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Greetings all,

So, after years of looking, and at least one false start, I've decided to start up Cygnar. Part of it is boredom with 40k, part of it is that Warmahordes is played more often at the store, and part of it is that I'm going to be able to trade my unused gaming stuff for some cygnar stuff.

If a trade goes through, I'll have the following:

Battlebox
Heavy
extra Lancer
Sentinel
Gunmages + UA
Longgunners +UA
Stormcasters x3
Field Mechanics
gun Mage solo

Let me tell you what I know (or I think I know), and then I'll launch into questions. I know that PP is more combo oriented, with a decent learning curve. I know that caster choice matters almost more than faction choice for style of play. I know that the Journeyman cast and squire are nearly always used by Cygnar.

What I don't know:

How essential is magnetizing the plastic heavy? It seems nearly always done, but are there really multiple useful variants?

How do you base the models? Does facing matter?

What books do I need to buy to play? What templates or other accessories?

As an experienced wargamer, how many games do I need before I can at least enjoy myself playing in tournaments?

Let me try and have a crack at this:

Polonius wrote:
How essential is magnetizing the plastic heavy? It seems nearly always done, but are there really multiple useful variants?

You'll wan't to have the Defender and Cyclone at least, the Ironclad you have covered in the battle box.

And yes, those 2 warjacks are pretty handy to have, the Ironclad is our cheapest heavy but it is easily replaced by Ol'Rowdy or the Stormclad.

Polonius wrote:
How do you base the models? Does facing matter?

You'll wan't to have a 180º facing marked (painted), on the base. Almost all models have a 180º LOS and you'll get bonuses for stuff like back strikes.

Polonius wrote:
What books do I need to buy to play? What templates or other accessories?

You just need the general rulebook, everything else is on the cards that are suplied with the miniatures.

You do need a spray and blast template, I recomend the ones from PP itself. ( http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=prp_wmc_acc_tpl_102_000&sou=ord )

Polonius wrote:
As an experienced wargamer, how many games do I need before I can at least enjoy myself playing in tournaments?

That really depends on your personal meta... I would say that for someone used to gaming, about 10 or 20 games should get you comfortable enough with the general rules and your own faction quircks so that you can enjoy a SR tournament. Hardcore will be another matter entirely and I don't think you can get used to it unless you specifically practice for that format (I don't intend to judge your player skill with this comment, I' just speaking for personal experience here, I wouldn't be able to play well in a hardcore format for instance).

Thanks for the replies. Is there an example anywhere of the base markings I can see?

I have an irrational dislike of magnetizing models, and I'm curious if I'd ever need two Cyclones or Defenders, or if I can just buy two kits and build one of each. OTOH this is the mentality that led to me owning more than one 10,000pt 40k army....

Also, it seems that PP models should paint up easily. is that the case?

Hello, and welcome to the wonderful world of Warmachine!

I was actually on my way to collecting a Cygnar army, before I fell and was turned by Cryx. So, as to your questions:

1. It depends, but I'd heartily recommend you magnetize the heavy. While there are some 'jacks that are more efficient that others, each variant is useful in it's own way, and with different warcasters. The Ironclad is Cygnar's basic 'jack, and very handy with it's knockdown Quake Hammer and open hand. The Defender has a good-POW and long range gun that most Cygnaran warcasters can only improve upon, as well as a hammer that causes Cortex (the thing needed to allocate 'jacks focus) damage with each hit. The Cyclone is an anti-infantry 'jack, with the ability to lay down a template that can help with board control.

And, of course, marshalling the Defender or the Cyclone to the Dude (gunmage UA) can also change how they play, like using the Cyclone's Rapid Fire with the Dude's Thunderbolt rune shot.

2. Facing depends on the model - since the Front Arc is 1/2 the base, most of the time you can use the model's shoulders as a guide. Other people mark the base. You can print out these markers to help mark the front arc.

3. The main rulebook is all you need to play. I'd also advise you pick up the template set that Privateer Press makes (in blue, of course). Of course, if some of the models are missing cards, the Cygnar 2010 faction deck is a must-have, since it contains multiples of every card in the faction produced up to 2010.

4. That depends. One of the nice things about HoMachine is that it's built around competitive play. If you have a decent community nearby, I'd head over and start playing games with them. Start out at Battlebox, then head up to 15 points, then up to 25, 35 and 50. HoMachine is a game that depends on both your pre-game choices, which will dicate what synergies can be used in-game, and your in-game choices, as the battle unfolds. Trying to jump right into 35 or 50 point games will be confusing and trying. Try out a couple of different Warcasters on the way up.

And be prepared to lose your first few games!

Polonius wrote:Thanks for the replies. Is there an example anywhere of the base markings I can see?

Sure.






These are the more usual and discrete markings, if you go and look at the PP forums galleries you'll find plenty of examples of people that have instead painted the entire facing on the base with things ranging from a single colour to their races runes...

Polonius wrote:
I have an irrational dislike of magnetizing models, and I'm curious if I'd ever need two Cyclones or Defenders, or if I can just buy two kits and build one of each. OTOH this is the mentality that led to me owning more than one 10,000pt 40k army....

Outside of some very specific theme lists, I don't think you'll need two of any heavy warjack. If you don't like magnetizing (I know I don't), then don't do it and just buy two kits to make the two variants.

Polonius wrote:
Also, it seems that PP models should paint up easily. is that the case?

I find it so. They aren't overly filled with unnecessary details like some other companies lines of models so are pretty straightforward to paint...

Hey there and welcome.

Polonius wrote:How essential is magnetizing the plastic heavy? It seems nearly always done, but are there really multiple useful variants?

It is a good idea to save you money. As a Cryx player I have two plastic heavies, both magnetised. I rarely use the corruptor (though I have a list that does run two of them to try out) but the ability to be able to decide that this list would be better with a reaper or slayer gives me great flexibility when designing lists. It also frees up space in the bag to carry other models For the Cygnarian version you can build a Cyclone, Defender, or Ironclad. Out of those models I've mostly faced the defender but that would be less useful against an infantry swarm, so then you should take a Cyclone. And the ironclad is a cheap heavy that can knockdown the enemy (makes them easy to hit). Depending on the other stuff in your army each has a use.

Polonius wrote:How do you base the models? Does facing matter?

Not quite sure about this question. Each model should come with a lipped base of 30mm, 40mm or 50mm (or 120mm) that looks like this. You could replace it with a resin base if you like the look of something or put whatever you like on the top. You just have to make sure that you keep the outer edge of the base whole. Warmachine measures from base edge to base edge. So something with a range of 8" needs to have it's closest base edge within 8" of the target.

The facing of the model relative to the base doesn't matter. It does matter in the actual game itself though. You can only charge/make attacks against something that you can see and this can only happen against things in your front arc. Here's a picture to save me some words. Marking your base this way saves time as then both you and your opponent know what's happening on the tabletop.

Polonius wrote:What books do I need to buy to play? What templates or other accessories?

To start with the rules. If you are getting the battlebox in your trade it should come with a set of quick start rules that should do you for the first few games. When you want to go to larger battles then you'll want prime mkii. And that's the absolute minimum you need. If you want to know more about the cygnar options then your next best purchase is the Forces of Cygnar book. In there you'll find most of the models you can use. Then there is also the warmachine Wrath book which is the latest of the warmachine anthologies. It gives extra options to all the warmachine factions and some of the cygnar stuff in there looks pretty good.

Templates and accessories. The template set is a good purchase as it's solid and covers the basics. After that then you could get the token set. With the erase markers that every player should have you can write down spell effects and keep track of focus. Covers for your cards so you can use those erase markers for damage and dice are the other things that come to mind.

Polonius wrote:As an experienced wargamer, how many games do I need before I can at least enjoy myself playing in tournaments?

Ooooo, you had to go and ask a difficult question at the end. Ok, the best way to go about this game is to play at the battlebox level till you get the basics of focus, charges, attacks, spells and feats. Then add in a few points to get to 15-25 points and play at that level till you can understand how solos and units move and activate. After that you shouldn't embarrass yourself at a tournament.

Just get the basics of the game right at the start without worrying about larger games. I've seen people jump into larger battles (25pts and upwards) and become frustrated with the fact their army doesn't work well together whilst the enemy is buffing that unit with this solo and such.


Edit: Carp, that took far too long to write. ninja by everybody :(

All right, so I've gotten the first of my stuff from trades. I secured a Cygnar Faction book, and looking through it I see theme lists.

They don't make it clear, but do you have to satisfy every tier to get stacked benefits, or do you pick one and just get that? So, if I meet tier 1-3, do I get all three? Or just 3?

Based on the look and feel of the models, I'm thinking about rolling with Caine and tempest mages (the models that hooked me on Cygnar), and play jerkface magic gunslingers!

@polonius

you get them all

Polonius wrote:
They don't make it clear, but do you have to satisfy every tier to get stacked benefits, or do you pick one and just get that? So, if I meet tier 1-3, do I get all three? Or just 3?

You have to meet the requirements for all the tiers to get the benefits. So to get to T3 you have to meet the requirements for T1, T2 and T3 and you get the benefit of each tier.

That seemed the most logical. I kind of like the idea of eCaine's all singing, all dancing gunslinger review...

I too am starting out and look at a all Gun Mage/jack army with eCaine will that work or will i still have run things like Stormblades ?

In my experience, eCaine's tier list is not as awesome as it looks. Gun mages are awesome, and I love them, but they have serious issues against armor. If you don't take a hunter, you'll find any other light jack unable to do much of anything against heavies.

And as squishy as gun mages are, you really need to look at a decent screening/tarpit unit to hold things out of melee. I know eCaine gives gunfighter to this gun mages, but they rarely want to get into melee, and they usually die pretty fast in melee.

eCaine lists is pretty much an eCaine assassination delivery system, designed to threaten / pressure your opponent's warcaster. IMHO, the tier lists are not worth it, because they deprive eCaine of Reinholdt and the Squire which drops eCaine's potential damage output tremendously due to the 2 free shots they confer (you essentially lose out on a potential POW20 and POW21 feat shot). eCaine threatens up to 19" unaided with LOS and up to 15" without. I've only played 3 or 4 games with him but here's the last list I used:

eCaine (@35)
Reinholdt (+1 shot any turn Caine needs to shoot)
Squire (+1 shot any turn Caine needs to shoot)
Rowdy (free run / charge / countercharge ARM19+Buckler)
ATGM +UA (shooting to kill things between eCaine and the enemy caster, or thunderbolting tough things out of the way)
ATGM (for more of the same)
Black 13th (magestorm and flare)
Rangers (boosts everyone's accuracy, SPD7 pathfinder)

5 points left to add items to taste: In this case, to continue the gunmage theme, I took:

Taryn (two shots for two points)
Jr Warcaster (arcane shield makes Rowdy durable, B13 more survivable vs blasts, Caine more survivable and offers a boostable hand cannon)

Alternatives I was considering:

Taryn
Eyriss (either ver)

Aiyanna and Holt (+2DMG, 2 more hand cannon shots)
Stormsmith

Other thoughts:

Stormguard function well with e-Caine's love of gun mages as they have ranked attack and your forces can shoot through them. With reach, they make a decent (if not durable) speed bump. Electroleap on them can potentially savage light infantry and POW12's are respectable, damage-wise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing to keep in mind however, eCaine's all dancing gunmage army has a few weaknesses. They can not out-attrition an attrition army with high ARM. As Alfndrate pointed out, POW10's don't cut it against even medium ARM, and even shield walled infantry is usually enough to render your gunmages impotent. Losing your gunmages early is always a problem as the thunderbolt shots are key to complementing eCaine's assassination strategy. If you are feeling saucy, you can even use them to shove eCaine forwards while he has heightened reflexes up (to avoid any inconvenient critical hits). Blasts SHRED gunmages. Fire will wreck your face. eCaine dies horribly to fire - on average, if it doesn't go out, eCaine will die to it in 2 turns.

This is very much a surgical strike army as you need to go for the throat right away (or project that you are , and run for the objectives). Balance needs to be found in exposing your key elements to enemy fire while maintaining optimal striking distance. While it is always possible to win with only eCaine at the end, he is much easier to manage when his gunmages are no longer there to burrow a vector for him.

I've still been trying to come up with several eCaine lists I like (I stopped at his Tier 3 because I didn't like the Lancers...

I started with this (when I made my initial purchase/Christmas Listing):

eCaine
Lancer
Charger
Charger
ATGM w/ UA
Jack Marshaled Sentinal
ATGM
Rangers
Black 13
Gun Mage Adept
Gun Mage Adept

That's a Tier 3 eCaine list, it has a lot of shooting, and a decent amount of maneuverability, but its not even a glass cannon, its more like a cap gun. The only thing that I generally managed with my jacks was to push back any heavies coming towards me with all of those Thunderbolt shots.

Right now I'm looking more at something like this: (I haven't tested it yet)

eCaine
Rowdy
ATGM w/UA
Black 13
Rangers
Steelhead Halberdiers (Leader and 9 Grunts)
Gun Mage Adept
Gun Mage Adept
Reinholdt

The only reason why I keep taking the Adept solos is because of the brutal damage. Unlike the regular ammo the Gun Mages get, these guys always get an additional die on damage. Which makes their POW10 guns a little less weak.

I could take out one of the Adepts and put in either another unit of ATGM or another Jack, but with as much as eCaine loves to hog focus, I'm hesitant to do it.

My only issue with this is facing against things that enjoy multiple heavies. Like any Khador caster, eDoomshaper lists, and even my store's legion player that loves his Carniveans

I can't get behind the GMCA. For me, the one shot is a dealbreaker. In almost every situation, I'd rather have Taryn or two stormsmiths instead (disruption!)

Pros:
Can target stealth
Another thunderbolt
Accurate

Cons:
Single shot
Low POW

Taryn

Pros:
2 shots
Black Penny
ARM12 on a gunmage! Still rubbish, but every little bit helps vs blasts.

Cons:
Low POW
No thunderbolt
Ghost shot is useless with Cygnar

Agreed on the GMCA. He was one of the casualties of the Mk2 conversion. He was so good in Mk1 that he got beat too hard with the nerf bat. I wouldn't count stealth mitigation in his favor since that's not a problem for an eCaine list.

Two smiths can also pull off the line of disruption or pick off solos.

OK, I'll bite. Who's Taryn?

Mercenary Gun Mage, Taryn Di La Rovissi. She also likes having Rutger Shaw around. Alot.

what about this?


Total Army Cost: 35

Battlegroup (2#, 2 pts)
1 Captain Allister Caine, 0 pts
1 Squire, 2 pts

Support - Unit (3#, 4 pts)
1 Black 13th Gun Mage Strike Team, 0 pts
1 Lynch, 2 pts
1 Ryan, 1 pts
1 Watts, 1 pts

Arcane Tempest Gun Mages (8#, 14 pts)
6 Leader & Grunts, 6 pts = 6 * 1
1 Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer, 2 pts
1 Hunter, 6 pts

Arcane Tempest Gun Mages (8#, 14 pts)
6 Leader & Grunts, 6 pts = 6 * 1
1 Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer, 2 pts
1 Hunter, 6 pts

Support - Solo (1#, 1 pts)
1 Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator, 1 pts

If I remember correctly, that is not a legal list because the UA is FA 1

I have been using army builder and it dint say any about it.

@th3eviltwin: Your army is illegal. WJ points need to be spent on battlegroup warjacks. Alfndrate is also correct about the ATGM UA FA:1.

ok thanx

th3eviltwin wrote:I have been using army builder and it dint say any about it.

Army Builder can suck it when it comes to building Warmachine/Hordes armies... ForwardKommander is where it's at... But again, you should double check all "army list builders" with your cards....

I second the notion of Army Builder not being the best thing for Warmahordes (Hormachine?) armies. I use Forward Kommander when at my computer and iBodger when on the road. I think someone found a minor error in FK at some point, but I think it has been fixed and it was pretty niche to begin with.

ForwardKommander is dodgy when it comes to the tiers. There are several of them that have problems. For the most part, I just use iBodger. pCaine tier can have two of the dude, but that doesn't remotely make up for the loss of Squire and Reinholdt. eCaine can have more GMCA's which is pretty bleh.

I can't say much for AB cause I haven't used it in years since the 3.2 licensing scam. Go 3-4 years without an update since they were pimping cardlab and herolab and then want me to pay in arrears for those years they didn't do any support. No thanks.

12thRonin wrote:ForwardKommander is dodgy when it comes to the tiers. There are several of them that have problems. For the most part, I just use iBodger. pCaine tier can have two of the dude, but that doesn't remotely make up for the loss of Squire and Reinholdt. eCaine can have more GMCA's which is pretty bleh.

I can't say much for AB cause I haven't used it in years since the 3.2 licensing scam. Go 3-4 years without an update since they were pimping cardlab and herolab and then want me to pay in arrears for those years they didn't do any support. No thanks.

ForwardKommander has been pretty spot on with the tier requirements, but it always sucks when I'm just building lists and I build a "tier" list and I have no idea what my benefits are lol.

I ran into one a couple weeks ago trying to do an epic Irusk tier to add Widowmakers. No bueno on FK, checked the book and it works, check iBodger and it works. No biggie really. I've seen other posts around the net where similar problems are in different tiers. Core lists seem to be pretty solid.

ibodger also has trouble every now and then. I recall a time when
it was giving epic severius a discount for heavy 'jacks even when
you weren't using the theme force that gives you a discount. As
has been said, check all lists, even if it's checking hem on the
forums.

The one thing in FK/iB is to keep in mind with the discounted units is that you have to purchase them undiscounted first if they're required to fit theme. For instance, Harkevich doesn't get cheaper warjacks until T4. If you have only 8pts left and haven't hit T4 requirements it won't let you buy a Destroyer even if it would put you at T4 to do so because you're currently T3 and it's a 9pt jack.