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So this is my first attempt at building any fantasy army. I apologize in advance if there are mistakes. I'm just looking for general criticism and suggestions. The list is also currently only 2411 points, so I'm looking to add ~90 more points. Thanks in advance!

Lords (267)
Night Goblin Great Shaman 140
- Level 4 upgrade 35

Goblin Warboss 65
- Spear 3
- Shield 3
- Light Armor 3
- Giant Wolf 18

Heroes (213)
Night Goblin Shaman 50
- Level 2 35
- Dispel Scroll 25

Night Goblin Shaman 50

Goblin Big Boss 35
- Spear 2
- Shield 2
- Light Armor 2
- Giant Wolf 12

Core (906)
9 Goblin Wolf Riders 90
- Spears 9
- Shields 9
- Full Command 30

9 Goblin Wolf Riders 90
- Spears 9
- Shields 9
- Full Command 30

20 Night Goblins 60
- Netters 45
- 3 Fanatics 75
- Full Command 30

20 Night Goblins 60
- Netters 45
- 3 Fanatics 75
- Full Command 30

20 Night Goblins 60
- Netters 45
- 3 Fanatics 75
- Full Command 30

Special (405)
Spear Chukka 35

Spear Chukka 35

Spear Chukka 35

15 Cave Squig 120
10 Night Goblin Herder 30

15 Cave Squig 120
10 Night Goblin Herder 30

Rare (620)
Rock Lobber 85

Rock Lobber 85

Doom Diver 80

Doom Diver 80

Arachnarok Spider 290

I'm thinking that the Goblin Warboss should be the general (for higher leadership). The Warboss and Big Boss go with the Wolf Riders - their purpose is to get flank charges and tie up warmachines. Any comments or suggestions?

Siphen wrote:Lords (267)
Night Goblin Great Shaman 140
- Level 4 upgrade 35

Personally, I'd take a Common Goblin here. Level 4 Night Goblins are hilariously powerful casters (since their minimal successful casting value is a 9, and average on 2D6 Power Dice is 13-16), but they also risk a 16% chance each casting to instant-fail & concentration break / ~8% chance of wounding themselves in addition to insta-spell fail, with the regular Miscast odds to boot. Level 4 + meet-3+-on-roll is also nearly enough to cast most of the Night Goblin Spells (Since 7 nearly covers Signature, Vindictive, Gift, Itchy, and Fix It on its own).

Siphen wrote:Goblin Warboss 65
- Spear 3
- Shield 3
- Light Armor 3
- Giant Wolf 18

Be careful as this Warboss will be your army's general. Wolf Riders are probably going to be far out from your main force (meaning testing on Leadership Unit).

Siphen wrote:Heroes (213)
Night Goblin Shaman 50
- Level 2 35
- Dispel Scroll 25

Night Goblin Shaman 50

Unless you're taking this model to house the Signature Spell, or all three Shamans are supposed to have Sig unless they roll something really good, I don't think this one is particularly necessary.

Siphen wrote:Goblin Big Boss 35
- Spear 2
- Shield 2
- Light Armor 2
- Giant Wolf 12

I'd, personally, take a Great Weapon, as you are only losing I3 in return for a static +2 Strength.

Siphen wrote:Core (906)
9 Goblin Wolf Riders 90
- Spears 9
- Shields 9
- Full Command 30

9 Goblin Wolf Riders 90
- Spears 9
- Shields 9
- Full Command 30

These units won't win you any combats, even if they have a Hero / Lord thrown in with them. It'd take a flanking Sneaky Stabbin' and a remaining rank (or, in other words, no casualties) to reliably win with such a unit in close combat. You're looking at only 10 S4 and 5 S3 attacks from the unit on the charge (barring the characters' 3-4 attacks), and with your WS that's only about 3-4 wounding hits.

Siphen wrote:20 Night Goblins 60
- Netters 45
- 3 Fanatics 75
- Full Command 30

Upgrade beyond 20, unless they're only there for Fanatic Delivery / protecting the flanks for one turn (in the former case you probably don't need netters).

Siphen wrote:20 Night Goblins 60
- Netters 45
- 3 Fanatics 75
- Full Command 30

20 Night Goblins 60
- Netters 45
- 3 Fanatics 75
- Full Command 30

See above. 20 Night Goblins die fast since they're only WS2, T3, and have only a 6+ (/ 6+) save. Also, the Champion for the unit is entirely optional, and typically is not worth the 10pts (since all he provides is +1 attack and someone to eat the rare challenge of a DElf on a Dragon).

Siphen wrote:I'm thinking that the Goblin Warboss should be the general (for higher leadership). The Warboss and Big Boss go with the Wolf Riders - their purpose is to get flank charges and tie up warmachines. Any comments or suggestions?

Problem: If your Warboss is far enough ahead to charge the flanks / tie up war machines... who's providing Leadership to your three Night Goblin bricks with Ld 5 / 6 Shamans?

Good comments from Minsc, but I like the NG shaman.
The free die for casting is pretty good. You could give him the earthing rod for some miscast protection.
The naked shaman could go. The lv.4 and lv.2 will give you a good chance of getting whatever spells you want.
Last thing for your heroes; you need a BSB. Goblin LD is terrible, so the re-rolls from the BSB are crucial to your army standing around for multiple rounds of CC.

A solo hero on wolf is good enough to take on most war machines, so you don't really need to take a large escort for him; take 5 wolf riders instead.
Just get the wolf riders close enough to let the wolf-hero charge out alone into war machines, then use the wolf riders to block charge lanes, and generally stand around in the way of the enemy.

Night goblin block should be bigger, like twice the size you have now. You could drop the spear chukka for some points, as the chukka suck.

Consolidate the squig herds, and run them in a horde, these guys wreck shop.

Aracknorok spider is good, but cannon bait. If you find yourself facing a lot of cannons, drop this guy for some trolls.

Mangler squigs, try for two. They can easily pump out high str hits that your army kinda lacks, and they are tougher to kill than they look.

A few comments:

- I believe the magic mushrooms are optional for Night Gobbo shamans, not required. If you want a shaman-general, a regular goblin will give you higher Ld, but otherwise, the Night Goblin is cheaper.

- Your characters should be protected, at Ward saves preferable. Also, a BSB is nearly required. Also, the character with the highest Ld in your army (minus your BSB) must be the general, like it or not.

- I second the comments about wolves and the units of night goblins. Smaller and larger units, respectively.

- Chukka's are cheap and have potential. But they're cheap for a reason.

- Squigs used to work well in small units, but with Initiative-based combat, I think you'd be best served by one big unit.

- Mangler Squigs and Pump Wagons are smallish investments that crank out handfuls of death. I'd consider getting one or two in place of some war machines.

- The spider is cool and will draw fire, to be sure. He's less susceptible to cannons than other monsters, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. If you do swap him out, though, I would never go with trolls in a goblin army. Stupidity tests are tough.

Overall, the spiders and the wolves seem to take away from the Night-aspect of the army, but you seem to have the right take on how to run gobbos. The Fanatic Mine Field is basically the only list goblins can reliably field, since even with Steadfast, you'll probably book it quickly and often.

Thanks to everyone for their comments! A few replies and a bunch of questions:

- You're definitely correct about putting the general back with the army. It won't do any good to have my only decent leadership run ahead on a wolf. I'll stick the warboss with a horde of night gobs.
- I think you're also correct about the value of a champion in the night goblin units. 10 points for an extra attack definitely isn't worth it. And I don't think I'll ever want to accept a challenge anyway. Do other people agree with this?
- 20 Night Goblins may not be very powerful but I don't see how upgrading them to 30 or even 40 would make a big difference. I believe Night Goblins aren't there for damage output. They're there to hold up another unit for a turn or two while I get a flank charge with Squigs or something. I might take one horde and just stick all my characters in there - 40 or 50 Night Goblins with my general, the BSB, and a caster. Or is that too much in one place?

Can someone explain why Spear Chukkas are bad? They seem amazing to me. 35 points for a bolt thrower with a minor downside. If all three of them can get off only three good shots in the entire game, they'll have made back their points.

Unfortunately, the magic mushrooms are not optional. Every time you cast a spell, you must roll that D3. I'm still probably going to take it though - part of the fun of playing goblins is that things won't always work. Fanatics might spin back and destroy my entire army. The Night Goblin Shaman fits the list and it's strictly more powerful 83% of the time.

Here's a big question. If I take away the Wolf Riders, what's a good way for me to deal with Warmachines (or get flank charges)? Cannons will really hurt the spider and since goblins don't have much damage output, I really need the fast units to get flank charges. Is there something else that can fill their role?

I don't know if I'm completely sold on the horde of Squig Herders. At 10 models wide, a lot of them wouldn't even get to attack. They'll also be very difficult to maneuver. IMO, they seem to be a great counter-charge unit. Night Goblins hold up something for a turn and the Squigs charge in and finish them off. Is there an advantage that I'm missing? Why aren't they as good in smaller groups of only 15 squigs?

Phew! Sorry for the massive amount of questions. Like I said, I'm pretty new and I just want to make sure I understand why your suggestions are correct. Thanks a bunch!

Spear chukkas are good, sure they aren't as awesome as they used to be but they still have great place in a army with considerable dedicated shooting.

You are right about gobbos not really being there for damage output but i guarantee that a unit of 20 will not hold for even a single turn against even a moderate combat unit. I mean fully tooled out a unit of halberd chaos warriors will throw out 25 attacks and will do about 15 kills easily. Now with 40 gobbos you can almost ensure that you will get steadfast, whihc is the rule this army should be taking advantage of.

You can't talk about optimal in an orcs and goblins army, sometimes stuff works and sometimes it explodes in your face (one day you will fail every animosity roll in your army in one turn), so magic mushrooms definately have a place in your army, anything that can give your magic that little extra is worth it, especially becasue it works for every spell.

And squig herds can work in both ways you have brought up. A big herd horde is intimidating but very squishy. Flanking units might work, ive never seen them but you kinda need to experiment to see what works for you.

Warpsolution wrote:A few comments:

- I believe the magic mushrooms are optional for Night Gobbo shamans, not required. If you want a shaman-general, a regular goblin will give you higher Ld, but otherwise, the Night Goblin is cheaper.

I'm fairly certain you're required to use a Mushroom with every casting.

Warpsolution wrote:- Your characters should be protected, at Ward saves preferable. Also, a BSB is nearly required. Also, the character with the highest Ld in your army (minus your BSB) must be the general, like it or not.

Night Goblins aren't quite as aided from Ward gear as other armies. Armor of Destiny is only 5pts less than a second Warboss, after all.

Warpsolution wrote:- Chukka's are cheap and have potential. But they're cheap for a reason.

Besides the inclusion of the new Misfire rule and lack of Heavy Armor, they are the same as an unupgraded Dwarf Bolt Thrower. Same BS, same damage, same toughness...

Warpsolution wrote:Overall, the spiders and the wolves seem to take away from the Night-aspect of the army, but you seem to have the right take on how to run gobbos. The Fanatic Mine Field is basically the only list goblins can reliably field, since even with Steadfast, you'll probably book it quickly and often.

Don't forget Warmachine & Magic spam. Mind, even then that tends to be "slightly lessened Fanatic Mine Field w/ shooting".

Siphen wrote:- I think you're also correct about the value of a champion in the night goblin units. 10 points for an extra attack definitely isn't worth it. And I don't think I'll ever want to accept a challenge anyway. Do other people agree with this?

Pretty much the only advantage a Goblin Champion is tying up super-combat lords, and taking a challenge to save a hero / lord. If you're only housing Shamans in the unit, there's little reason to take one.

Siphen wrote: 20 Night Goblins may not be very powerful but I don't see how upgrading them to 30 or even 40 would make a big difference. I believe Night Goblins aren't there for damage output. They're there to hold up another unit for a turn or two while I get a flank charge with Squigs or something. I might take one horde and just stick all my characters in there - 40 or 50 Night Goblins with my general, the BSB, and a caster. Or is that too much in one place?

Goblins aren't meant to do damage, they're meant to remain static and steadfast. 20 Goblins will rarely even have ranks after being shot apart, let alone enough to remain Stubborn. 40, however? You practically double the ranks, meaning it's all the longer before you lose Stubborn (and thus whoever charged you will be freed up for other endeavors).

To clarify:

- Your general and your BSB need some protection since you can't have a back-up general/BSB.

- Spear Chukkas are 10pts less than an un-upgraded Dwarfen Bolt Thrower. Which are taken...never. Ever. Because they're bad. At 35pts, they're okay if there are monsters around; you stand a good chance at netting some points. Heavy cavalry are a good second target, followed by expensive infantry. But keep in mind: the Doom Diver and the Rock Lobba' are almost always a better buy, point-for-point.

- The "Fanatic Mine Field" concept generally involves war machines and magic. Squigs and chariots have made their way into things in 8th, much to my joy. But yes, war machines and magic.

- I field Bosses in my units to take chump-challenges. Most often, it doesn't usually pay off. But then again, five more goblins wouldn't have helped me in those situations either. If my Shaman survives to cast one more spell, I find those 15pts to be well spent.

- Against 20 goblins (assuming the nets work):
18 Khornate Warriors with halberds deal 11 wounds, take 1, and break them.
20 Saurus deal 4 wounds, take 1, and break them.
50 Skavenslaves in horde formation deal 5, take 3, and break them.

...and so on. 8th edition is almost always about big ol' units of Infantry. You don't need the goblins to kill guys. Just to have more ranks than the enemy so they lose combat but stay Steadfast.
Granted, goblin units shouldn't be too big because (1) Nets cut down on losses anyway and (2) even Steadfast gobbos will run away most of the time, so don't waste too many points.

- Squigs are T3 I3 and have no armour. Against a lot of enemies, a small unit will be dead before it gets to swing. A horde can suffer serious losses and still hit back. And even against units that are only 5 models wide, you've got 7 Squigs in base-to-base. That's 28 attacks versus 15. Though I'd drop the Herders down to 15, maybe 10.

- If you drop the wolves, your squigs should still serve as flankers; they don't need to be that fast to get into a combat involving your other M4 troops. As for war machines, your Spider isn't so bad at getting at those himself. Otherwise, I'd just as soon ignore them. Or get a pump wagon or two with Rigga's for an average move of 14", maybe a sail to ignore terrain. I modeled mine into Squig Chariots.

Hope that helps.

Spear Chukkas definitely shine versus Monstrous Infantry, Heavy Infantry, and Monsters, but as said each War Machine has its own niche.

Stone Throwers are pretty much "Direct hit independent monsters, War Machines, and anti-hordes": it's rare for MI to take more than one casualty / five wounds from a Stone Thrower hit (since they're wounding on 5's, hitting a handful of models, and the multi-wound's only the one under the hole). Similarly, for high toughness / high armor save (let alone both) units, it can be difficult to kill enough even with a direct hit. Large 20mm bricks (light infantry ones especially) can be shredded by a few well placed Stone Throwers, even if it takes about 2-3 turns to make up the points (you're more going for the fact that they lose Steadfast). War Machines are wounded on 2's (with a direct hit) and typically die 66% of the time they are wounded. Monsters are rarely instant-killed, but a direct hit can still suck away the majority of their wounds in a single shot (which can then be made up by standard archers / a Doom Diver / Spear Chukkas).

Bolt Throwers do good against high cost / model units that aren't immune to non-magical attacks. Chaos Knights, for instance, just need about 3ish kills for a pair of Bolt Throwers to make up their price against them. Similarly, Monstrous Infantry tend not to enjoy Bolt Throwers, since they're typically wounded on 2's, and - while not as effective as Cannons - a BT can mulch them up rather well (especially if you fire after Arrers so that you only need to do two wounds to hit the second rank instead of three). Monsters also tend to dislike BT's because - while not as effective as they once were - they can still hit them rather often, wound rather often (barring a few, most are wounded 50% or 66% of the time), and take away up to three wounds a hit (meaning a pair of lucky Spear Chukkas can drop an uninjured Giant in a single turn). Problem being that BT's rarely kill off units of anything other than MI / Monsters on their own, since you can only ever cause one hit / rank.

Oh, yeah, both of these are also good at sniping characters foolish enough to stay outside a unit. D3 / D6 wounds with no save tends to make such characters irate.

The Doom Diver... it's like a more accurate Bolt Thrower, sacrificing some effectiveness versus Monsters & Monstrous Infantry for added bonus against Cavalry and Heavy Infantry bricks. D6 wounds per impact isn't particularly many, but they're all S5 (as opposed to 6-5-4-3 of a BT, or 3(9) of a ST), and you can hit more models than there are ranks (in comparison to a BT). Furthermore, at long range, only a Misfire result should cause you much in the way of concern: Scattering can be adjusted by D3 inches, and your only goal with a DD is to touch the unit (which when added with the D3 means only 8" and 10" scatters really tend to bother you, and hopefully those can be redirected somewhere else on the opponent's battle line). Really loses out versus Monsters (only S5 and no Multi-Wound [so every individual wound may be saved for via Ward / Regen]), but otherwise it's worth its cost as what's basically a Fanatic on a Sling.

~ ~ ~

In regard to Fanatic minefields: Spear Chukkas are rather good screens to reduce the effectiveness of "Throw five hounds draw out entire line's Fanatics" tactics, as well as to ensure enemies must land on a Fanatic to charge. They're just big enough to mess with movement, but not enough to make moving around them (or moving them aside) impossible. They're T7 versus shooting, so very rarely will a Fanatic do more than kill one crew (if that). If they do die, they're 35pts, so it's not quite as big a deal as other War Machines could be.

Standard Goblin unit size I run is 36, which is enough for 6x6 Goblins. 35 (5x7), 30 (6x5 or 5x6), and such also tend to work rather well. I'd say go no more than... 40ish, Goblins, in a unit, unless it's meant to house a lot of hurt instead of simply Steadfast & Shaman-screen.

Squigs... it really depends on what you're running them for. I tend to do rather well with a 90pt brick of 9 Squigs & 6 Herders, but they're mostly there just to run a flank behind some Fast Cavalry. Fast Cavalry takes the first round's shooting, Squigs ignore the panic, second round they're typically shot again (in addition to whatever leftover shots last phase were put into them), in the end saves two turns of shooting from going into more important units. If they're ignored, they will pulp a War Machine / light shooting unit / set yourself up for a helpful flank charge, and if they're not ignored it's dirt-cheap.

One problem with Squigs is they do not like I4 or higher enemies. Anything that can strike before them will need to be flanked to properly assault with them, as all they have going for them in HtH is WS4. Any I4 or better combat unit worth its name will mulch the Squigs present unless (as mentioned by Warp) you start taking ablative wounds. By the same token, they really dislike shooting: Not a concern when they're going after the shooting units (as just three remaining Squigs and their Herders can do some hurt on shooty units), but when all you have left is 5 herders and 2 Squigs they don't look too pretty fighting Dwarf Warriors any more. If you field the units small, you're basically using them as another cheap "Soak up a few rounds of shooting / put pressure on the shooty stuff" unit that doubles as a semi-decent flanker unit. If you jack them up with Squigs, they can do some hurt in close combat (especially if remaining steadfast and in BSB / general range), but you're making a point dedication so deployment and tactics are now much more important.

The Itchy spell for -d6 Initiative, as it turns out, works really well with Squigs. as it so happens...

The Spear Chukka-fanatic screen is a really interesting concept. I would be hesitant to use it, since it's pretty wonky and they'll almost certainly get in your way as well, but the idea's a solid one.
A second choice would be what Dakka's dubbed "black goblins"; that is to say, Squig herders with no (or very few) Squigs. Squig Herds don't need any Squigs in them, technically, and while it's still sorta' up for debate, the general consensus is that these semi-fanatic gobbos will still "Go Wild" if they break from combat. Think of it as yet another Special choice.

With my Night Goblins, I've basically abandoned hand-to-hand combat all together and given them all bows. The armour from a shield has always been negligible (especially since most enemies who'd allow me an armour save are themselves weak enough for the unit to hold it's own against), and the Parry save usually equally negligible. Nets still give my gobbos a chance to win combat, but now I've got 80 arrows a turn to poke things with as well.

Final note: as said above, placement and movement are very important for a Night Goblin army. Make sure your units have enough space between them. And in the name of Mork, don't keep your Squigs near your main line. A unit of Squigs Going Wild on your blocks is bad. But each fanatic being subject to that d6? That is disastrous.

So I haven't given up on this yet! I've read your suggestions and made some changes. What do people think about this list?

Lords (485)
Goblin Great Shaman 145 (general)
- Arachnarok Spider 290
- Catchweb Spidershrine 40
- Charmed Shield 5
- Ironcurse Icon 5

Heroes (265)
Night Goblin Shaman 50
- Dispel Scroll 25

Night Goblin Shaman 50

Night Goblin Big Boss 30
- BSB 25
- Spider Banner 85

Core (706)
50 Night Goblins 150 (10 wide)
- Spears
- musician 10
- standard 10
- Netters 45
- 3 Fanatics 75

20 Night Goblins 60 (10 wide, for more shots and better Fanatic placement)
- short bows
- musician 10
- 2 Fanatics 50

20 Night Goblins 60 (10 wide)
- short bows
- musician 10
- 2 Fanatics 50

12 Goblin Spider Riders 156
- standard 10
- musician 10

Special (464)
4 Spear Chukkas 140

5 Squig Hoppers 60

12 Cave Squigs 96
6 Night Goblin Squig Herders 18 (6 wide)

3 Goblin Wolf Chariots 150

Rare (580)
Mangler Squig 65

Mangler Squig 65

Snotling Pump Wagon 45
- Spiky Roller 15

Snotling Pump Wagon 45
- Spiky Roller 15

Doom Diver Catapult 85

Doom Diver Catapult 85

Rock Lobber 80

Rock Lobber 80

Total: 2500 exactly

The plan is to hide lots of gobins behind a wall of war machines. I know lots of wide units (hordes) seems bad, but they're almost never going to move, so deployment and movement shouldn't be difficult.

When the enemy gets close, the NG Fanatics can charge through and cause some pain. In the meantime, the Squigs, Pump Wagons, Chariots, and Spider Riders will try to flank the enemy and/or hold them up while the 8 war machines do the work. The spider riders are mostly there to deal with other warmachines (poison vs toughness 7).

The Arachnarok spider is there because I love the model, but it should also give me a pretty decent magic phase. An extra 1-2 power/dispel dice per turn seems powerful (3 wizards channeling on a 4+). It also gives my general the extra range for being a large target (yay, leadership 7!). My only concern, as this applies to any mounted lord, is that a single cannon can easily kill them both (although at least the spider has 8 wounds). Is there any way to make my general (and the spider) slightly more survivable against a cannon, without spending a ton of points?

I'm a little iffy about the big Night Goblin horde - it's really expensive just for goblins. But the idea of 5+ poison attacks (poison banner + gift of the spider god) coming from 4 ranks is just too awesome...8 or 9 wounds dealt, regardless of toughness or WS.

Other than that, just general suggestions and comments would be appreciated. Thanks!