troop choice i would suggest keeping him naked apart from adding catalyst which has its uses giving FNP to your dropped gants, as some survivablity FNP to what ever might be in range.

HT, 2x twin devourers, hive commander, wings 315p
170 +60 + 15 + 15 + 25 = 285

So I count your list to be a total of 1419 unless im miss-remembering point costs.

Totally would do. I used to run them with upgrades but now I don't bother and would rather have more of them as a bullet shield. My flyrant has old adversary so they re-roll to hit anyway. And let's face it gargs aren't a c.c unit; though the bio morphs can make them into one.

Old adversary and blinding venom sounds as a useful combo.

I like having toxin and adr glands on my tervigon. It makes gaunts eat marines in assault, and this list contains a fair bit of gaunts. I might be a tad overenthusiastic as to how gathered I can deploy my units. I'll just have to play a game or two and see...

Yes, it works well. If you have the points toxin sacs are good. That means re-roll to hit, wound on a 6 when hitting and re-roll to wound against targets T4 or below, thuogh you do need furious charge for that. This makes the gargs 8 points each instead of 6 points, not bad eh?

You're Tyrant is 30 less that you're paying for it, it is only 285 points as you'v listed (170+60+15+15+25). But it needs at least 1 preferably 2 other MCs to make it viable or it will just get blown away the turn it arrives.

Lictors won't increase the speed of your armies deployment by any meaningful amount as your units are arriving on a 2+ from turn 3 anyway (the earliest time they could be a benefit). Nor are they a great benefit for accuracy as they have to stand there a turn before they can help bring anything down on target. Which menas they'll either be stood somewhere helpful and get nailed (as they are paper thin) or they will be out of the way and not help your arriving uinits anyway.

Devourer gaunts DSing is fun but only on mass if you're going that route spam at least 3 units because as people have pointed out they will die very quickly and at 10 points a model your army will quickly disappear. They are a paper cannon and a paper cannon has to hit hard first or it is stuffed, just 20 is a waste.

If you're worried about assaulting into cover you could take a Venomthrope or Carnifex with frag spines.

I thought a Venomthrope only granted Defensive Grenades, am I missing something?

Flingitnow. I think you are talking about an earlier version of the list. I've uppgraded it a few times. Check again and see that most of the good points you make are already adjusted in the later versions. I'm not very worried that my HT will be blow away as soon as it lands. I've got a pretty good chance to have gargoyles and drop pods to hide behind, not to mention that my club actually try to play with 25% of the table covered by terrain. And we have a fancy for the industrial, so lots of bunkers, ruins and big complexes. I'll have cover saves and will probably be out of LoS from many units. If I were playing with more points I'd surely bring more MCs.

Branderic: Carnifexes are not really supposed to charge things that can kill it in one round of assault, so fragspines+adr glands are not very powerful on them IMHO. The venomthrope has served me great for recieveing charges, but I can't really see how it helps when I'm doing the assaulting.

I was mistaken. I thought it had offensive grenades.

Branderic wrote:I was mistaken. I thought it had offensive grenades.

No problem, I can tell you tough, if Venomthropes had offensive grenades, they would go up 100% in usefulness. I'd never leave home without them.

Actually, venomthropes have lash whips, so you could make some enemies strike at initiative 1.

Branderic wrote:Actually, venomthropes have lash whips, so you could make some enemies strike at initiative 1.

Good point. They could be useful to attack MCs as well. I really need to experiment with spodding some of these as part of an assault force.

Mellon wrote:

Branderic wrote:Actually, venomthropes have lash whips, so you could make some enemies strike at initiative 1.

Good point. They could be useful to attack MCs as well. I really need to experiment with spodding some of these as part of an assault force.

I'd never SPOD them, they would be much better, behind a screen of guants, granting that 6" cover save, defensive grenades and dangerous terrain test for enemies. As for the Lash whips, while that is useful, the venomthrope is pretty fragile, and in most cases would not be worth sacrificing for just a few of the models to strike at I1 (since it only affects enemys in base contact with it) Just IMHO.

But the venomthropes would grant your units cover at a very vulnerable moment.