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Hey Guys, this list is in need of some dire help. In my first ever 40k battle, I just got absolutely annihilated by a dark angels army (2 dread noughts, 15 terminators, a drop pod, a land raider, the one with the twin linked assault cannons, multi melta and twin linked sponsor hurricane bolters). Whilst it was a pretty concrete list, and the gamer was reputable... I still can't help but feel I could have done better... managing to kill only 7 of his terminators.

Any help would be much appreciated.

HQ

Company Command Squad – 145pts
- Vox Caster, Plasma Gun, Standard Bearer, Medic, Krak Grenades, Commander has plasma pistol and power weapon

Troops

Infantry Platoon 1 – 385pts
- 1 Platoon Command Squad, 2 Infantry Squads, 2 Heavy Weapon Teams

Platoon Command Squad
- 3 Grenade Launchers, Vox Caster, Boltgun for Sergeant

Infantry Squad*
- Grenade Launcher, Lascannon, Commissar

Infantry Squad*
- Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter,

*Will join together, maybe...

Heavy Weapon Squad
- Mortars

Heavy Weapon Squad
- Heavy Bolters

Infantry Platoon 2 – 467pts
- 1 Platoon Command Squad, 2 Infantry Squads, 1 Heavy Weapon Teams, 2 Special Weapon Teams

Platoon Command Squad
- 3 Flamers, Vox Caster,

Infantry Squad*
- Flamer, Vox Caster, Commissar with boltgun pistol

Infantry Squad*
- Flamer

* Will join together.

Heavy Weapons Squad
- Missile Launchers

Special Weapon Squad
- 3 Snipers

Special Weapon Squad
- 3 Melta Guns

Heavy Attack

Leman Russ
- Sponsor Bolters

Leman Russ
- Sponsor Flamers

Leman Russ Demolisher

Total Points – 1502pts


General Battle Report - He managed to wipe out my demolisher, 1 leman russ and my meltagun team in the first turn. The heavy bolters were shockingly bad - and armour saves stopped them doing any damage at all. the snipers were equally bad. The grenade launchers were also really ineffective. Is this just because I was aggainst an extremely good army, or are they just generally quite rubbish?

On a positive note, the flamers and plasma weapons were worth triple their points. The command squad with 3 flamers managed to kill 4 Terminators, whilst the plasma gun and plasma pistol in the HQ command squad managed a kill each.

What can I do to improve this list, the guy I was against mentioned an upgraded hellhound? Also, I am considering changing the heavy bolter team for an autocannon one, and I want more plasma pistols...

Thoughts? Thanks Guys!

You have at least learn some basic tips of the guard. Any Heavy Bolter not free or as some people prefer on a valk is very bad. And 3 snipers with bs3 will also do little. GL are just kinda weird I guess. They work sometimes but better weapons out there.

For CCS, I'd make them a plasma gun bunker. Either 4 PG and maybe a PP all with carapace, or 3 PG, PP, and a medic. Give them a chimera if points allow. The standard, while nice, can easily be obsolete as long as your infantry squads have commissars. For PCS #1, I'd make it very similar to the flamer one. Lascannon is a waste on the infantry squad. I would downgrade it to a missile launcher/autocannon or drop it to power blob (power weapons and melta bomb). The 2nd squad should always combine with the commissar squad. Either switch the HB for an autocannon/missile launcher or do as above. Drop HWS, especially since they have HB and mortars. The 2nd platoon infantry squads should also have power weapons and meltas. ML HWS works decently I suppose but costs more than a hydra. SWS are pretty much a waste. Small numbers and ineffective stats. Swap them for a veteran squad with 3 meltas or plasmas. Drop sponsons on russes for either hull lascannons or nothing at all. Maybe swap one for hydras or another demo tank.

Vets + Meltas + Chimera = Win

A Dark Angels Termie list can be pretty rough on a troop heavy guard. I don't know what other IG models you have so for the most part I'll try to work within the bounds of what you've already got...

First, that melta special weapon squad? Take those meltas and make a vet squad with them. You're gonna want an edge with the ballistic skill.

The command squad - think about dropping the vox, standard, and medic. If you have more guys with plasma guns, put them in the CCS.

As for the tanks - Welp, you gotta work with what you've got. The main threat to them will probably be deepstriking Termies. If you can manage, try and make a perimeter of troops around them during deployment so that any shots on them will allow you to have a saving throw. Then you can try to move the troops out of the way for the tanks to fire. Demolisher cannon is AP 2, right? That's gonna be key. Protect that thing!

Snipers won't be much help against this sort of army. You gotta find ways to break their 2+ armor save (lascannons, plasma, melta, or a $&!%-ton of lasguns.). For the latter, First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire should do SOME help.

Mortars are gonna be pretty useless against this sort of army, methinks.

The GLs are probably one of the better choices for the Platoon command squad. Or, if you can keep them safe for a turn (preferably in a chimera or really good cover, load them out with 4 flamers.

To take out the Land Raider, you are either gonna have to get more lascannons to lay down fire on it or get some transports to bring a squad with meltas up close. Otherwise he can just sit back all day and shoot you to hell.


Your army is really geared toward taking down big mob armies like IG or Orks. To counter his units, you're gonna have to use different weapons. :/

Okay, let's see what I can do....

HQ: Pretty good overall, but as has been said, the standard is rendered obsolete if your infantry squads have Commissars. The way I use my CCS is staying with the HWS to issue orders, while the standard keeps them from running away. I would personally drop the standard and vox to take more plasma, especially if you're paying the points out for a Medic.

Troops: You hit on the head. Take autocannons instead. Heavy bolters are usually only good against horde armies, and that's too specific a niche. Autocannons tend to be better at both killing high toughness critters, and popping transports, making them a pretty good gun overall, and a steal at the same price as a Heavy Bolter. I would also avoid the Grenade Launcher spam. I personally find 'Nade launchers next to worthless, doing almost nothing. I would go for flamers, but keep the vox. In my experience, that reroll on an important FRFSRF order has meant the difference between dieing horribly in assault, and Guardsmen actually winning.

As was also said, I wouldn't take the lascannon in the infantry squads. If you must have a heavy weapon, take either the autocannon or heavy bolter. The 2nd Platoon is a very good thing, and I would recommend setting your 1st Platoon Infantry squads similar to that. The only thing in 2nd Platoon I'd caution against is the snipers....hitting on a 4+ then wounding on a 4+? Not really worth it I'd say....they're there to put the wounds on MCs, but you've already got plasma and autocannons to take care of that. I'd say drop the snipers, and try to take more melta, as that's something I'm seeing you're fairly weak in.


Heavy Support: I'd personally would put the sponson flamers on the Demolisher instead of the Russ, and potentially drop the Sponson Bolters on the first in order to take the 2nd Melta SWS I mentioned earlier. But yes, a regular LRBT has long range weapons, and needs to stay away from evil enemy cc infantry who can smash in its paper thin rear armor with all their nasty things. Taking flamers on a LRBT negates that. However, a Demolisher is going to be up close and personal anyway, so giving it flamers tends to mean it does a bit more damage to those around it before it falls. As long as you keep your Demolisher supported by your flamer infantry up there, you should be good.

kevandthingy wrote:The heavy bolters were shockingly bad - and armour saves stopped them doing any damage at all. the snipers were equally bad. The grenade launchers were also really ineffective. Is this just because I was aggainst an extremely good army, or are they just generally quite rubbish?

So, those weapons aren't rubbish, per se, it's just that they have some pretty niche roles that they fill. Unfortunately, most of your army list is packed with niche weapons, and none of those niches overlaps with terminators. That this list got soundly trounced by deathwing isn't actually that surprising.

The real problem with your list, in general, is that you've got a lot of points put into some really underwhelming firepower. Your list simply isn't strong enough, killing-power-wise, to be able to crack the shell of a tough list like terminators.

The first thing I'd do is start by throwing away all of your heavy weapons. Heavy weapons have niche roles, and are expensive for what they do. Generally, the only ones taking are lascannons and mortars if you have a specific need for them (and think long and hard about other options - there's usually some other way of doing what they do better for cheaper), and they should generally be confined to HWSs.

The second thing I'd do is to throw out the rest of your low-power and no-power upgrades. This means voxes, grenade launchers, bolt guns, sniper rifles, sponsons, and that awful medic you've got hiding in the CCS. Not only are these upgrades costing much-needed points, but they are also doing things like filling up weapons slots that could be used on better guns.

Once you've got all the junk cut out of your list (435 points, at first glance - yes, nearly a third of your points is currently being spent on junk), you can then spend those points to dish out some serious killing power. This means weapons which are at least S8, ignore armor, or both. Plasma guns, power weapons, artillery, melta hedges, there are lots and lots of ways to pack more punch into this list. The best part is that in order to afford more guns, you're likely going to need to buy more carriers, which means your durability will go up as well, buying you more time to fire more of those guns.

As for terminators in specific, remember, they're only T4. Break the armor save, and they die in an awful hurry.

Hey guys, thanks for the responses - Some of the points were really valid.

I have revised the army list accordingly. Also, I opted to keep the standard bearer as he served his purpose in the battle, although he might be replaced after the next battle for a medic... depending on how it goes. Among the other changes, I also decided to add extra armour to the leman russ's - Whilst no one suggested it... I figured it might make them more durable. Anyways here is the revised list. Thanks again for the advice.


HQ

Company Command Squad – 130pts
- Plasma Gun x3, Standard Bearer, Commander has plasma pistol and power weapon

Troops

Infantry Platoon 1 – 372pts
- 1 Platoon Command Squad, 3 Infantry Squads, 1 Heavy Weapon Squad

Platoon Command Squad
- 4 Grenade Launchers, Boltgun and Melta Bombs for Sergeant

Infantry Squad*
- Grenade Launcher, Missile Launcher, Commissar

Infantry Squad*
- Grenade Launcher, Missile Launcher

*Will join together

Infantry Squad
- Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter

Heavy Weapon Squad
- 3 Auto Cannons

Infantry Platoon 2 – 265pts
- 1 Platoon Command Squad, 2 Infantry Squads, 1 Heavy Weapon Teams

Platoon Command Squad
- 4 Flamers, Commander has Plasma Pistol and Melta Bombs

Infantry Squad*
- Flamer, Commissar

Infantry Squad*
- Flamer

* Will join together.

Heavy Weapons Squad
- 3 Missile Launchers

Veteran Squad
- Demolition Team, 3 Melta Guns, 5 Shotguns, Commander with Shotgun, Chimera with Flamers

Heavy Attack

Leman Russ
- Sponsor Bolters and Extra Armour

Leman Russ
- Sponsor Bolters and Extra Armour

Leman Russ Demolisher
- Extra Armour

Total Points – 1502pts

Is it any better? Will it still be fairly effective against horde armies such as nids and orks? If I was to bump it up to 1750pts, what should I add?

Thoughts Welcomed.

Thanks

Drop the boltgun so your legal, and things look good. I'd advise against the pw in the CCS....seems like you'd want that squad shooting at stuff, and if it's gotten into CC things are rapidly heading downhill. Standard bearer is good, and I'd say keep him over the Medic. If you want your CCS to not fry itself too much, then Carapace armor might work well.

Just for eases sake, I'd say give ALL the guys in your veteran squad either lasguns or shotguns. I personally would go with lasguns, as without melta bombs in that squad, assault won't be doing too much.

For going up to 1750, I would say your weakness in long range AT would become apparent. A lascannon HWS or 2 would prove useful, not to mention more melta vets in Chimeras are always something the IG enjoy.

so, it's definitely better, but still not at peak awesome.

For one, I think you don't quite see how your infantry are going to work. For example, except for in the rarest of circumstances (like seize ground with lots of objectives), you're ALWAYS going to want to blob up your infantry. A single 10-man squad with just a heavy bolter and a grenade launcher and no commissar, is basically just a waste of points. If you want bodies for nothing more than the sake of more bodies, then take conscripts because they're cheaper.

As for killing power, while it's better than it was before, it's still pretty lackluster. You're spending a lot on infantry and the result is a lot of lasguns and a smattering of blast lasguns (GLs and MLs). It's better, but you're still spending a lot of points on not much but meat sacks while relying VERY heavily on vehicles to do your killing for you. Not only is this a generally poor idea in this case, but your killing power also has some holes in it (like against terminators, for example, where very little can break through the 2+, or AV14.)

Basically, do what you did between lists one and two, except do it like 6 more times and then post a list with the results.