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I was just wondering with a few companies now(or about to) release near future troops and rulebooks, is this the start of a new wargaming genre? I know that there are some rules in existence which could be called near future, but the difference this time seems to be the availability of armies in 28mm scale. Can this genre take off and survive?
I read a lot of posters here on Dakka talk of dropping sci/fi in favor of historical wargames (mostly WW2 it seems), can Near Future provide a good alternative? After all it has its feet planted in the 'historical' side of wargaming as well as looking to the future (sci-fi).
Thoughts?
I relish the change that this could bring. While I like history, I am not particularly interested in historical wargaming. Sci-fi gaming has kinda gotten saturated and is based to much on historical combat and tech for my liking. GW is a big one for this. In the far future everyone fights like it is WW1 or WW2. So even the future is actually the past. And the vehicle design is just flat lame for the human armies. At least the Eldar and Tau have interesting vehicles.
I would love to see a near future game that is not a post apoc genre. Something like Shadowrun meets aliens. The tech is more advanced so you get some nice toys like powered suits and cool vehicles, but not the oppressive, skull laden 40K scene. Space travel is possible, but not perfected. We have found aliens, but some aren't nice. Some Anime is like this and would be a nice area of research for ideas.
This is why Alien War has me excited. Realistic looking tech with human division being prominent, but there are bugs as well. Its a win for me.
The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.
I too like history, a lot, but I've never really wanted to buy historical miniatures as I don't like how most them look.
And I'd hardly say that warfare is conducted as it was in WWI and WWII in 40k, of course there are some similiarities but only because they are the methods of war that have worked throughout real, and 40k, history. What kind of thing do you mean Shepherd?
The best part is, you can use your 40k models! Ahem. Let me rephrase. As an added bonus, you can use your 40k models with a realistic, balanced, and fun ruleset that demands both intelligent strategic and tactical thinking from the players. Tomorrow's War also has the additional benefit of allowing you to go from near-future tech to more outlandish concepts. As a reviewer put it, 'the game covers just about anything you can think of from a modern to sci-fi setting: VTOLs, fast roping, atmospheric insertion, artillery (on and off table (I’m a fan of off table arty, personally), mechanized forces and more. The robot concepts of drones and androids are covered very well and have a good deal of detail and you get more of a kit approach for aliens.'
A warning, however - the game lacks any sort of 'points system' - this is a game based off of scenarios and calling your friends before heading over to your local club or basement to plan out scenarios.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/01/30 04:45:11
ReturningPlayer wrote:I too like history, a lot, but I've never really wanted to buy historical miniatures as I don't like how most them look.
And I'd hardly say that warfare is conducted as it was in WWI and WWII in 40k, of course there are some similiarities but only because they are the methods of war that have worked throughout real, and 40k, history. What kind of thing do you mean Shepherd?
The widespread usage of small unit tactics during late WW2 spurred a revision of warfare in every war since. Korea and Vietnam saw a widespread usage of aircraft usage in ground warfare. Modern warfare sees the widespread usage of ship and aircraft launch munitions that cause traumatic localized damage with high accuracy.
40K employs cavalry units. Cavalry died in WW1 with the advent of the machine gun. Orks use mass unit charges that also stopped being used, MOSTLY, after the machine gun. Iguard employ the gun line tactic that hasn't been really effective since guerrilla warfare saw widespread usage. Close combat as a whole is no longer seen in battle on the scale that it is emphasized in 40K. For several armies in 40K, the point is to get into close combat.
As for the vehicle models, most 40K land based vehicles used by the Iguard and marines are illogical knock offs of WW1 eurpoean designs that saw little to no usage due to huge design flaws. Do you see a tank in use today that has the side hull go to within inches of the ground so as to fully enclose the track system? None that I know of. As I stated, the Tau and Eldar vehicles are interesting and make more sense given the technology that they are said to use.
And please tell me that it isn't true that the "best" thing about the Tomorrow's War game is that I can use GW minis. Please give me another reason to play. I am begging here.
This is why I would love to see a game set in the "not to distant" future that uses logical technology advances that are actually futuristic and plausible. As I stated already, several anime movies portray a plausible future tech usage. Heavily armed powered jump suits (like the Tau) for fast raids and armored infantry for holding positions and working in places that suits cannot. Shadowrun tech is also a plausible addition for models to have realistic looking implants instead of the steampunk inspired limbs seen in 40K.
And before it gets said, I know that some modern warfare items would not make for fun game play, but I am certain that some game designer out there would be able to work with what is there. I am certain that model designers can make items that look more plausible than most of the stuff in 40K. And I am sure that I am not the only one that actually wants to see it happen. I can't be the only one that hasn't fallen for the "This is a Space Marine. HOW COOL IS THAT!" line. And, yes, that is a direct quote from a GW staffer at a Gamesday event.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/30 04:35:09
The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.
Shepherd23 wrote:
I would love to see a near future game that is not a post apoc genre. Something like Shadowrun meets aliens. The tech is more advanced so you get some nice toys like powered suits and cool vehicles, but not the oppressive, skull laden 40K scene. Space travel is possible, but not perfected. We have found aliens, but some aren't nice. Some Anime is like this and would be a nice area of research for ideas.
You just described Infinity
Well, except that none of the aliens are nice...unless you count the human-created Artificial Intelligence as alien.
Slipstream wrote:I was just wondering with a few companies now(or about to) release near future troops and rulebooks, is this the start of a new wargaming genre? I know that there are some rules in existence which could be called near future, but the difference this time seems to be the availability of armies in 28mm scale. Can this genre take off and survive?
It sounds like what you are looking for is "hard' sci-fi, that is Sci-Fi that tries to realistically portray near and further-out future combat based on what future technology will be. This genre has been around for a long time and is doing well, though it's not nearly as visible as 40k and is spread over many different scales. 28mm is fairly common, but folks wanting realistic future combat often turn to scales such as 15mm and 6mm to more realistically represent combats larger than platoon level (20-30 miniatures a side) which is about the largest size engagement that can realistically be portrayed on a 4x6 table). Rulesets such as Tomorrows War, Stargrunt, Future War Commander and many others, support near and far future combat and are supported by miniature lines from Ground Zero games, Rebel Miniatures, EM4, Copplestone Castings, and many others.
notprop wrote:This is how 40K started - Lazerburn I think the original Ansell rules were called?
Not really. Laserburn was not near future, and had far more in common with 40k (power armor, aliens and other wierdness) and space-opera/Sci-Fantasy than it did with "hard" sci-fi.
The best part is, you can use your 40k models! Ahem. Let me rephrase. As an added bonus, you can use your 40k models with a realistic, balanced, and fun ruleset that demands both intelligent strategic and tactical thinking from the players. Tomorrow's War also has the additional benefit of allowing you to go from near-future tech to more outlandish concepts. As a reviewer put it, 'the game covers just about anything you can think of from a modern to sci-fi setting: VTOLs, fast roping, atmospheric insertion, artillery (on and off table (I’m a fan of off table arty, personally), mechanized forces and more. The robot concepts of drones and androids are covered very well and have a good deal of detail and you get more of a kit approach for aliens.'
A warning, however - the game lacks any sort of 'points system' - this is a game based off of scenarios and calling your friends before heading over to your local club or basement to plan out scenarios.
Tomorrows War really is one of the best near-future "hard" sci-fi systems out there. You can use your 40k figures with it, but it's aimed at much more "realistic" types of warfare. It's based around sound tactics and technology that extrapolates into the future based on what current military technology is today. This is in stark contrast to 40k on the other hand, which is based on fantasy factions, heroic charachters, psychic powers and aliens (though you can have aliens in TW also) and crams them all onto a rediculously small battlefield. TW has got a great reaction system, and once you've played a few games, it really makes it obvious just how much of a "fantasy" system 40k really is.
Note that this is not a knock on 40k which is a fun Sci-Fantasy game. It's just not a "hard" or realistic (if such a term can be applied) sci-fi combat game, which is what TW is aims for.
lord_blackfang wrote:There are plenty of near-future and hard sci-fi rulesets out there. Mostly for 15mm scale. Few settings, tho.
This is currently partially true. Near future combat settings were more common durring the cold war, with games like Twilight 2000. However, For extremely Near Future, you need only extrapolate a bit from current politicaly realities. For sci-fi future there are quite a few universes, though few as well developed as 40k or Battletech. Tomorrow's War has nicely developed game setting that is only a few hundred years off and, Infinity reportedly has a good one. IMHO, one of the failings of modern gamers if the need for a pre-set setting/rules, etc. Get with your gaming group, pick a set of rules you like and then build your setting together, or base it on a series of books, or modify an existing gaming setting for your game of choice.
Thanks for all the replies. What I was trying to get across is this; With 28mm near future armies in plastic becoming available is near future wargaming going to have a bigger more focussed market? From what I can make out NF wargaming in this scale has been limited to skirmish type games(apologies if I'm wrong in this), but now to me it seems it is about to make the leap to true battle wargames. I'm very much for this newish type genre as I see it being of benefit to many manufacturers(see how tomorrow's war sponsors the likes of GZG and Pig Iron).
I'm aware of the many sci/fi wargames in smaller scales but to be honest I've never been tempted to try them, also as a predominantly painter/collector I don't think my eyes could handle it!
I am looking forward to buying into these new ranges and hope that it thrives and we will have a whole range of rule systems/figures to support it.
Slipstream wrote:From what I can make out NF wargaming in this scale has been limited to skirmish type games
All 28mm sci-fi gaming bar 40k has so far been limited to skirmish, and for one reason alone: only GW can manufacture semi-affordable large vehicle kits.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
lord_blackfang wrote:
All 28mm sci-fi gaming bar 40k has so far been limited to skirmish, and for one reason alone: only GW can manufacture semi-affordable large vehicle kits.
Well...yes and no. Antenociti's Workshop sells quite reasonable 28mm resin tank kits: http://www.antenocitisworkshop.com/antenocitis/g-o-t-vehicles-1.html of good quality and they are hardly the first to do so. I think one of the reasons sci-fi near future (which includes "far future" that mystically still use infantry and tanks despite technological advancement that by all rights should have outdated at least the latter) 28mm doesn't do tanks is that they are not very well suited for a 28mm battlefield. When I had my military training, tactical displacement of a single 8-man infantry squad in rural environment could often get up to 80-100 meters. A 6x4 inch table for 28mm (1:64 scale) would be a bit above a 100 meters broad. Even platoon level manouvering is completely beyond 28mm modern warfare, which is - as noted above - why designers go to 15 or 6mm for armoured warfare. Tanks and armoured vehicles are simply wildly out of scale for 28mm.
The best part is, you can use your 40k models! Ahem. Let me rephrase. As an added bonus, you can use your 40k models with a realistic, balanced, and fun ruleset that demands both intelligent strategic and tactical thinking from the players. Tomorrow's War also has the additional benefit of allowing you to go from near-future tech to more outlandish concepts. As a reviewer put it, 'the game covers just about anything you can think of from a modern to sci-fi setting: VTOLs, fast roping, atmospheric insertion, artillery (on and off table (I’m a fan of off table arty, personally), mechanized forces and more. The robot concepts of drones and androids are covered very well and have a good deal of detail and you get more of a kit approach for aliens.'
A warning, however - the game lacks any sort of 'points system' - this is a game based off of scenarios and calling your friends before heading over to your local club or basement to plan out scenarios.
Sounds intriguing.
Any websites that have batreps or content for this that might show off the game/rules?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/31 01:10:45
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The best part is, you can use your 40k models! Ahem. Let me rephrase. As an added bonus, you can use your 40k models with a realistic, balanced, and fun ruleset that demands both intelligent strategic and tactical thinking from the players. Tomorrow's War also has the additional benefit of allowing you to go from near-future tech to more outlandish concepts. As a reviewer put it, 'the game covers just about anything you can think of from a modern to sci-fi setting: VTOLs, fast roping, atmospheric insertion, artillery (on and off table (I’m a fan of off table arty, personally), mechanized forces and more. The robot concepts of drones and androids are covered very well and have a good deal of detail and you get more of a kit approach for aliens.'
A warning, however - the game lacks any sort of 'points system' - this is a game based off of scenarios and calling your friends before heading over to your local club or basement to plan out scenarios.
They ARE working on a points system - but a well thought out scenario with balanced forces doesn't take too much effort to come up with. I've tried it with Guard v marines ( d8 guard with a 3:1 numbers advantage who are outclassed against the marines with d10s and powered armour) and it ended badly for them. SM play like their fluff shows them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CT GAMER wrote:
Sounds intriguing.
Any websites that have batreps or content for this that might show off the game/rules?
Slipstream wrote:Thanks for all the replies. What I was trying to get across is this; With 28mm near future armies in plastic becoming available is near future wargaming going to have a bigger more focussed market? From what I can make out NF wargaming in this scale has been limited to skirmish type games(apologies if I'm wrong in this), but now to me it seems it is about to make the leap to true battle wargames. I'm very much for this newish type genre as I see it being of benefit to many manufacturers(see how tomorrow's war sponsors the likes of GZG and Pig Iron).
.
I'm assuming that by "NF" you are thinking in terms of rulesets that are more realistic in rules and scope than 40k. The reason these types of games in 28mm have been limited to games ranging from skirmish (8-12 figs a side) to platoon level (20-40 figures and a vehicle or two per side) is that's all you can realistically fit on a 4x6 table in 28mm. The mass battle game in 28mm that crams 80 figs and a half dozen vehicles per side on a standard gaming table only works with sci-fantasy rulesets that throw out realism in favor of close combat focused rules, remarkably short weapon ranges and other fantastical abstractions.
The kinds of mass battles that you are looking for can only be done "realistically" on standard gaming tables in smaller scales such as 15mm or 6mm. The kinds of "true battle wargames" you're looking for have been around for a while in the games I mentioned in my previous post, but those have been mostly at smaller scales.
All that said, in the future it would be nice to see a Near-Future/Sci-Fi rulest that attempts to find a middle ground between the realism of TW and the fantasy of 40k with a game size that is also somewhere in between the two.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CT GAMER wrote:Sounds intriguing.
Any websites that have batreps or content for this that might show off the game/rules?
