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Hallo! I'm a returning player looking for some criticism on this list. I've not played in 5th Ed yet, I last played during 4th Ed as Guard and Chaos Marines. I was wanting to know if this has enough killy power and scoring troops to cut it in the current edition?


HQ

Farseer - 175pts
-Jetbike
-Spirit Stones
-Fortune
-Doom
-Runes of Warding

Warlocks [x5] - 265pts
-Jetbikes
-Destructor [x2]
-Embolden
-Enhance

Troops

Guardian Jetbikes [x4] - 129pts
-Shuriken Cannon
-Warlock w/ Embolden, Singing Spear

Guardian Jetbikes [x4] - 129pts
-Shuriken Cannon
-Warlock w/ Embolden, Singing Spear

Dire Avengers [x10] - 252pts
-Exarch w/ Bladestorm, Dual Avenger Catapults
-Wave Serpent w/ TL Shuriken Cannons

Elites

Howling Banshees [x8] - 250pts
-Exarch w/ Executioner
-Wave Serpent w/ TL Shuriken Cannons

Heavy Support

Fire Prism - 150pts
-Holo Fields

Fire Prism - 150pts
-Holo Fields


The list isn't intended to be super-competitive, and the Howling Banshees are just in there 'cause I love the models. I'm a little iffy about the Guardian Jetbike squads being so small and squishy, but I plan on keeping 'em in reserve for as long as possible. That said I would appreciate any advice, thanks!

the change I would do (if we are talking about minor changes) would be to drop the holo fields on the Prisms and get 6 EJBs atleast one squad.

However, the list lacks reliable AT so a more competative list would need some fire dragons.

Hmm, that's not a bad idea. My reasoning behind the holofields was that the Fire Prisms were my only reliable way of mass killing MEQs, so I needed to keep them alive. I didn't realise I lacked anti-tank though. I figured that was my strength, between the Fire Prisms and the Warlocks (both Seer Council and Guardian Jetbike 'locks) throwing out plenty of S9 hits.

I wasn't 100% if the holofields were neccessary though, so I'll see what I can get for 70pts... Thanks!

Range is your best defence for prisms. Holofields doesnt really protect against weapon destoyed results.

You have a bit of str 9 weapons Ill give you that. But even the seer council will have serious problems cracking AV 14/13 that you only hit on 6 since they dont have any spears. What you want in 5th Ed is melta

Mmm, I forgot about hitting transports most times on 6s... Dropping the Banshees for a similar sized squad of Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent is tempting me now. They have similar anti-MEQ capabilities, I just hate their models. Time to break out a box of DA and some green stuff I think!

Would a squad of 8 Fire Dragons be adviseable? I heard 6 is a better max squad size.

7 regular and an exarch with Dragons Breath Flamer and Crack Shot is a nice size if you want them to have a dual purpose roll. I run mine strictly for tank hunting to so a min squad of 5 works fine for me.

Giving a few of your warlocks singing spears will remedy hitting on 6's since you'll hit the vehicle in the shooting phase and still be getting S9 hits.

Dragons are very efficient against vehicles though, and 'locks are great for popping transports or knocking dreadnoughts out of the game.

I run bike squads and 6+Warlock is ideal for most of the games I've played. I did run a complete squad of 12+'lock and fairly potent, but very cumbersome, losing the maneuverability that bikes usually have.

Finally, you could try a unit of infiltrating Scorpions in place of the Banshees. The numbers tend to swing both ways when comparing them and there's been flame wars on the matter here before. Personally, I like harlies, even if the did get hit with the nerf bat when rending went to +1d3.

Thanks for the advice guys! I've rejiggered my list a little, as so;


HQ

Farseer - 160pts
-Jetbike
-Spirit Stones
-Fortune
-Doom

Warlocks [x4] - 220pts
-Jetbikes
-Destructor [x2]
-Embolden
-Enhance

Troops

Guardian Jetbikes [x7] - 205pts
-Shuriken Cannon [x2]
-Warlock w/ Embolden, Singing Spear

Guardian Jetbikes [x7] - 205pts
-Shuriken Cannon [x2]
-Warlock w/ Embolden, Singing Spear

Dire Avengers [x10] - 252pts
-Exarch w/ Bladestorm, Dual Avenger Catapults
-Wave Serpent w/ TL Shuriken Cannons

Elites

Fire Dragons [x8] - 228
-Wave Serpent w/ TL Shuriken Cannons

Heavy Support

Fire Prism - 115pts

Fire Prism - 115pts


I'm pretty sure I'm set for anti-tank now! The jetseer council is a little leaner however at 5 bodies, and I'm still relegating all my anti-MEQ to a single squad (Fire Dragons now) and the Fire Prisms. Oh well, that's what Doom and copious amounts of Shuriken fire is for!

Drop 3 dragons 5 will slag any tank you point them at 8 is overkill. Use those points to get some spears in the council for popping fast transports.

Any spare points goes into either EMLs or Brightlances for the Serpents.

My reasoning on the 8 Fire Dragons and no spears in the council (and please tell me if this reasoning is wrong!), is that the Fire Dragons will double up on anti-MEQ duty for which they need all the bodies they can get. I know they're not hugely suited to this, as fusion guns have too few shots to wittle down a Marine squad, but I'm short on guns that ignore power armor. You're right though, 8 fusion guns is major overkill for just tank hunting.

As for the spears, I'm reluctant to put them on the Seer Council 'cause they hamper their CC power (less attacks in subsequent assault phases). Have mech-heavy lists really become that powerful in 5th ed? I figured between the Fire Prisms, the GJB squads that can throw out 6 S6 + 1 S9 shots, and the Seer Council still having the option of melee if it comes to it, I'd be covered against light transports?

Fire Prisms give you good anti-meq fire S6 AP3 large blast will hurt them.

Your fire dragons are going after Tanks first right? They'll jump out of their transport and slag a Land Raider. What happpens next? Every thing in your opponents army will seek rapid and violent revenge on those fire dragons. Even with 8 if any do survive don't expect it to be enough to seriously worry MEQs.

You want to kill MEQs blade storm those DAs and with Guide and Doom (so prehaps giving the seer guide might help you'll have to orchestrate well then though). Yes the spears reduce your attacks for combat resolution but you should be actually doing slightly more damage in total (as the attack you lose in CC is gained at range but with a better to hit of 2+/3+ rather than 3+/4+ for the seer/locks). With 2 destructors in there as well you should be fine. 3 spears is all you need so that shouldn't have a meaningful impact on your combat resolution.

While you might do slightly more damage (Warlocks have WS5 so hits pretty much all units on a +3 anyway). losses in the shooting phase might leave your Council out of charge range and the loss of CC attacks will decrease thier chances of getting the assaulted unit to break from combat.

If you want your Dragons to do dual duties then you need an exarch with a flamer and crackshot aswell. He will always kill more units than his fusion gun packing brothers.

A 5 man council is a tad bit to small imo, loosing two memebers will make then next to useless...

You're unlikely to kill out of assault range with 3 extra shots if that is a concern the Destructors are far more likely to cause that problem. The singing spears give you the ability to take down fast transports something this list would otherwise erally struggle again.

The Council is 6 man but yeah it is a little small.

It's 5 man in the revised list, I knocked 1 off and the Fire Prisms' holofields to fit the extra 6 GJB in.

I'm still not sure about the singing spears. They lose 1 CC attack, which they gain back in the form of a ranged attack before they charge, but any assault that lasts longer than the initial phase they're obviously not getting that attack back. That and worse combat resolution.

But I can see where FlingitNow is coming from. The GJB could knock out transports, but they're squishier than the Seer Council and scoring troops that should be kept safe. The Fire Prisms could be shooting at more valuable stuff.

And yeah, using Fire Dragons as both anti-tank and anti-MEQ isn't going to work. They'll do one or the other, once, then die...

edit - would a Falcon be better for the Fire Dragons if they've 6 man strong? I'm wary of Falcons in 5th, they don't seem nearly as resilient as they were, but they can do some damage after their kamikaze Fire Dragons have been dropped off unlike the Serpent.

Im not saying a few spears are necessarily bad, Im just pointing out that they are not flawless.

A falcon is not better for deploying dragons, it will not be left after they have deployed the dragons. The expensive holofield does not hold a candle to the energy field when you are within melta range.

Yeah spears aren't flawless but in a list like this lacking ranged AT they are for me a no brainer. If he had BL for fun and EML everywhich way but loose (or even masses scatter laser Walkers) then sure the spears would take away without adding much. But he doesn't so for me then aer necessary in this list.

The latter list seems more reasonable.
However, the Jetseer Council is a bit too small for my liking.

Ok, thanks to all the help I think I have a final list! I switched out one of the GJB squads for regular Guardians in a Wave Serpent, which gave me 20 extra points to spare. Coupled with 2 less DA, it gave me enough points to cram a few EML and spears in there!

HQ

Farseer - 160pts
-Jetbike
-Spirit Stones
-Fortune
-Doom

Warlocks [x5] - 271pts
-Jetbikes
-Destructor [x2]
-Spears [x2]
-Embolden
-Enhance

Troops

Guardian Jetbikes [x7] - 205pts
-Shuriken Cannon [x2]
-Warlock w/ Embolden, Singing Spear

Guardian Defenders [x10] - 205pts
-Shuriken Cannon
-Wave Serpent w/ TL Missile Launchers

Dire Avengers [x8] - 228pts
-Exarch w/ Bladestorm, Dual Avenger Catapults
-Wave Serpent w/ TL Shuriken Cannons

Elites

Fire Dragons [x5] - 200pts
-Wave Serpent w/ TL Missile Launchers

Heavy Support

Fire Prism - 115pts

Fire Prism - 115pts


Plenty of anti-tank. The Wave Serpents aren't all 100pt Shuriken Cannons anymore. The Seer Council even have some spears! It's also fairly fluffy for an Ulthwe strike force, which is what I'm painting it as.

I'll be buying most of this stuff at the end of the month (I already have a Wave Serpent, Dire Avengers, and some of the Seer Council... and a Vyper and Wraithlord, yeano not using those), so hopefully I'll get to play a few games to see how all the units gel together in a month or two. Thanks for all the help!