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A few friends and I are working on some Fandexes to play with. Dwarfs are on our to-do list, not because the book is terrible, but because it's so tactically inflexible now. I'll put what I've got so far here once I get back to the computer with that file on it, but in the mean time, I'd like to ask you guys for ideas on what you'd change.

Some guidelines:

- we want to keep that same stubborn, slow-but-steady feel, with semi-elite and elite-infantry and war machines that makes the Dwarf army so unique. Which means no cheap blocks of rank-and-file, no matter how much it would help the army tactically.
- ease and quickness of play is key. We don't want a dozen new units with two-dozen new rules each. A few new ideas is good. Fine-tuning of existing stuff is better.
- as one of our fellows on Dakka once said, Chaos Dwarfs are steampunk, Dwarfs are old tech, and we want to keep the changes in those lines. Nothing as crazy (or unreliable) as Chaos Dwarf stuff, and nothing too overtly magical or over-the-top (golems, steam-powered monstrous cavalry, etc. probably fit into that category).
- Runes will be gone. Dwarfs will have access to common magic items and thier own supply like everyone else, and to the Lore of Runes. Before a million and one complaints arise to such a plan, I will say that (1) the feel will not deviate from the current GW army book, so it's not as big a change as it seems, and (2) don't bother arguing the point in this thread anyway. Our minds are made up.
- what we've currently done emphasizes on Dwarf manueverability, via Rangers and Miners, with some options dealing with terrain. This is the way we're thinking of going, to deviate from the war machine/infantry line-up of the current book. If anyone else has other options, let us know.

Again, we're not doing this to make the Dwarf book better, necessarily (though some units will come out looking more viable). We just want to give them a few more options.

Here it is:

Dwarfs

Army-wide rules:

Ancestral Grudge: Dwarfs hold grudges for a very long time, possibly forever. They have never forgiven the fall of their strongholds at the hands of the greenskins and the Skaven.
Units with this special rule hate Orcs, Goblins, and Skaven.

Resolute: Dwarfs fight with grim determination and are reluctant to abandon their position.
Units with this special rule flee and pursue 2d6-1”.

Relentless: A Dwarf on the march is as implacable as the turning of the years, and just as impossible to halt. Dwarfs are surefooted and sturdy, never ceasing and never tiring.
Units with this special rule are never march-blocked, and they never have to make a Dangerous Terrain test.

Shield Wall: Countless hordes and armies have smote themselves on a Dwarf battle line, an unbreakable wall of interlocking shields and steely will.
Units with this special rule are treated as defending an obstacle (enemy units lose all benefits from charging and are at a -1 to shoot) if charged in their front arc, as long as they are not engaged to their flanks or rear.

Special Rules:

Artillery Master: Master Engineers can direct a war machine crew with a skill born of intimate familiarity with the workings of each device.
A Master Engineer may join a war machine as if it were a unit composed of five or more infantry models (note, the Master Engineer adds two Wounds and Two attacks, instead of one). The war machine he joins gains the following benefit:

• You may re-roll the Arillery die of a Grudge Thrower or Flame Cannon.
• Add an extra Artillery die to the bounce of a Cannon, ignoring a Misfire!
• If only one die results in a Misfire! when firing an Organ Gun, it is ignored.

Artillery Specialist: Engineers can direct a war machine crew with a skill born of great familiarity with the workings of their chosen device.
A war machine with an Engineer is treated as having a unit champion, gaining +1 Wound and +1 Attack. The war machine gains the following benefit:

• You may re-roll the result of a Misfire for a Grudge Thrower, or Cannon.

Bodyguard: Hammerers are selected from the steadiest and most resolute Dwarfs.
If a unit of Hammerers contains a Dwarf Lord, they are immune to Fear, Terror, and Panic.

Entrenchment: a Dwarf army contains many skilled workers that can be put to good use by a Master Engineer.
For every Master Engineer and for every time this upgrade is purchased, one unit may be entrenched. Entrenched units are treated as defending an obstacle to their front arc, and are in hard cover. Any move besides a reform maneuver results in the entrenchment being lost for the rest of the battle.

Indestructible: the sacred Anvils of Doom are priceless heirlooms from the days of Grimnir, and are protected by the most potent of magics.
An Anvil of Doom has a 4+ Ward save and Magic Resistance (3).

Glorious Death: Slayers thirst for battle with horrifying foes, so they may die with an axe or two in hand, and regain their lost honor.
A Slayer must declare a charge against the nearest unit of war beasts, monstrous infantry, monstrous cavalry, monsters, or unique models within his line of sight, unless he passes a successful Leadership test. If this test is past, the Slayer must move as close to the unit as it can this movement phase.
In addition, if a Slayer is killed in a close combat phase before he has attacked, he may resolve his attacks as if he were still on the table.

Gyrocopters: Engineers often replace a zeppelin’s boiler and air sachets with a set of rune or steam-driven props that lift the craft into the air. These improved designs are much faster than their predecessors, if a bit noisier.
Gyrocopters lose the Hover and Scout special rules and gains the Fly and Vanguard special rules.

Loner: Only the toughest Slayers survive, so it can be fairly certain that any Dwarf who has ascended through the Slayer ranks is exceptionally tough, violent, and psychopathically dangerous.
Daemon Slayers and Dragon Slayers may only join units of Troll Slayers or Giant Slayers, and may never be the army general.

Old Grumblers: Longbeards tend to look down their beards at younger Dwarfs, and always expect the worst, spending a long time grumbling about the inadequacies of Dwarfs/weapons/Goblins these days, as they’re not as brave/well-made/scary as they were in the olden days. In their turn, younger Dwarfs pay dutiful attention to the words of their elders.
Longbeards are Immune to Fear, Terror, and Panic. Any friendly Dwarf unit within 6” of a non-fleeing unit of Longbeards may re-roll failed Fear, Terror, and Panic tests.

Royal Blood: when the Dwarf Lords march to war, the warriors in their throng are the very finest and most revered in the hold.
If a Dwarf Lord joins a unit with the Body Guard special rule, he gains the Stubborn special rule, and is immune to Fear, Terror, and Panic. An army with a Dwarf Lord General may ignore the limit on Longbeards.

Rune Lore: the Dwarfs distrust the fickle winds of magic, preferring to bind it in metal, wood, and bone with the art they call Runesmithing. While not as devastating to their foes, the number of times a Runesmith has wreaked havoc within his own lines are few indeed; a boast the more foolish races cannot hope to match.
Runelords and Runesmiths are wizards, but may never attempt to channel power dice. They can channel dispel dice on a 5+.

Runic Tattoos: the intricate symbols and patterns that cover a Slayer’s body are infused with runic magic, ensuring that these brooding warriors will fall at the hands of a worthy foe, and not before.
A model with this special rule has Magic Resistance (3) and a 4+ Ward save, except against wounds caused by close combat attacks.

Slayer: all Dwarfs who wear the orange crest have an uncanny ability that makes them particularly effective against especially tough opponents.
Slayers are treated as having sufficient strength to wound war beasts, monstrous infantry, monstrous cavalry, monsters, and unique type units on a 4+, up to a maximum of strength 6, before bonuses from weapons.

Slayer Axes: Slayers are skilled with all manner of axes and carry them wherever they go.
Slayers are equipped with throwing axes, and may choose whether to fight with two hand weapons or one great weapon at the beginning of each combat phase.

Underground Advance: Miners are famous for using their extensive knowledge of underground tunnels to make their way to the enemy’s rear or turn up on the battlefield where they are needed most.
Miners do not have to be deployed as normal. Instead, roll a dice at the start of the owning player’s turns, consulting the table below to see if they arrive. In the movement phase of the turn they arrive, Miners can enter the battlefield from any table edge, as if they had pursued a fleeing unit off the table the previous turn.

Turn Arrives on…
1 —
2 4+
3 3+
4 2+
5 Automatically


Special Equipment:

Blasting Charges: Miners are extremely skilled in the art of using black powder to blast their way to mineral deposits. Needless to say, something this destructive can be useful in a tight spot during a battle or siege.
Miners with this upgrade do not have to be deployed as normal. Instead, after regular deployment and scouts, place a small marker anywhere on the battlefield. Roll a die at the beginning of the controlling player’s turns, following the rules for the Underground Advance special rule. At the beginning of the turn the unit arrives on, place the small round template centered over the marker and scatter it as you would a shot from a stone thrower. Any model touched by the template takes a S4 hit. Place a piece of Dangerous Terrain where the template landed, 3” in diameter, and the Miners anywhere within 1” of the template. The unit may then act normally, including declaring a charge. If a Misfire is rolled on the artillery die, something has gone wrong. Roll on the table below:

d6 Result
1 Cave-in!
Every model in the unit must make a Strength check, or be removed as a casualty, with no saves allowed.
2-3 I said left at the last fork!
The unit cannot act this turn.
4-5 I said right at the last fork!
The opposing player may place the template anywhere on the table. Scatter it again, ignoring further Misfires.
6 Too much powder!
Place the large round template over the marker. Every model touched by the template—and every model in the unit with Blasting Charges—takes a Strength 5 hit.


Dwarf Handgun/Pistol: the blackpowder weapons used by Dwarfs are vastly superior in design and craftsmanship compared to the crude devices used by the other races.
These weapons function exactly as their common counterparts in the Warhammer Rulebook, but are at +1 to hit.

Grenades: Master Engineers often carry small explosives into battle.
A Master Engineer with this upgrade gains a shooting attack with a range of 6” that causes d6 Strength 5 Armour Piercing hits and has the Quick to Fire special rule.

Gromil Armour: armour made from the metal known as gromil is the toughest and sturdiest in the known world. Known variously as meteoric iron, Silverstone and hammernought, gromil armour is worn by the finest (or wealthiest) of the Dwarf throng.
Gromil armour grants a 4+ armour save, while gromil shields grant a 5+.

Gromil Plating: some Dwarf aircraft are reinforced with rune-encrusted gromil armour.
Models with this special rule have an armour save of 4+

Landmines: before a battle, Master Engineers will bury stone jars filled with black powder and volatile chemicals at key points on the field. These devices are sealed with wax and runes, but even a gentle tough could result in catastrophe.
A Master Engineer may purchase this upgrade up to five times. Before deployment and for each time this upgrade is taken, pick a point on the table, making a note of it in secret (recording the point’s distance from obstacles and table edges is recommend, to avoid confusion). If at any point a unit moves over this point (units with the fly special rule only trigger it if they end their move directly on it), roll a d6. On a 1, the mine is a dud, and nothing happens. On a 2+, however, the model directly over the point takes a Strength 5 Armour Piercing hit (no Look Out, Sir! roll can be taken). The unit must then make a Dangerous Terrain test.

Oath Stone: when a Dwarf goes to war, he carries the honor of clan and hold with him, and he will do them credit, or not return at all. To demonstrate their intent, some Dwarfs take an Oath stone with them, a carefully sculpted plinth on which his lineage and deeds are carved.
In an army containing a character with this item, a unit of Warriors, Longbeards, Hammerers, or Ironbreakers must be nominated as the Stonebearers, before deployment. The character must be deployed in this unit and can never leave it. The unit gains Magic Resistance (1) from the mystical qualities of the Oath stone. Furthermore, a unit of Stonebearers may “set the stone” as part of a Hold charge reaction. Once the stone is set, every side of the Stonebearers unit is considered a front arc, and the unit cannot move in any way, except to break from combat. The character must issue and accept challenges, and is worth his Victory Points if at any point he flees from combat.

Shieldbearers: a Dwarf General is often carried to atop a shield, held by two loyal (and strong) retainers.
A Dwarf Lord with this upgrade counts as two models for purposes of determining ranks. He also receives a +2 to his armour save.

Steam Drill: these pieces of mining equipment are also of use on the battlefield. A small steam engine, usually alcohol-powered, is used to drive the hammer with such force that it can punch through rock with ease.
A model with this item is treated as having a great weapon that grants +3 Strength instead of +2. A unit with this item may re-roll the d6 to determine when they arrive using the Underground Advance and Blasting Charges special deployment rules, as well as the artillery die used to place the template with the Blasting Charges special rule.

Steam Gun: many zeppelins and gyrocopters are armed with steam guns that unleash a hail of lead bullets.
A model with this upgrade gains a shooting attack. To fire the steam gun, place the flame template in the model’s front arc, with the narrow end touching the barrel of the gun. Any models touched take a Strength 3 Armour Piercing hit. A model that marched may not fire a steam gun.

Thundercasks: Engineers understand demolitions on a remarkable level, and their zeppelins are usually laden with small iron-ringed barrels filled with pressurized tar and blackpowder, ready to be ignited and dropped onto hapless foes below.
A model with this upgrade gains a shooting attack. During the movement phase, place a marker at any point along the Zeppelin’s move. During the shooting phase, scatter the template as a stone thrower. Any model touched takes a S3 Armour Piercing hit, while a model under the center hole takes a Strength 6 hit with the multiple wounds (d3) special rule. A unit that takes one or more casualties from a thundercask must take a Panic test. If a Misfire is rolled, consult the table below. Zeppelins and Gyrocopters are immune to the effects of their own Thundercasks, except from Misfires.

d6 Result
1 Ka-Boom!
The bomb detonates while still on board, igniting several more along the way. The Zeppelin takes d6 S5 hits.
2-4 Short Fuse
The Thundercask detonates harmlessly in the air.
5 A Dud?
Any model at the center of the template takes a single S6 hit. Place a marker at the center of the template. Roll a d6 at the start of each player’s turn. On a 6+, the bomb detonates as per a successful shot.
6 Oops!
The Engineer dropped a few extra Thundercasks as well. Resolve d3-1 more shots, ignoring further Misfire! or Hit! results.

Lords:

Dwarf Lord 145pts
Dwarf Lord M3 WS7 BS4 S4 T5 W3 I4 A4 Ld10
Shield Bearers M3 WS5 BS3 S4 T4 W- I3 A2 Ld9
Equipment: hand weapon and gromil armour
Additional Equipment
• gromil shield +6pts
(One choice only)
• great weapon +6pts
• Dwarf pistol +10pts
(One choice only)
• crossbow +10pts
• Dwarf handgun +15pts
• Oath Stone +20pts
(Army General only)
• Shieldbearers +25pts
• May select magic items from the Common Magic Items and Ancient Runes lists, up to 125pts.
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Resolute, Relentless, Royal Blood, Shield Wall

Runelord 195pts
M3 WS5 BS4 S4 T5 W3 I2 A2 Ld9
Additional Equipment
• Level 4 wizard +35pts
• gromil shield +6pts
• great weapon +6pts
• crossbow +10pts
• Anvil of Doom +150pts
• May select magic items from the Common Magic Items and Ancient Runes lists, up to 125pts.
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Resolute, Relentless, Rune Lore, Shield Wall

Daemonslayer 100pts
M3 WS7 BS5 S5 T6 W3 I5 A5 Ld10
• May select magic items from the Common Magic Items and Ancient Runes lists, up to 125pts.
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Glorious Death, Hatred, Resolute, Relentless, Runic Tattoos, Skirmish, Slayer, Slayer Axes, Unbreakable

Heroes:

Thane 65pts
M3 WS6 BS4 S4 T5 W2 I3 A3 Ld9
Equipment: hand weapon and gromil armour
Additional Equipment
• gromil shield +3pts
(One choice only)
• great weapon +3pts
• Dwarf pistol +5pts
(One choice only)
• crossbow +5pts
• Dwarf handgun +10pts
• Oath Stone +15pts
• May select magic items from the Common Magic Items and Ancient Runes lists, up to 75pts.
• One Thane may carry the army battle standard for +25pts. He may have a runic banner (no points limit), but cannot carry any other Runic item.
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Resolute, Relentless, Shield Wall

Runesmith 80pts
M3 WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I2 A2 Ld9
Additional Equipment
• Level 2 wizard +35pts
• gromil shield +3pts
• great weapon +2pts
• crossbow +5pts
• May select magic items from the Common Magic Items and Ancient Runes lists, up to 75pts.
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Resolute, Relentless, Rune Lore, Shield Wall

Master Engineer 50pts
M3 WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I2 A2 Ld9
Additional Equipment
• Dwarf pistol +5pts
• brace of Dwarf pistols +10pts
• crossbow +5pts
• Dwarf handgun +10pts
• great weapon +4pts
• grenades +25pts
• landmines +25pts each
• entrenchment +20pts per unit
• May select magic items from the Common Magic Items and Ancient Runes lists, up to 50pts.
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Artillery Master, Entrenchment, Resolute, Relentless, Shield Wall

Dragonslayer 50pts
M3 WS6 BS5 S4 T5 W3 I4 A4 Ld10
• May select magic items from the Common Magic Items and Ancient Runes lists, up to 75pts.
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Glorious Death, Hatred, Resolute, Relentless, Runic Tattoos, Skirmish, Slayer, Slayer Axes, Unbreakable

Core:

Dwarf Warriors 8pts
Warrior M3 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Veteran M3 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A2 Ld9
Longbeard M3 WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Longbeard Veteran M3 WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I2 A2 Ld9
Unit Size: 10+
Equipment: hand weapon, heavy armour, and shield.
• great weapons +2pts/model
• Upgrade one Warrior to a musician +5pts
• Upgrade one Warrior to a standard bearer +10pts
• Upgrade one Warrior to a Veteran +10pts
• Upgraded to Longbeards* +2pts/model.
*You cannot have more units of Longbeard Warriors than Warriors.
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Old Grumblers (Longbeards only), Resolute, Relentless, Shield Wall

Quarrellers 10pts
Quarreller M3 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Veteran M3 WS4 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Longbeard M3 WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Longbeard Veteran M3 WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Unit Size: 10+
Equipment: crossbow, hand weapon, light armour, and shield.
• great weapons +2pts/model

• Upgrade one Quarreler to a musician +5pts
• Upgrade one Quarreler to a standard bearer +10pts
• Upgrade one Quarreler to a Veteran +5pts
• Upgraded to Longbeards* +2pts/model.
*You cannot have more units of Longbeard Quarrelers than Quarrelers.
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Old Grumblers (Longbeards only), Resolute, Relentless, Shield Wall

Rangers +1pt/model
Unit Size: 5+
Additional Equipment: throwing axes
• Skirmish +1pt/model
*Units of Warriors or Quarrelers equipped with great weapons may be upgraded to Rangers. You cannot have more units of Warrior Rangers than Warriors, nor Quarreler Rangers than Quarrelers. Rangers do not count towards the units of Warriors or Quarrelers necessary to field Longbeards, but units of Longbeard Rangers count as Longbeards.
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Old Grumblers (Longbeards only), Resolute, Relentless, Scout, Shield Wall

Thunderers 11pts
Thunderer M3 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Veteran M3 WS4 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Longbeard M3 WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Longbeard Veteran M3 WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Unit Size: 10+
Equipment: dwarf handgun, hand weapon, light armour, and shield.
• Upgrade one Thunderer to a musician +5pts
• Upgrade one Thunderer to a standard bearer +10pts
• Upgrade one Thunderer to a Veteran +5pts
• Upgraded to Longbeards* +2pts/model.
*You cannot have more units of Longbeard Thunderers than Thunderers.
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Old Grumblers (Longbeards only), Resolute, Relentless, Shield Wall

Special:

Hammerers 12pts
Hammerer M3 WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Gate Keeper M3 WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Equipment: great weapon, hand weapon, heavy armour, and shield.
• Upgrade one Hammerer to a musician +6pts
• Upgrade one Hammerer to a standard bearer +12pts
• Upgrade one Hammerer to a Gate Keeper +12pts
Magic standard up to 50pts
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Bodyguard, Resolute, Relentless, Shield Wall, Stubborn

Cannon 90pts
Cannon M3 WS0 BS0 S0 T7 W3 I0 A0 Ld0
Crew member M3 WS3 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Engineer M3 WS3 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Equipment: hand weapon, light armour
• Add an Engineer to the crew +10pts
• May bear Engineering Runes, up to 50pts.
• Brace of pistols (Engineer only) +5pts
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge

Bolt Thrower 45pts
Bolt Thrower M3 WS0 BS0 S0 T7 W3 I0 A0 Ld0
Crew member M3 WS3 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Engineer M3 WS3 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Equipment: hand weapon, light armour
• Add an Engineer to the crew +10pts
• May bear Engineering Runes, up to 50pts.
• Brace of pistols (Engineer only) +5pts
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge

Miners 11pts
Miner M3 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Prospector M3 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A2 Ld9
Equipment: great weapon, hand weapon, heavy armour
• Upgrade one Miner to a Musician +5pts
• Upgrade one Miner to a Standard Bearer +10pts
• Upgrade one Miner to a Prospector +10pts
• Blasting charges +50pts
• Steam drill (Prospector only) +25pts
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Resolute, Relentless, Shield Wall, Stubborn, Underground Advance

Ironbreakers 15pts
Ironbreaker M3 WS5 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I2 A2 Ld9
Ironbeard M3 WS5 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I2 A3 Ld9
Equipment: hand weapon, gromil armour and shield
• Upgrade one Ironbreaker to a Musician +7pts
• Upgrade one Ironbreaker to a Standard Bearer +14pts
• Upgrade one Ironbreaker to an Ironbeard +14pts
• Magic standard up to 50pts
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Immune to Psychology, Resolute, Relentless, Shield Wall, Stubborn

Grudge Thrower 80pts
Grudge Thrower M3 WS0 BS0 S0 T7 W3 I0 A0 Ld0
Crew member M3 WS3 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Engineer M3 WS3 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Equipment: hand weapon, light armour
• Add an Engineer to the crew 10pts
• Brace of pistols (Engineer only) +5pts
• May bear Engineering Runes, up to 50pts.
Special Rules:
Indirect Fire

Rare:

Flame Cannon 140pts
Flame Cannon M3 WS0 BS0 S0 T6 W3 I0 A0 Ld0
Crew member M3 WS3 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Engineer M3 WS3 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
The Flame Cannon is crewed by three Dwarfs and an Engineer
Equipment: hand weapon, light armour
• Brace of pistols (Engineer only) +5pts
• May bear Engineering Runes, up to 50pts.
Special Rules:
The Flame Cannon is fired in the same manner as a fire thrower in the Warhammer main rulebook, except that the Flame Cannon may place the flame template anywhere within 12” in its line of sight, rather than at the end of its barrel.

Organ Gun 120pts
Organ Gun M3 WS0 BS0 S0 T7 W3 I0 A0 Ld0
Crew member M3 WS3 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Engineer M3 WS3 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
The Organ Gun is crewed by three Dwarfs and an Engineer
• Brace of pistols (Engineer only) +5pts
• May bear Engineering Runes, up to 50pts.
Special Rules:
To fire the Organ Gun, roll two artillery dice. Unless both dice result in a Misfire!, you may re-roll these dice, though you must accept the second result. The Organ Gun fires shots equal to the total rolled, unless one of the results was a Misfire!. Roll to hit as normal. The Organ Gun does not suffer a penalty for shooting at long range, through cover, or multiple shots.

Zeppelin 80pts
Zeppelin M0 WS0 BS0 S0 T5 W3 I0 A0 Ld0
Engineer M3 WS3 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9
Equipment: hand weapon
• Upgrade to Gyrocopter +20pts
• Gromil plating +15pts
• Steam gun +25pts
• Thundercasks +25pts
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Armour Save (6+), Flying Cavalry, Hover, Scout, Swiftstride

Special Rules:

Slayers 18pts
Troll Slayer M3 WS4 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I3 A2 Ld10
Giant Slayer M3 WS5 BS4 S4 T5 W1 I4 A3 Ld10
Unit size: 5+
Equipment: hand weapon
• Upgrade any number of models to Giant Slayers +7pts/model
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Glorious Death, Hatred, Resolute, Relentless, Runic Tattoos, Skirmish, Slayer, Slayer Axes, Unbreakable

The Anvil of Doom

The Anvils of Doom are the most ancient heirlooms of the Dwarf race. It is on these anvils that the greatest of weapons in the Old Wolrd have been forged. Each anvil is covered in runes that the smiths of today’s age cannot begin to fathom. When striking runes on the anvil, each Runelord uses techniques taught to him by his master that were in turn taught to him by his master and so on, back to the dawn of time. Because of this, no two Anvils function exactly the same. Their mystic powers are dedicated to Grimnir, Grungni, and Valaya, the Dwarf ancestor gods of fury, persistence, and loyalty.

Anvil of Doom M0 WS0 BS0 S0 T10W7 I0 A0 Ld0
Rune Guard M3 WS5 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld10
Equipment (Rune Guard only): Hand weapon, gromil armour
Special Rules:
Ancestral Grudge, Indestructible, Unbreakable

The Anvil of Doom is crewed by a Runelord and four Rune Guards.
A Runelord with the Anvil of Doom has the Loremaster special rule and can ignore the range restrictions on any spell (including requiring line of sight), as well as the first miscast of each magic phase.
The Anvil of Doom adds two dispel dice to the owning player’s dispel pool.

Ancient Runes:

Magic Weapons:

The Axe of Alaric the Mad- 125pts
This dark, mirror-polished axe was one of Alaric’s greatest and final works, surpassing the Runefangs and perhaps even rivaling Ghal-Maraz or the Axe of Grimnir.
Great weapon. The wielder receives a +1 to hit. In addition, the wielder is always treated as having a Strength score of his target’s Toughness+2. No armour saves may be taken against wounds caused by the Axe of Alaric the Mad.

The Hammer of Skalf Blackhammer- 60pts
A heavy, anvil-headed warhammer, this ancient device is as potent binding magic into runes as it is in battle, and it still glows red and white, as if fresh from the forge.
The wielder has +1 Attack and the Flaming Attacks special rule. Every time the wielder successfully hits and wounds, the victim’s armour, shield and any special or magic they carry are destroyed on a 4+ (roll separately for each item).

Magic Armour:

The Master Rune of Gromil- 55pts
These full suits of gromil plate are precious heirlooms, beautiful and ornate, yet sturdy enough to ensure their wearer’s survival in a cave-in.
This armour grants a 1+ armour save, and allows the wearer to re-roll failed armour saves.

Starbreaker Bulwark- 30pts
The High King Gotrek Starbreaker had a suit of armour inlaid with similar runes, allowing him to stand a charge against the High Elve’s heavy cavalry and chariots without so much as a scratch.
Gromil armour and shield. The wearer and any unit he joins is treated as if he were defending an obstacle. The wearer has hard cover.

Rune of Stone- 5pts
A common rune for apprentice smiths to prove their skill, the Rune of Stone can be easily engraved onto shields, armour, and helms.
This armour adds +1 to the wearer’s armour save.

Magic Standards:

Runic Standard of Stromni Redbeard- 140pts
Stromni Redbeard made this standard in the days of Bael, Lord of Karak Azul. It was first carried into battle by the throng of Durgin, son of Grindol, son of Grimnir.
Grants +1 combat resolution to any combat involving friendly Dwarf units within 12”. Models in a unit with this standard receive a +1 to hit.

Strollaz’s Banner of the Underway- 100pts
This ancient rune-standard is covered in tallow candles and oil lanterns, lighting the way for the Dwarf throng. The Dwarfs are already of a tireless nature, but under this banner’s enchantments, they are willing to march day and night to come to grips with their foe.
After deployment, all friendly Dwarf units within 24” of this banner may make an immediate move (not a charge). Units that make this move count as having moved during the first turn for purposes of shooting. Models in a unit with this standard have a 4+ Ward save against shooting attacks and direct damage spells.

Ancestor’s Standard- 50pts
Many holds carry a rune-laden banner into battle, to tell their enemies of their bravery and strength, and to remind themselves of their honor and heritage.
The unit rolls 3d6 for Leadership tests, ignoring the highest.

Talismans:

Rune of Fate- 55pts
These seemingly simple runes are notoriously difficult to create. The device that bears these runes—usually a ring or amulet—can bind fickle luck itself to be a bit less fickle.
A model with this item may re-roll a single d6 each turn. This may be a roll to Hit or Wound, as well as an armour or Ward save or one of the dice for a psychology test or break test.

Master Rune of Kingship- 45pts
There are few of these marvelous runes left, each engraved into a gem-encrusted crown of gold. The Dwarf Lords who wear these artefacts will fight on, no matter the odds, and inspire their fellows to do the same, for the honor of their ancestors.
Dwarf Lord only. Grants the Stubborn special rule to the bearer and any unit he joins. If the unit has the Bodyguard special rule, the model and the unit are Unbreakable instead.

Rune of Preservation- 15pts
A common rune, often embroidered into cloaks, belts, and gloves, this humble yet potent magic protects its wearer from grievous harm and underhanded trickery.
The special rules Killing Blow and Poisoned Attacks have no effect on the wearer.

Arcane Items:

The Spelleater- 70pts
This great iron bowl is ringed with ancient runes, the creation of most now long forgotten. The Spelleater draws the winds of magic, into itself, leaving enemy wizards feeble and sick.
Enemy wizards within 18” of the bearer discard 6’s on any casting roll when determining the casting value of the spell (they still trigger Irresistible Force).

Master Rune of Balance- 55pts
These runes are usually inscribed into books or carved stones, redirecting the winds of magic away from the enemy’s wizards to power the runes of the Dwarfs.
During the enemy’s magic phase, after all power and dispel dice have been generated, subtract one die from the power pool and add one to the dispel pool.

Runestaff- 35pts
Dwarfs are renowned for their innate resistance to the corrupting effects of magic, but Runesmiths carry that resistance to unearthly levels with these sigil-covered staffs.
Grants a +1 to dispel attempts.

Enchanted Items:

Bugman’s XXXXXX- 50pts
Casks of Bugman’s original vintages are three times rarer than gold, and worth ten times their weight in it.
One use only. Before the close combat phase of a Dwarf turn, if the bearer has not moved (besides a reform maneuver), the bearer may imbibe Bugman’s XXXXXX, allowing him and any other character in the unit may regain any lost wounds, while the unit may regain d6+1 wounds. The bearer and any unit he joins is immune to Fear, Terror and Panic.

Horn of Challenge- 30pts
The carefully carved hunting horns of the Dwarf Rangers are commonly infused with rune-magic, to better warn their fellows and impede their enemies.
Bound spell (power level 4). Contains the spell Tomb and Trial.


Runic Lore- Grudge Magic, Wordlore, Sigil-Carving
Ancient Power (Lore Attribute)
Runesmiths binding the Winds of Magic into runes before battle, releasing their latent energies when needed. This process is difficult and time-consuming to the extreme, but the Dwarfs find the results to be to their liking.
If the wizard Miscasts, he may modify the result by up to 1d3.

Runewall (Signature Spell) Cast on 6+
A small stone from the steps of one of the Great Holds, inlaid with the runes of Valaya, can cause the rock where it falls to rise up before the Dwarf line like a second shield.
Runewall is an augment spell that is cast on the wizard and his unit. Their armour save improves by 1 until the start of the caster’s next magic phase.

1. Hearth and Hold Cast on 7+
The Runesmith commands the earth itself, as a brother and friend to all Dwarfs, to stand aside and let them pass.
Hearth and Hold is an augment with a range of 12”. The target unit gains the Strider special rule, and treats natural impassible terrain as open ground until the start of the caster’s next magic phase. The caster can choose to affect all units within 12”. If he does so, the casting value of Hearth and Hold increases to 14+.

2. Gold and Glory Cast on 7+
With a clenched gauntlet and a ringing shout, the Runesmith fills the hearts of his kin with a pride in their ancestors, and a hunger to match them in honor and plunder.
Gold and Glory is an augment with a range of 24”. The target unit may make a move at the start of the shooting phase. This may be a charge. The caster can choose to extend the range to 48”. If he does so, the casting value of Gold and Glory increases to 10+.

3. Cinder and Sunder Cast on 7+
The Runesmith reaches out to his work, written on axe blades and shield faces all around, awakening great power in even the most minor of runes.
Cinder and Sunder is an augment that is cast on the wizard and his unit. The any attacks the target unit makes have the Flaming Attacks special rule and Magic Resistance (2). The caster can choose to affect all units within 12”. If he does so, the casting value of Cinder and Sunder increases to 14+.

4. Tomb and Trial Cast on 8+
Faced with impossible odds, the Runesmith calls to his clan, leading them in their Death Song, so they may face the end with dignity and pride.
Tomb and Trial is an augment with a range of 24”. The target unit gains the Unbreakable and Fear special rules. At the end of the game, the opposing player is awarded victory points as if they had destroyed this unit, even if the unit survived. The caster can choose to increase the spells range to 48”. If he does so, the casting value of Tomb and Trial increases to 12+

5. Wrath and Ruin Cast on 8+
The Runesmith smites the ground with his hammer, the earth cracking and splitting before his strike, until the ground beneath his foe bursts forth in elemental fury, leaving charred desolation in its wake.
Wrath and Ruin is a direct damage spell with a range of 24”. Place the small round template anywhere within range—it then template scatters d6”. Any unit touched by the template takes d6 S4 hits. Place a piece of dangerous terrain where the template resolved. The caster may choose to use the large template instead, causing 2d6 S4 hits. If he does so, the casting value of Wrath and Ruin increases to a 16+.

6. Oath and Honor Cast on 12+
Oath and Honor is an augment spell that affects all units within 18”. All friendly Dwarf units within the spell’s range gain +2 Toughness until the start of the caster’s next magic phase. The caster can choose to increase the bonus to +4. If he does so, the casting value of Oath and Honor increases to 24+.

No on ignoring Dangeorus Terrain. Chaos Dwarfs who live surrounded by magma still have to take them. It's a weapon specifically of Gnoblars, who count as greenskins. And it's a spell of the little waagh. I.e., they wouldn't have ever used that stuff if their primary enemy was immune to it. Snotwagons pay about 1/9th their total value to be immune to it. It's far too beneficial.

No on hating Skaven. That would be 2 entire army books of hatred as well as a smattering of units here and there. That's just way too good. The existing Dwarf abilities are absolutely fine.

No on shield wall. First off, the type of obstacle has to be defined. But it's crazy good to have a permanent -1 to be shot and negate charging bonuses. You didn't even give up anything for it. Just all dwarfs can't be shot. Their shield wall is their toughness and armor and point cost. That's already factored in. This is really unbelievably overpowered. It's like the Heaven signature spell except instead of 1 target it applies to everyone on the board always. The existing Dwarf abilities are absolutely fine. -1 BS on a slowbo shooty army is like -1 WS on a melee army. WoC has to pay 30pt premium per unit to get that and you're getting it for free. Way over the top.

No. Just no. Master engineers... They can't join machines. That was changed years ago. If we used your rule a Dwarf Cannon would be T6 W5 ignoring misfires. That's jumping the shark and turning around and jumping it again with your evil twin sister. Heroes/Lords don't join war machines where they can no longer be targetted, challenged, whatever. They removed that because it's too weird. You're not ignoring misfires. That's about as valid as casters ignoring miscasts--and you're making it every round always.

You made longbeards cost 2 points. Which is the bonus they give to (good) attributes. And now you can take them for xbows and gunners and have BS4, -1 to be shot archers.

Ironbreakers. WS5, S4, T4, A2, ITP, ShieldWall, Stubborn. 15 points. I.e., Chaos Warriors with a shield, ITP and Stubborn and can't be shot.

Flame Cannon doesn't have to roll where template goes. Cuz, you know, it's not that every war machine in existence has to do that, including every implementation of fire throwers from magma cannons to warpfire throwers.


I might come back to the rest. But so far you've made an army that can't be shot and can't misfire and has practically indestructible war machines. And you made it so you can entrench regular units which makes them -2 to hit. At this point, there is no reason to not build a dwarf gunline. They will beat any army shooting easily. But you made your ranged troops vastly vastly more powerful and Dwarfs were not bad shooters. They were really good shooters. I haven't seen anything that was given up to provide all these buffs. Dwarfs aren't Wood Elves. And even if they were they weren't bad at the stuff you made a whole lot better. All the other stuff got better and cheaper that I've seen. Nearly every unit. Got more options, cheaper, better. Add all that together and this version of Dwarfs would beat the everliving snot out of the old Dwarfs. And if the old (current) Dwarfs are just shy of the competitive side, these guys would catapult to the absolute top.

While I think you have valid points, Duke, I do notice that you say "No" an awful lot in this subforum . Probably worth giving some constructive feedback, too, given the amount of work put into the above (and there must be something you like out of it ).

OP: I love the idea of more dwarf aircraft, rather than just the gyrocopter! With GW's love of flyers in 40k, maybe that won't be a pipe dream forever, either

@Duke: allow me to address some things.
- these are all working ideas, not necessarily to be used all at once.

- the Dangerous Terrain thing hasn't come up often in our playtests, and you raise many a valid point. Any, ya' know, suggestions on how to capture that sort of sturdy, sure-footed feel in a more minor way?

- Dwarfs Hating Skaven makes sense and isn't that big of a deal. I've done many a playtest, and Skaven don't usually seem to mind too much. "Ancestral Grudge" ought to apply to those enemies that the Dwarfs actually have, not just half of them.

- I was never happy with the Shield Wall mechanic, to be honest. I'm trying to find something that makes the hand weapon/shield choice actually worth considering, especially since, according to Dwarf history, it's their Absolute #1 Tactic.
But, while these rules make sense literally (the Shield Wall replicates an actual wall), they improve Dwarf strengths while not addressing their weaknesses, which is obviously a problem.
Someone recently suggested that the whole thing be replaced by a 5+ Parry. An 8pt model with T4 and a 4+/5+ may not be as tempting as 10pts for S5 and a 5+, but maybe it'll see play sometime?

- On Master Engineers: sorry, a bit of confusion. You get to roll an extra Artillery die on the cannon's bounce, ignoring a Misfire! on this die, not always. That would be silly, as you say.
Master Engineers joining war machines was my attempt to make things simpler, since Runelords still do, Engineers do, but Master Engineers don't, etc. Also, it would have stopped those situations where people wanted to put three machines by one Master Engineer and have him shout his benefit-inducing orders to all three at once. But since I’m working on completely starting from scratch on the Anvil and all that, if you think Master Engineers joining machines causes more problems than it solves…

- Longbeards are worse than Hammerers and cost more. With what I’ve provided, they’re 1pt cheaper (so they cost the same as Hammerers).
Without the penalty to being shot at via Shield Wall, do you still see issues with Longbeard Quarrelers/Thunderers?
Really, I’m just trying to offer what makes sense: Dwarf Bigg ‘Uns- a unit upgrade available to more than one unit.

- Ironbreakers are…a tough one, for me. They’re such a cool unit, and they need a Huge boost to become viable again. They’re an elite anvil unit, which is tough to do in 8th. You raise a valid point, comparing them to Chaos Warriors (a point I brought up when I first posted this. A point you said was moot). If they were, say, not Immune to Psychology, and had a 3+/5+ save, what would you say then? Still better than Chaos Warriors, I’ll consent. But then, comparing them to Hammerers, White Lions/Swordmasters, things seem a little more balanced.

- As for the Flame Cannon: it fires as a fire-thrower, except that you can place it anywhere within its range, instead of at the tip of the barrel.
So it still rolls the Artillery die and moves the template; the template can just start further away, so the Flame Cannon can actually hit things that aren’t going to charge it next turn. That’s all I’m trying to do, and that’s all this rule does; give the thing a little range.

- Finally, in terms of point and power adjustments, things did indeed get cheaper and better. Dwarfs get shields for free. Quarrelers and Thunderers cost lest. All the stuff that next to no one uses got cheaper and better, in an attempt to make it more likely to see some use.

DukeRustfield, I assure you that I respect your view on game design and consider your opinion to be well-informed and reasonable. Your tone, however, I'm usually not too fond of. A simple "I think that is too good, and here is why" would suffice (though I might suggest some tentativeness, if you're not sure on is meant. That, or closer reading). If I get smart with you, then by all means, unleash your wit. Until then, however, I'd ask you to calm down or shut up, but I'd rather just swallow my pride and sift through your words to find the ones that actually further my cause. So instead, I'll just ask you to calm down, and deal with it when you don't, I guess. Your imput, however poor the edicate, is still of use to me.

@RiTides: I'm not really sold on the Zepplin idea yet, but I do think that a sizeable list of options for a Dwarf blimp/'copter is in order.

You can't tell tone on a web page. I wouldn't bother responding if I wasn't interested in stuff and wouldn't bother writing a page if it was just like MAKE GIANTS HAVE ALL 10 STATS.

I thought about this later but Chaos Warriors comparison is really important for one reason. WoC marches into combat with their elite troops and goes, LOL, I have a billion in all my attributes. In the shooting phase, however, they stand there and scratch their butts. WoC has crazy melee in exchange for having one ranged weapon whatsoever. And it's horrendously expensive. Dwarfs have amazing ranged options. Now that you can charge based on dice and your movement value is much less inhibiting, if Dwarf melee units go to par with pure melee races and still keep their mega cannons, then they are simply too good.

Empire has about the same ranged capabilities as Dwarfs, maybe less. But their melee is all fodder. Cept for some knights.

As I always say, take a step back and ask what Dwarfs are missing. What should be their key abilities. It can't be "everything." Because there's nothing stopping you from getting the best cannons in the game and nearly the best melee in the game.

Take a look at CD. They have the same Dwarf basic troops essentially. A fodder troop. Some MI. And some crazy expensive monsters. Magic. And to balance their extremely good war machines, they made them extremely expensive. Most expensive in the game. So they can't take all that stuff. If you buy a choochoo and mortar with buffs that's like 500pts.

Make Dwarf machines be better on upgrades, but make them hellishly expensive. They don't just get to be better because they're Dwarfs. Chosen are expensive. People talk about how great Slann are at magic, but that's assuming a 500pt unit sitting in a TG of another 100+pts. Yeah, he better be good.

Ironbreakers can be anything. If you want them elite, make them cost 25 and be elite. But if you field them, it should change the shape of your army and you're going to have a lot less ability to be shooty.

Shield wall is WAY too good. Entrenching gunlines as well. Longbeard +BS ranged troops. If you want to do that, it's going to cost a lot. BS4 on T4 shooty armored troops is just too good for the cost you have. It's better than Elves shooting and you can give them GW.

Take baby steps. I think reworking the magic/runes first. CD have it and it's not a big deal. But if you're adding more stuff, think about what Dwarfs can do. Like at the back of each army book they give you some strategy tips. Usually it's all-in on one or another. Like, use lots of this or lots of that. With the prices and abilities above, I think they could do everything too well and too cheaply.

Personally, I'd say make their war machines a lot better, a lot more expensive. Then make their ELITE troops slayers, hammerers, ironbreakers, a lot better and a lot more expensive. That's your balance in a nutshell.

I have some models of dwarven knights on pigs. I'm just throwing that out there as an option.

I'll actually be more constructive in a few hours once I've done more on this assignment, so this post (after an edit or 8) won't be all that bad...

Bugman’s XXXXXX- 50pts

Is the effect of immune to fear, terror and panic constant? Or only on the turn you drink it

Right, I've taken time to read this and all the responses properly because I love the dawi dearly. First point is I'm holding my tongue on magic weapons and spells, there's no negotiating these really, you either like them or don't, but fair play for considering it and trying to make it work.

Stuff I Like:
Zeppelins - they are on their way in by all accounts and I like your ideas for them,
More cool engineer equipment,
Slayers in general, mainly that they get protection but NOT in combat (very important) and that they have to move towards monstrous stuff. I have thought a lot about slayers and the problem is trying not to OP them, forcing them to have a sort of 'frenzy' towards monstrous troop types and therefore always have to fight them before anything else in an opposing army is a very interesting balancing idea, and I would pay 18pts for slayers with 4+ ward against ranged,
Flame cannon back to the old rules, easiest choice in the world, @ Rustfield - Chaos dwarf magma cannons work like old flame cannons, thank you forgeworld,
Miners popping up somewhere on the table, I did baulk a bit at them being able to charge on the turn they arrive but then people do that with anvils all the time anyway so that's open to discussion, i like the mishap table too.

Things I am undecided on:
Longbeard missile troops, I like the idea but the reality of BS4 with +1 for dwarf handgun goes a little too far I think, good idea but still needs work,
Shield wall, probably the most debated rule that doesn't exist in the whole of warhammer! 5+ parry is still top of the suggestions for me (until you lose a round then regain when you win, like minotaurs' blood frenzy), -1 to shoot them is very hard to justify
Dwarf magic! I was uber-sceptical at first but then i read it and really it depends on the spells, I like them all except flesh to stone!
Organ gun, seems like just a straight up trade with the current rules, but i like the current rules so I don't think its necessary,
Shields as standard, I like the idea my hammerers would come with shields and I wouldn't have to make that decision, however that raises points cost issues so I'm not sure

Things I don't like:
Anything having more than one base attack (more on this in a sec),
Skirmishing dwarves!,
Anything that primarily uses a great weapon getting shield wall! is this a typo? (also remember in 8th ed things with special weapons CANNOT elect to use hand weapon and shield in combat, they have to use their gws, halberds or whatever, sad but true),
Throwing dangerous terrain everywhere and dwarves being immune to it, the problem with being immune to dangerous terrain is you can only justify it for certain types of terrain fluff wise (eg. loose rocks yes, dangerous woods no)

My suggestions:
Combine enhanced master engineers with longbeard missile troops, make it an option that an engineer may be a 'thunder-lord' (yes I ripped of AOW there), oath-stone type restrictions on where he can go, and his unit may be longbeards and get re-roll 1s to hit when shooting instead of BS 4,

Making things fightier. This is where giving dwarves magic (suppress grumbling) could help with some combat buffs like +1 attack or re-roll misses. An alternative I thought of is one-use-only magic items (banners, maybe a talisman for a character in a unit or something like that) that would give those bonuses.

Anywho, keep up the good work, generating new ideas and having a discussion on them is the important thing, and I assume thats why you posted them up here at the mercy of other users!

PS, dont knock Rustfield for criticising, it takes all view points to make a productive debate

 motyak wrote:
I have some models of dwarven knights on pigs. I'm just throwing that out there as an option.

I just saw some warmachine rhulic converted to be riding boars at a friend's house yesterday . I have to admit I have a soft spot for dwarf cavalry, be they on bears, boars, goats... almost anything . I will say that straight-up pigs is a bit of a stretch for me, but boars I can run with. I'd go so far as to say I would instantly buy in to a dwarf army if GW were to make rules for cavalry!

Uzi Toting Monkeys wrote:PS, dont knock Rustfield for criticising, it takes all view points to make a productive debate

Agreed! And just to clarify, I didn't want to knock him for criticizing, just encouraging a bit of tact

@RiTides & motyak: Dwarf Cavalry is something I've considered, and...I dunno. It's a cool idea (I'd have to throw my two bits in with goats, all things considered), but I'm really wary of it, from a tactical standpoint.

@Duke: tone can be and is (always is) part of any form of communication. It's just easier to misunderstand the intended tone.
Some people--especially in faceless web forums--just like to start stuff. There's reason to assume positivity or good intention, just 'cause, but unless I've actually got some kind of proof, that reason's pretty small.

I honestly didn't put much thought into ranged Longbeards. You're paying more points for a unit that's better at stuff; that's the foundation of the whole thing.
First, I'd address the point drop on basic Quarrlerers and Thunderers: A basic Dwarf costs 8pts. In the current book, downgrading his armour to light and giving him a crossbow/Dwarf Handgun increases his points by 4/6. Which just never added up to me. And seemed to explain why I rarely saw either, come 8th.
2pts more/model to seemed reasonable, but, especially with Thunderers, you've got me thinking about huge number of essentially BS5 troops.
What if the benefits to upgrade either unit to Longbeards was just what it used to be, making them better in close combat only?

And as for the matters of cost versus ability, per unit and army-wide, I think you raise a point that few people think about.
Still, I don't think I'm too far off base in a lot of cases. 15pt Ironbreakers will take a gigantic chunk out of your army if you field a decent sized unit.
Though you've also got me thinking about artillery, specifically. I don't think fielding non-upgraded machines should even be an option, really. And I'm not sure what kind of uprades will be an option, but things like the Rune of Forging (in fact, just the Rune of Forging) will either not exist, or will cost a lot more.

@Uzi Toting Monkeys: Yeah, I felt like Slayers needed something to make them really pop. They're basically the mascots of Warhammer.
As for Miners, I'm using the rules for the Skaven Warp-Grinder, though more reliable.

The more than 1 attack thing is something I'm really intent on including, to offer some kind of ability for Dwarfs to field an infantry unit that can hack through a horde of the goblins or Skaven they're supposed to be fighting.

Shield Wall granting a -1 to shoot was just my attempt to capture what, exactly, a Shield Wall does. But 5+ Parry works so much better. In every way.
As for great weapons/Shield Wall, they have the ability, but it wouldn't function, since they have their special weapon, as you say.

Slayers don't need to be rank and file, and have no reason to be. I really can't see anything other than Skirmish for them.

And the Difficult Terrain thing is the hardest part. I think something like this would be cool.
But maybe just offering s'more Rangers/Slayers/Miners and their ilk will spice things up enough?

Rule: Sons of the War of the Beard. These dwarves are descended of participants of the War of the Beard. In addition to (Or instead of) their traditional ancestral grudges, these dwarves have a score to settle with Elves. As a result, they Hate elves of any kind. (This would be an upgrade to any dwarf unit. Perhaps 1ppm or a flat cost upgrade to the unit? Just an idea, not really needed. Not NEARLY so much as the next one...)

Option for Dwarf Lord: The book of Grudges. Any Dwarf Lord bearing a Book of Grudges (and any unit he joins) Hates any enemy they fight, as the lord flips through the ancient and bloodstained ledger to find a debt owed to the hold by ANY race at SOME point in the Hold's history (as the dwarves' legendary stiffneckedness makes it nearly impossible to have not rankled them.) So great is the Lord's fiery rhetoric against the enemies of the stout race, that the ancient grudges begun in the forgotton beginnings of the world are lit like unrelenting fire in the hearts of all who fight. Affected models receive Eternal Hatred against Greenskins and Skaven (and Elves, if applicable)

Also I'm still thinking blanket Stubborn would be a good rule for them to have. OR a rule where they can still be steadfast if their ranks equal the enemy or get a +1 to their ranks for the purposes of determining steadfast. If you make this only apply to the Dwarves (meaning that if the dwarves win the fight, they don't force the enemy to lose steadfast) it could be fine on its own. If you allow the full circumstances of this rule (that it COULD hose the enemy's steadfast) would be a great rule for Slayers or Iron Breakers, so demoralizing is their unshakeable resolve or sudden onslaught.

I LIKE Shieldwall, but think it would be a rule best applied to specialized units, such as Ironbreakers.
Additionally, a rule to reflect the Iron Breakers' fluff as the dwarves used to hold the line to physically block tunnels with their bodies would be great. For instance:
+1 rank may attack, but the unit may never benefit from Horde formation.
The unit never takes damage from Impact attacks or Stomps (actually I like this WAY better for Slayers. Maybe subtract 1 from the numbers of stomps/impact attacks generated per base?)
The enemy may never count ranks for combat resolution originating from the front. Any flanking or rear charging units may use their ranks as normal for combat res, due to the Iron Breaker's being unused to getting flanked. (This rule might be interesting, and cause Dwarf players to really plan out the synergy of their battle lines more, which in MY opinion is a good thing! Unfortunately, Oathstones can break this weakness too easily)

I would really like to see Slayers get Heroic Killing Blow (and why the hell SHOULDN'T they have it?!?) and possibly always wounding on a 3+ up to S6, like Manbane from the DE book, but I suppose that wounding on a 4+ BEFORE weapons would be allright.

Why did you give so many models a 4+ ward AND a MR3? Isn't magic res largely useless? Or is it just to confer that resistance to any units they join, too?

I know you want to revamp the Anvil of Doom, but I don't think i care much for your changes. At first I didn't like the fact that it got spells ("Spells are randomized! Random is not dwarfy! Its consistant or it's CRAP!") then I realized that it has Lore Master. I suppose that is all right, but still magic is fickle, and if you want to let RuneLords/smiths have spells, sure, fine, but the Altar probably shouldn't be an item so subject to RNG. Dwarves have been using rifles for what, thousands of years now? And there are STILL dwarves who see it as new fangled, unreliable tech? Do you honestly think then that they'd find a random AoD to be okay? Oh sure, both 6e Dwarf books had some aspect of randomness (the first actually was magic, the other was resolved on a d6 or d2) but that was a horrible idea too. Better, to be honest, for them to function like the Chaos Warshrine or DE Cauldron of blood (why Chaos has a more reliable item than Dwarves to is anyone's guess...) where it always goes off. The CoB always happens and has really good effects. Why not let the Anvil do the same? If we want the normal/Ancient Power versions, then yes, keep the roll for ancient power. Otherwise, any Runelord old enough to have inherited an AoD is good enough to not mess up activating the normal runes. Yknow, after like a 600 year apprenticeship... I would suggest (though it goes against the grain of the current thought on 8e) letting the AoD be modular. It would be a base cost, then you can add 3 runes to it. A Runelord might get to activate the first one for free at no risk, the second one on a roll, and the third at a penalty to the roll (with AP attempts being harder still, of course, given the complexity of the attempt.)

These abilities might be: Target unit/units can not march. Target unit/units take a terror check. (the cheapest one, of course ) Target unit/units may reform or charge. Target unit/units may/must reroll artillary/scatter dice (using this on enemy artillary? Oh yeah baby! Could also be used against Fanatics when they randomize direction maybe...) Target unit/units take one more wound from unstable after combat res. Enemy mages must reroll successful channelling attempts. The enemy player rolls 3 dice for the winds of magic, dropping the highest. There could be oher possibilites as well, but the goal would be to make every rune useful, with some comboing up with different units nicely, or against certain enemies well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another idea for Iron Breakers or other dwarves regarding leadership:

"We're supposed to be outnumbered, son. We're Dwarves!" - This unit does not count any enemy ranks beyond the 4th when determining if it is steadfast. 100 rats is exactly as intimidating as 10,000 to a Logbeard. Which is to say they aren't. They used to be though, why, back in my day... mumble grumble hmphmagubble...

Wow, I never realized such a seemingly 'straight-forward' army as dwarfs could generate so much debate! You've hit a rich vein here Warp (yes that was a mining joke ).

I didn't realize skirmish was intended for slayers. That really is an interesting idea. The problem is always trying not to OP them, giving them all heroic killing blow means a unit will start wiping out units of ogres in one round, so you make them super expensive, so no-one ever takes them against anything other than ogres, and so on, its a vicious circle. Anywho, skirmishing them completely changes their role, it gives them a specialism that is useful against EVERY opponent, try not to make them too expensive though (because I would want to use them a lot!) But also i can imagine small bands of slayers wandering forward out of the battle line spoiling for a rumble against the biggest enemies (or group of enemies) they could find, basically tough, unbreakable re-directors and road blocks, use their death wish to alter the FLOW of the battle. Love it. Stomp avoidance also a cool and fluffy idea for them. Also maybe amend the rule saying they have to move towards 'monstrous' units to the unit with the highest toughness (more universal)?

Good points on the costing of dwarf missile troops. However the cost of something in relation to other troops and their role in their own army is the most important thing, not just their stats. I have no problems with thunderers for example as they currently exist (I'd like them for 1pt less, but then everyone would, for everything) I find they are hugely consistent and in a decent size (I usually go for 14-16) will put a decent dent in anything you aim them at. I believe this reliability over war machines makes them worth a chunk of points. Quarrellers aren't my area of expertise so I will bow to others' wisdom on them. Really though I'm not sure 'Longbeard' missile troops are needed, and if a more elite ranged unit is needed would a new unit or rule be a better way of doing it than a stat upgrade? Or allow crossbow longbeards with a BS/to-hit-roll boost but no thunderer longbeards, for obvious fluff and balance reasons? would people pay 13/14pts for a crossbowman with +1 to hit? then it would just be a trade off between range and armour piercing, but there would be no cheap thunderer option whereas you could still have regular 'cheap' quarrellers.

On the subject of more than one attack I will say dwarfs may not win quickly but they always win in the end! I'm not going to approve of it being in the stat line but I will keep on about having it as an ability, so here's another stab at it: To give dwarfs the chance to hack their way out of a corner let them get an extra attack INSTEAD of their rank bonus and any shield wall bonuses. Provided you keep killing enough of the enemy to win combat, ie at least the three extra to make up for rank bonus, then eventually you will bludgeon your way clear of the enemy. But only allow this ability when outnumbered (or surrounded) by the enemy, so you can't just blitz small elite units. Perhaps activate it when dwarf ranks drop below a certain point?

@Nagashek. Also loving the steadfast amendment, have to have MORE ranks than dwarf (shield wall??) units to remove their steadfast, not just match it. I agree this rule affecting the enemy's steadfastness(real word?) may be unfair but as only one unit will be losing and taking a break test I don't seen a problem with both units effectively being steadfast at the same time? This would be a great dwarf universal rule, call it 'Undaunted'! Stubborn across the board is too much, with a BSB and dwarf leadership it is basically just unbreakable.

Also the fact that that book of grudges is not an existing item (for all lords, not just Thorgrim) is a travesty.


A lot of interesting rule ideas have come up so far in this thread and i think they may be best used as rules for different units, do people think that would be a good way of providing dwarf units with the diversity that they currently lack? I like the idea that dwarfs' advantages would come from their great age and experience so allowing them access to different abilities to chose from within a game appeals to me.

Next to the DoC update, CD are the newest army. So GW believes the values there to be balanced for 8th.

CD core are essentially ironbreakers with -1WS @ -1pt. They have the option of getting a banner. And any of them can upgrade to GW, Fireglaives or guns @ 3/5/6 pts which is way overcosted. They also get a 5+ward vs. fire.

CD Special areIronswrod which are ironbreakers @ 17pts each and +1S and a magic weapon. They also get a 5+ward vs. fire.

CD don't get the cheap 8pt Dwarfs. If they want to be ranged their cheapest unit is 17pts each with BS3. They have fodder hobgoblins though.

The reason you don't see gunlines as much is because the range units can charge now is so much greater. A war machine is still a war machine, but your bowmen are going to get in CC really quick and it's hard for them to make back their points. But CD took the route of if you make them ranged, they are still exactly as tough as your ironbreakers (it's same unit after all with a gun). But it's expensive.

Likewise, CD are my inspiration for suggesting the 25pt ironbreakers. 15 is nothing for what yours do. Bull Centaurs and Fireborn are 40 and 55pts MB and MI. The only units with more than 1A in Core/Special. And they don't exactly compete with Ogres. Because Ogres don't have mortars and magma cannons.

You pay for everything in the game. War machines basically cost nearish each other in every army book. When they change, it's because their abilities are better/worse. Orcs are cheap cuz they are flimsy. Everyone talks about how great Ironblasters are, but it's a cannon that costs nearly twice as much as a regular cannon. You can't just buy the cannon part, you have to take the rhinox and ogre and such. Empire made their stuff better by having a guy stand near it, which essentially increases the cost of it (and he can be killed). You could do that or some combination. But a better cannon has to cost more.

@Nagashek: you mean the 4+ Ward and MR3 granted by Runic Tattoos? That's for Slayers, to make them more resistant to the things that aren't a glorious death with a horrible monster.

Yes on the Book. Yes.

Shieldwall is most important to me in the Core, where current Dwarf Warriors will never--EVER--be taken as a sizeable unit with anything other than great weapons. It's in the history books. It's in the fictional books. Shields are supposed to be good.

Killing Blow might be a Slayer thing. Heroic Killing Blow, I am sure, will never in a dozen editions be seen on non-character models under 100pts. The Slayer rule already captures this exact sort of ability, though, so I don't think it's necessary to have both. That, and Killing Blow means nothing to a Slayer band's ideal targets, while Heroic Killing Blow is far too potent for a whole unit. The Slayer rule lets you have something on that scale that you get some kind of result from.

In regards to ranks, steadfast, and the like, the ideas are great, and keep 'em coming! We just need to boil them down and down and down to their simplest form. I am pretty confident that this will probably result in "Ld9/10 with a BSB" being enough, but ideas are good.

@Monkeys: I agree with you on the attack thing. The only problem I've seen is that, while Dwarfs will often win the eternal grind, the game is usually only 6 turns.
Slayers should basically have Frenzy. I also tried to make them move towards "any unit containing a model with a Strength or Toughness of 5 or more, 1 or more Wounds, or the Large Target special rule"...but it got really messy, really fast. Troop type is cast in stone.

On Thunderers...I feel like you are in a vast minority; the point difference between Quarrelers and Thunderers is really significant, and the later only increases its ranged efficiency by a small ammount, except they don't get to shoot as often, either.

@Duke: do people use the Chaos Dwarf core and/or their upgrades? Those prices and stats seem brutal.

I do like the idea that the ranged unit is a tough one. A Dwarf in light armour does not seem to be enough anymore.

25pts/model is pretty significant for rank-and-file guys. We're in the realm of a Goblin Big Boss at this point. It's something I considered, but they would have to be...good.
15pts feels like a good number for an elite troop, or at least as a place to start. Part of the problem is when you consider Hammerers and try to "upgrade" them: 12pts -2 [great weapon] +2 [gromil armour and shield], +3 [extra attack], -0 [no Body Guard]. But part of that is that Hammerers are just so efficient. Plus, as I said, we tried rolling them out a number of times. They can grind through Skaven and Goblins pretty well, but it's always a close call as to who comes out ahead. Against other elite infantry, they tended to fall behind (Chaos Warriors, Swordmasters/White Lions). The results were confusing, but we chalked it up to "not enough testing".

I'm also a little confused on your last point. Not in the meaning, but in its presence. I'm fully aware that better things cost more than worse things.

Warpsolution wrote:
@Duke: do people use the Chaos Dwarf core and/or their upgrades? Those prices and stats seem brutal.

I do like the idea that the ranged unit is a tough one. A Dwarf in light armour does not seem to be enough anymore.

25pts/model is pretty significant for rank-and-file guys.

Core Ironbreakers? Of course they use them. I think people use fireglaives cuz they look cool but I don't think they are worth it. Blunderbusses really aren't worth it IMHO. Maybe if you got a perfect line-up against some T3 guys in light armor you could mow them down.

Most ranged troops in light armor don't cut it because of charging. Even Dwarfs can charge into combat reliably.

Dwarf Ironbreakers/Hammers aren't rank-and-file. They are Special. 25pts for a special is probably half the average for Special units in army books.

I had the last line because you made a lot of stuff better without raising costs. CD uses Dwarfs as a template for its costs, for example. If you make Dwarf stuff better/cheaper then you'll never lose to CD and made the newest print book instantly out-of-date.

With every new book, comes the OP stuff, shortly followed by the pissing and moaning.

I've been playing Dwarfs for 10 years now, now I'm not saying their broken, because by all means they are not, but they are still an old book, and hell, I WANT A NEW BOOK WITH SOME OP stuff in it for once. Look at the Skaven and Ogres, they got toys coming out the butt, and I feel like its the Dwarfs turn to start packing toys up their butt.

Its a bit unfortunate, but the GW way is that every new book will be insanely OP and cheap in points, but probably expensive as gak in dollars.

But I play Chaos Dwarfs as well, so maybe I shouldn't moan to much about having a second OP army.

There is one guy down my club who plays chaos dwarves, his 2400 consists of , BSB, wizard, 2 tractors, 1 big k'daai daemon, magma cannon, 2 rocket launchers, 2 units of hobgoblin archers and ONE unit of 28 basic chaos dwarf warriors, who sit at the back as a character bunker and war machine guard, and do precisely 0% of the fighting. They are just a very quick way to fill up your core requirement. High costed core troops is a slightly different issue to high costed special troops, I don't actually mind GW longbeards being 1pt more than hammerers precisely because they are a core choice, and it is therefore INSTEAD of warriors, not instead of hammerers or ironbreakers etc etc etc. I consider it an extra point for the privilege of being able to have a decent unit each of GW longbeards, hammerers and ironbreakers in a 2400pt army. Again, points cost for what it does in your army, NOT ITS STATS! So let's not get bogged down in that argument.

@Poppabear. Hear-Hear! I dropped out of the game for a while during 7th (at that age where alcohol was a more important purchase), I came back and found dwarves had had two new books in which they had had precisely 0 new units, 0 new (meaningful) rules and the points costs for most troops and items hadn't even changed. And they found time to create 2 entirely new armies (ogres and tomb kings) over that period. Yes don't fix what ain't broke but if ANY army deserves some love its Dwarfs!

Right, deep breaths, rants over . Anyway, back to doing GW's job for them...

@Warp: You're right, it's time to start condensing some of these ideas.

Slayers: They need a maximum unit size, both skirmishers and unbreakable units ALWAYS have a max unit size, that seems to be a hard and fast GW rule and I think a sensible one. I would suggest 15, I don't recall seeing any skirmishing unit in the game being allowed more than 20 (keep the space they take up in mind), and as slayers are A) quite powerful and B) unbreakable as well as skirmishing I think 15 is reasonable.

Also would you consider easing their movement restrictions? Definitely make them pass a LD test to not declare a charge on Monstrous-types but allow them to act normally if they pass or there are no such units that they are eligible to charge. Having them as a rare choice (mainly because that means 0-2 under 3k) is a very good move.

Thirdly I think 4++ AND MR3 is a bit much, 4++ against SHOOTING is fine (yes more than most things get but it is needed to make this unit viable), but 0+ save against magic missiles!? MR1 I think would be sufficient.

On a semi-related note I am coming round to the idea that dwarf war machines should be more expensive for a SLIGHT increase in effectiveness, mainly to limit their numbers. the reason this links to slayers is that if dwarfs have the amount of war machines they have now PLUS these slayers it would make monstrous units pointless against dwarfs and defeat the object of creating this unit. Who would take crypt horrors, demi-gryph knights, ushabti, treekin etc if not only were they having to deal with cannons but ALSO these slayers (which are now effective as by skirmishing they are much harder to avoid). Not a major problem, just one that requires some balancing. I don't think its fun or fair to have (the more exotic) half of your army be obsolete or just a liability against certain armies,and dwarfs already negate enough play-styles as is.

Am I being paranoid on this last point? Taking it to the Nth degree and trying to pre-empt really cheesy list builds? I mean if you want to spend 360pts on 2 units of ten skirmish slayers and then 400pts on tooled up warmachines then thats your perogative I guess, and good luck fitting in hammerers and ironbreakers?

Also btw Warp you mention engineering runes in the army list but don't actually include any. I think the one amendment that should definately happen is some version of rune of forging as standard, virtually no-one takes cannons without it, and without it they are actually inferior to empire cannons(!) so just cut out the middle man and make special dwarf cannons which cost 130pts and have forging built in?

@Duke: my main point is that I've never once seen Ironbreakers played since 8th. Not because they don't synergize with the army or anything. Just because they are inferior to the other options. They cost more than Hammerers, don't hit as hard, and don't stick around as well.

And by "rank and file" what I mean is "man-sized infantry". Units with big foot prints and an efficient W/A ration to their cost. I can't think of any such unit costing 25pts/model at the moment. I mean, a unit of 20 is coming in at 500pts. So given the role Ironbreakers are supposed to be filling, they'd have to be incredibly tough to justify it. Like I said, I've considered the idea. Just seemed like a greater deviation from the core concept, so I started with a goal nearer at hand.

As for point drops and improvements: I think that the biggest deal is probably Ironbreakers.
Beyond that, I improved Dwarf Warriors, but in a way that only benefits them if they don't use great weapons, assuming that the Shield Wall concept evolves into what it needs to (5+ Parry still looking good).
Aside from the bonus to BS on Longbeards (something I added in, thinking that either that or WS would be significant, and that the benefits of the prior would be relatively minor, all of which I plan on changing), that drop in price seems most reasonable to me.

@Monkeys: the problem I have with Longbeards costing 11-13pts is that they cost more than Hammerers and are significantly worse. Stubborn is a huge deal. Old Grumblers (even boosted as it is) is not.
Really, I'm thinking that Hammerers might need to cost more. But as far as Longbeard costs go, I'm okay with them costing the same and being worse, or costing more and being the same, but not worse in every way.

And I thought I'd put a limit on Slayers. I was thinking 10, but 15 is in that same range.
The only problem with a Ld test to resist their compulsory move towards big baddies is that they're Ld10. I think this limitation should be extremely likely, and since the existing rules would make it almost non-existant, I went with the next simplest idea, which was to make it a sure thing.

MR3 is a bit over the top. I guess I figured that it was probably such a minor thing nowadays, but there's really no reason that Slayers need to have a 1+ versus Fireballs.

War machines are something I'd like to see some suggestions on. I agree with you on them needing to be better, both because it's Dwarf stuff and should therefore be good, and to take away the option of cheap artillery. Because it's Dwarf stuff.

As for the concern versus Monstrous units, I agree. Maybe something like: no Rune of Burning/Forging. Period. Or maybe making a Forging-cannon the standard, and it cost 140pts.

Just some quick thoughts and changes:

- Longbeard option confers +1WS and +1 S, the end.
- Hammerers cost...13pts?
- Cannons at 140pts, auto-Forging.
- Bolt Throwers...Always S7...eh. +1 to hit? Exploding bolts? Something that makes a Dwarf player maybe, someday, somehow, want to take one, and at a cost worthy of a dwarf engine?
- Auto S4(10) Grudge Throwers? Or maybe Accurate?

Hmm.... Just making fully tooled up war machines standard, including engineers may work. All would then have 4 wounds and BS 4. Perhaps give bolt throwers an engineer upgrade for free, let them be dwarves one 'cheap' war-machine option. I will invest some thought in this

Special ammo types does sound fun! maybe some options IF you take a master engineer.

Fair point on Longbeard costing, I don't espect many would agree with my willingness to pay more to have them core. Hammerers costing more is an option, I think its very hard to justify reducing any costs except hw&sh warriors (for army balance) and thunderers (because I like them), so what with stubborn being one of the best special rules in the game I think it may be the way to go. Leave longbeards as is and give hammerers a boost and justify going up to 13 or 14 pts. BTW is there a reason you didn't make 'Old Grumblers' just Immune to Psychology? (not for units within 6, just the Lbs)

If any unit is going to be the real bad-asses it makes sense to be the hammerers, not just for the fluff reasons but because I think every dwarf player has them and (usually) auto-includes them anyway. Perhaps they should be the candidate for the 2 base attacks?

@Poppa, don't aspire to mediocrity. It's a terrible concept that just because GW makes stuff unbalanced it's okay for us to do the same. I admit, when new stuff comes out, it's extremely easy to say it's unbalanced/broken, and I do the same thing. Sometimes I'm right, but probably most times I'm wrong. Simply because eyeballing a list isn't the same as play testing it for months.

@Uzi, just because someone has a list where they don't use their Core CD doesn't mean they're bad. They are extremely good. They are Saurus Warriors +1pt, +1WS, +1armor, -1M, -1A and a lot more options. The -1A means they are a whole lot less killy, but they are a much stronger anvil. To all-comers, they are an anvil. If you swapped out GWs on them, they would beat Saurus on cost (but then they'd lose to other Core being too expensive...). So being able to trade shots with some of the best Core in the game certainly makes them solid. Just because one guy keeps them as a bunker doesn't mean they suck.

@Warp, rank-and-file means your most common troops. Base size is irrelevant. If you could have a unit with all his stats 10 and the base size of a goblin, it would be horrendously OP because he'd be ultra mobile and could sneak around and flank and avoid templates easily. A large base size isn't a bonus most times.

Again, you're making Shield Wall crazy powerful. You just turned them into Daemons that are 50% cheaper! That's outrageous. Most attacks are going to be in CC and from the front. They become Plaguebearers at half cost +1WS -1STR, not unstable, better LD, 5+ armor save and able to get GW and other nice things. They would literally beat elite infantry (baddly) on cost. That's way too much. You can't give your vanilla troops anything remotely that good. Look at the existing bonuses. For Dwarfs and CD. Only HE have a rule that's remotely that awesome for everyone. The racial rules aren't meant to be game-stoppers. You have 8pt troops, you can't give them bonuses that large unless you dropped their stats. Your basic troops are equivalent in cost to basic Empire Core. Just simple humans. They have to balance to them and a 5+ ward ain't ever going to make that possible unless you made all their stats 2, which doesn't make any sense.

As for war machines, you get a little mudied having the options of engineers. But if you did something as simple as make cannons D6 wounds +1 they would become a lot more powerful (too much?). If you made the misfire chart be changed to 1-4 = malfunction, you'd make them a lot better. Every rule is up for grabs. The Empire has an artillery master, who is better at accuracy. The Engineer is better at what? You want to differentiate them I think.

All I truly want in our new book is that everything is dropped a couple points and we get a big monster/warmachines/big ass killy thing to play with.

Is that to much to ask.

And maybe a nuke we can drop from a GT, but that might be to tough of a sale.

@Rustfield, I never said CD warriors weren't good, I'm still banging on about whether something is worth it in their army, the point is my friend looked at the CD list and said would I rather spend X points on warriors or on other stuff, he obviously chose other stuff and while I'm not a mind reader I'm sure their points cost (and the fact that at 2.4k one unit of CD plus a few Hgoblins made up his core just fine) came into it somewhere.

Example: I would pay more than the relevant army book cost to have a unit of dark riders in my dwarf army, and take them INSTEAD of say crossbowmen, for what they would bring to a dwarf army. CD's have big war-machines and other big fighty units, CD warriors may be worth those points in some ways but not when you have those other options

I also think you are over-stating how good the shield wall is, it's a PARRY, not a ward save, it won't help you against half of what a charging unit of ogres will do to you, or shooting, magic, breath weapons and I think we agreed the parry would go back down to a 6+ if you are engaged in flanks or rear at all and I would personally add the caveat that as soon as you lose a round of combat (and remember that warriors are still hitting back with only one str3 attack each) they lose shield wall and can get it back when they win a round. This is a long way from a 5+ ward save. And attacking a big ranked up unit of anything half decent from the font should never be plan A! I realize this is more of an advantage for IB's and LB's (will hit back slightly harder) so we'll add an extra point on to those two.

If you still think that's too much how about having the shield NOT contribute to the armour save when shield walling? It's a little complicated as its over-riding a standard WHFB rule but its an idea...
"Shield wall": Dwarf units armed with hw&sh add +1 to any parry save they receive instead of their armour save in close combat.
This way they are not getting a bonus from their shield 'twice', only once but in a possibly more beneficial way. Leave all the standard rules for when a parry save does and does not apply in tact.
Discuss

Keep them at 9 points then, in comparison: empire halberdiers are 6pts (str4, almost always buffed in some way, cheap enough to horde), Dark elf spearmen 7pts w/ shields (and have hatred, m5, I4/5?) goblins are dirt cheap but because of that they are always going to be big enough to be steadfast and they STILL have a higher M & I than dwarfs and spears so effectively more attacks. I make 2 points here: 1) every unit here brings something to the table that dwarf warriors don't and for less cost, and 2) this shows that stats and rules are only a rough guideline for points cost as the role they fulfill in the army and how they combine with other units is more important. The fact that every other army in warhammer can buff their units or hex opposing units should be a VERY serious consideration in points cost. You may think they are cheap in points but you have NO WAY of making them better, unlike a 6pt halberdier.

Anyway, I would suggest that simultaneously arguing/discussing rules AND point values at the same time is counter productive. This is a fandex after all so let's decide and get set on rules we like and then fill in the point cost later. That way is much more fun!

@Warp: could you compile the ideas you've liked from this thread so far and post up a dwarf fandex v1.1 somewhere, possibly somewhere where you can continually tweak it without having to re-post it here, and put latest amendments in magenta, lol. I would love to see how this is shaping up now.

@Uzi: I like where you're going with war machines.

I will try doing some updates. It's a bit tough; my computer skills aren't all that great, and my time is such that just responding to this thread is something I'm hard-pressed to do. But I'll get there...someday. Otherwise, you're welcome to formalize some of these ideas for me to copy-paste-edit-update into the first draft above.

I thought about Hammerers being "the Elite unit", but it seems like Ironbreakers are supposed to be the ones that fair the best without any leadership to guide them, save their own.
But mainly, 2 attacks at S6 on a poorly protected model is way better than 2 at S4 on a really tough one. I think, anyway.

@Duke: rank and file, meaning units that form ranks and files. Granted, cavalry and monstrous units do the same thing. But not in big units, typically.
I'm not trying to argue what "rank and file" means, as neither of our definitions are technically exactly right since they both involve generalization. I was just trying to explain why I used the term.
A more accurate phrase would have been "standard infantry". I've never seen a non-character model of this troop type cost that much without some truly weird abilities to go along with it. Infantry's characteristics, as I said above, seem to be a relatively good wound and attack/point ration, at the cost of maneuverability and space. I don't think we'd ever see units of 30 25pt Ironbreakers, which would be a reasonable unit size for a block of infantry.
What would you suggest to make them worth 15pts? 25?

And more on Shield Wall: would you take a block of 8-9pt Warriors at S3 with a 4+/5+ versus 10pts for S5 with a 5+? I think I'd take both, but maybe still heavier on the great weapons. I've done the math. They're still losing the cost-battle against many other troops. Just not as bad as they currently do.
As I've said in I-don't-know-how-many-threads, I think shields should be the go-to choice, tied with spears. So eally, I think I'd first like to find a way to make shields better for all armies. Still waiting on any suggestions with that.
But beyond my issue with shields in general, Dwarfs are said to use shields the vast majority of the time in war, being the best at such fighting.
Maybe their natural Toughness and high Leadership would give them the only edge they need in a long grind. Maybe all shields could grant that bonus (except then you'd get 5+ Slaves and Night Goblins and 4+ Marauders...yuck). But I'm grasping at straws here.

I'd like some more actual suggestions on how to do something better, rather than "that won't work". The few actual suggestions I've seen you give have always been well-thought out and useful.

@Poppabear: I don't think you're going to convince me to make everything cheaper, even by a little. Hammerers are sick as they currently stand. Forging Cannons are too good. And standard great weapon warriors are, if not perfect, so close that I'll leave their update to someone with more know-how.

Rank and File is a really common term. You don't have to agree with me, but it's what it means in the English language. It totally doesn't matter in terms of a game discussion, but I like to think I got my vocabulary down.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rank+and+file

5+ parry is a 5+ ward for probably 80% or more of the wounds that happen in the game. That's enough to make it not going to happen.

I can see your base cores getting shields for free. That's a +1 pt advantage and pretty significant in terms of %. But you can't create racial skills remotely as powerful as you're attempting. I think all the good comparison programs are gone (or I can't find them). But compare basic Orcs whose racial abilities are...wait for it, +1 Str on the first round of combat, and the ability to kill their own units. But take your core dwarfs and start matching them up to core orcs. 5+ parry and they would absolutely smear them. A free shield and they might even be ahead. But it's pretty close as it is.

@Rustfield: You're comparing apples and oranges when it comes to army-wide special rules, Orcs are a straight up combat army, when EVERY unit in your army is designed to hit hard in combat then +1 strength in the first round is something that is designed to work with that. Try swapping High Elves and Orcs rules and see if it makes them look 'balanced'. And powerful??? All skaven are leadership 9/10 as long as you still have 20 men in a unit, Ogre units do a bunch of impact hits BEFORE they start wailing on you with 18 attacks from 6 guys AND then stomp on you. And lets wait two weeks and see what WOC get!

Are these rules unfair? No, they are an integral part of how these armies play and is built into the points cost for individual models and army balance across the whole book.

Can we please stop arguing back and forth about whether one rule is 'balanced' or 'powerful' in isolation from the rest of the army and a unit's points cost. It is getting us nowhere.

@Warp: I think making shields more useful/popular across the game may be beyond the reach of mere mortals not named Phil Kelly! Doing it for Dwarfs however I think we can manage

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Shield Wall A:
Dwarf Warrior and Longbeard units armed with HW&SH gain a +1 bonus to any 'parry' saving throws provided that they are not 'disrupted' by enemy units in their flanks or rear. If a unit loses a round of combat it may not claim this bonus during subsequent rounds of the same combat. A unit may not claim this bonus on a turn in which it charges.

Here is my thinking: Firstly you don't get it on the turn you charge, like spears, it should be a defensive mechanic. Secondly it only lasts until you lose a round in which case the shield wall is broken. If you charge and win you get it in round 2, if you charge and lose you don't get it at all. Thirdly I think the 'disrupted' rule works well with it, chucking a lone character/skirmishers into the unit's flank won't break the shield wall itself but the +2 CR (charge + flank, plus again low damage output in response to say empire militia detachments/elf scouts/harpies/cavalry with multiple attacks which are likely flank attackers) may well win the combat for the opponent and break the shield wall that way.

I ditched the idea you can re-gain the shield wall for simplicity and also left out Ironbreakers as I think they could have a more interesting rule of their own.

What does Dakka think? did we get it right yet?

I think I may have an idea to get people to take them as well...

Make all Gw warriors Rangers. They get a free move at the beginning of the game (at their normal rate, not vanguard) and throwing axes for 12pts, crossbow option for an additional 1 or 2pts, and LB option. That way they are a different tactical option from hw&sh warriors and points cost vs effectiveness comparison isn't black and white. Viola! hammer and anvil!

Furthermore! If you go with your version of the Miners' 'underground advance' rule they fill the role rangers do under the current rules, making Miners much more popular as well which they deserve to be. And avoiding too much whining from the scouting-longbeard-horde fraternity.

@Duke: well spoken. To be fair though, I think the term "normal" is a bit easier in our world, where soldiers only come in one physical form.

@Uzi: now, I'll agree that a mechanic cam never be called balanced or unfair on its own, that the game involves too many variables and such for all that, but there is some, if not much, legitimacy to the idea of power in a vacuum.

In terms of your suggestion, I do like the idea. It might be easier to take out the win/lose condition, to make it simpler. So it'd be:

...: a unit using hand weapons and shields with this rule improves its Parry save by 1 if the unit did not change this phase and is not engaged to the flank or rear.

Making all of them Rangers is a big shift. Even with a 5+ Parry, and even at 11pts/model, I think most people would take them over shield-Dwarfs. Which would result in mostly Ranger-armies. Which is kind of silly.

I really don't think you guys appreciate what a 5+ parry means. It's not apples to oranges. You have to fight this stuff. Those are your peers. If the concept of this update is to make Dwarfs only fight Dwarfs, you can do that. But presumably you want them to fight other armies. So they have to be balanced to other armies.

Saying a super elite unit of Ogres has a zomg +1 impact hit, which is 1/4 their normal attacks, on the charge only is still a tiny buff compared to a +1 ward in CC. HE can have quadruple ASF, it won't matter. They still balance to dwarfs because they were faster anyway. They have suckier armor, cost more, lower T. That's how they balance. Orcs have +1 str on their first attack. That is garbage compared to a forever +1 ward.

10 shield dwarf warriors cost 9
10 shield savage orcs cost 9

15 attacks from SO. 7.5 hits. 3.75 wound (Choppa first round), 2.5 after armor. 1.65 after parry.

10 attacks from Dwarfs. 6.6 hits. 2.2 wound. 1.8 after armor. 1.49 after warpaint.

If my mathses is right.

Thereafter, Dwarfs win because Choppa buff is gone and thus they get +1 armor save and 1 harder to-wound. IF Savage Orcs lose Frenzy or didn't have it to begin with, Dwarfs absolutely cream them. This is also assuming they didn't go nuts and simply kill each other with Animosity.

They're basically the same unit. Dwarfs are -1M +1WS +2LD. Savage have Frenzy and choppas but pay for it with Animosity and no armor other than warpaint.

I know units are balanced 1:1, armies are balanced army:army (supposedly). But if anything, orcs have the lower hand in those matchups because of animosity. People talk about how broken shrunken head is, but you're trying to give it to all your units on top of their existing armor saves.

I really have no idea why you're trying to give such a powerful ability as a racial. It makes it extremely hard to balance individual units. Look at the 8th edition army books. TK can never get modifiers on shooting. Okay, they are all BS 2 and can't march ever and crumble. Ogres get bull charge. Okay, they are 30+ pts min for that ability. Animosity vs. Choppas is a terrible trade. Chaos Dwarfs are almost exactly what the current Dwarfs are. Resolute, Relentless and Contempt (no break test within 6" if they are CD). All other things being equal, you'd make the newest hardcover GW book obsolete with those rules, as it's what CD uses.

You want to make a shield wall rule, give it to ironbreakers and make them pay for it. Not the whole army.

A 'forever +1 ward' for the whole army is EXACTLY not what I proposed! It's against combat ... from the front ... if no-one is attacking you in the flank ... until you lose a round of combat ... for 2 units in the army (warriors and longbeards).

Hang on, that maths-hammer you just did involves a 5+ parry save: 1.65 is 2/3 of 2.5, ie a 1/3 chance of saving, and with the warriors getting this for FREE (at still 9pts per model) the still LOSE to the orcs in round one (and therefore lose the parry for the rest of the combat if you use my rule).

Haven't you actually just disproved your own point about this rule being powerful? And proved that 9pt dwarf warriors need a boost to keep up with 9 point savage orcs?

And finally on your example savage orcs are already DESIGNED to win quickly or not at all, that is the whole point of both frenzy and choppas. And they have magic to bail them out if its going badly which dwarfs don't

In my suggestion I have also given the opponent every opportunity to remove this bonus, through the use of rudimentary tactics, such as don't charge the big defensive unit in the front if you don't think you can win round 1, and if possible charge them in the side.

Yeah its still a struggle to convince people to take sword and board over gw. I mean you could try and force them (you can't have more of x than y) but that's not fun for anyone and would lead to generic armies. I still think with a shield wall though warriors and 'rangers' (who are the primary exponents of gws in the fluff) make a natural hammer and anvil combo and I wouldn't mind seeing one of each be the standard core in a dwarf army. And probably over 50% of competitive dwarf builds are already built around scouting rangers so whatever your intentions designing an army it's at the mercy of players once its out there! lol.

Quickly (coz this is another looong post) on war machines how about for a cannon:
135(?)pts: it has 4 crewmen (and so 4 wounds and 4 attacks) and can re-roll the first scatter dice
then something similar for the others, so 60pts for a BS4, w4 bolt thrower, 130pts for a str4, w4, re-roll arty dice stone thrower?

Making their 'superiority' (ie-re-rolls) come from a 4th crewman (or collective experience of 4) would be nice and fluffy and mke them different to empire machines with nearby engineers. Also free up master engi's to do interesting things. Bret trebs have a bunch of wounds right? I'm not breaking the mould by suggesting gwarf machines have 4?

Re-rolling the first Artillery die only on Cannons is exactly what I was looking for!

As for an improved Parry, let me say first that I'm just going abandon it. Here's why:

- I still strongly feel that shields should be the go-to option, the all-comers choice for every unit with that option. Such is not the case in 8th edition (was barely the case in 7th, but more so), and any kind of rule to fix that would probably involve not only changing shields (and spears, if I had my way), but changing great weapons, halberds, and the like, and some point adjustments, and maybe the way combat works.
In a (Warhammer) world where shields are as I have desrcibed above, we have the Dwarf battleline. Hardy. Well-armoured. High Leadership. And fairly slow.
So if shields were what they ought to be, Dwarfs wouldn't need anything to make them better at it beyond the things that make them Dwarfs.

More on war machines:

- with a Forging Cannon only rolling that first die, would that ability go back to being worth 35-ish points (I cranked it up to 50 earlier, for a 140pt cannon without an Engineer).

- I haven't seen Dwarf bolt throwers since 7th, back when they could auto-pop chariots. Any ideas on how to crank up their points and make them look a little more tempting?

- I'd like to make the war machines have 1 upgrade as "standard", with maybe a choice for 1 more out of a list of 2 or 3. Grudge Throwers nearly come standard at S4 and Accurate. Which should be the status quo, and what other options would you suggest (for any of the machines)?

- Here's what I'm thinking so far:

Cannon 140pts
re-rolls first Artillery die and Misfire! rolls
W4 A4
- Immolation option (2d6 S5 magical hits) 25pts
- crew upgrade option (Stand and Shoot! reaction via Dwarf pistols) ...?

Grudge Thrower 120pts
re-rolls scatter die and Misfire! rolls
W4 A4
- +1 Strength 25pts
- Thunderstones (dangerous terrain? reduced movement?) 50pts

Bolt Thrower 95pts
S7 and BS4
W4 A4
- +1 on Multiple Wounds 20pts
- +1 to Hit 25pts
- exploding bolts (small template S3 AP) 50pts

Some of that stuff should be through the Master Engineer, but I'm just throwing it down for now. What about entrenchment? Still with the Engineer, or as an upgrade?

The benefits of an Engineer upgrade should be automatic for them all, as well as the cost. But if the rule isn't attached to an Enginner, you don't lose the Misfire! re-rolls/+1 BS with the loss of a specific model (I'd do that for simplicity's sake). How much more would that cost? What if the units had crews of 3, but with that rule?

- Also, what say you to the Organ Gun? I basically wanted to go with the trend of "no auto-hits", but I wanted to keep it at somewhat the same level of potential destruction. 2 Artillery dice means twice the chance for a Misfire!, but you can re-roll them unless they're both a Misfire!...?

- finally, on Ironbreakers:

these guys are supposed to be the most independent warriors of the throng, and the most hardened of veterans.
I'm thinking either essentially mini-characters (T5, 1+ save) or an elite infantry unit as above, but maybe their special abilities can be like Man Eaters? You can pick Stubborn or (something) Strider or Eternal Grudge or Magic Resistance, etc? What would you guys think of that? Seems like, if they're a more or less standard unit, they should only get one super-cool ability, because something like Stubborn or Hatred is a lot better on a 30-Dwarf/30-wound unit than on a 6-Ogre/18-wound unit.

Well forging is worth 35pts atm for a 125pt total, so if just re-rolling the 1st die is a slight downgrade,but then make the cannon have 4 'crew' i think is a pretty serious upgrade (no dying from d3 wounds and more attacks back in combat) I think 140 is pretty appropriate. Looks like you've done the same extrapolation on the others so I like it.

Make some of the different ammo options flaming, people need their flaming war machines! Is the cannon one short range, like grapeshot? because that would be cool! I like the GT options but people will always take +1 str if that bothers you (I would take it).

BT is too expensive, start at 60 for current cost with engineer, then another say 15pts for +1 str. (in the current rules i thought 25 was worth it for GT's but never BT's)so 75pts ish? But +1 to hit means 2s at short range,too reliable for any warmachine ATM. Exploding ammo is awesome though, make it 2d6 hits otherwise you have to hit then scatter and its too much like a GT, str 3, flaming, -1sv?

As for engineer upgrades, in the current rules he becomes just another crew marker, making the machine w4, a4 and bs4 and he can't be targeted specifically, so you don't have to worry bout special rules there, they already do it all!

Hmmm... organ guns. CD have their own version, 2dA, pick the highest, but then thats max 10 shots before rolling to hit. But 2 dice added, with one misfire discarded (but 2 blowing it up) means anywhere between 2 and 20 shots, that could be fun. they have 4 barrels right, how bout 4d3?

Dunno bout ironbreakers, something that fits with them normally fighting in tunnels!

And thanks for calling time on the shield debate and saving rustfield and I from ourselves

I don't think war machines should have the OPTION of getting better. I think they should always be better. It even seems un-Dwarfy for them to elect not to build the best weapon they can every time. Also, I think Dwarfs shouldn't have the option of cheap war machines.

Immolation is far too strong. That basically 1-shots any monster and kills infinite ogres in a line. I think you can go a little less severe than a blanket reroll and say stuff like can subtract/add 1 to the scatter direction or such. I'm not a huge fan of engineers because Empire has them, though their is more a master of ballistics. An engineer is going to make stuff stronger, more durable. Maybe he gives war machines a LoS (!).

Bolt Throwers are screwed for everyone. If you have the option of cannons, I can't ever see why you wouldn't take one. So they have a much bigger question of how do you make them (a lot) better? I got an idea, but it will need significant balancing: no lookout sir. I had read a war report by Caesar himself, not sure which one, ages ago where they were besieging a fort and were using an equivalent of a bolt thrower and a would hit a lookout at the corner of the fort. He died and another guy would come take his place. He died and another would take his place. The point was, they didn't have anything so accurate, being barbarians, and thus they didn't believe anyone else did and thought it was just luck they were killing their guys. A bolt thrower is so accurate and fast and powerful, it is not possible to get a lookout sir. How you balance that, I'll leave to you, as it could be breaking. But it's close to Sniper on a war machine.

I really like the Maneater rules. Because it allows you to have an army that is flexible without spending another $200 in real life and painting new units and such. Which is also why I'm a fan of wizards such as slann. T5, 1+ save is going to be horrendously expensive. You're in Mournfang territory. The problem is, if you give them 1W you still have to make them really expensive because the vast majority of other race's specials/cores can't fight a T5 1+. So you have to make them very pricey, but if they only have 1A, it's hard to justify their cost--you only need an anvil to be so anvilly and at some point you need to actually kill stuff. I.e., if they are 25pts I think they might be too cheap, as they can tarpit anything with just 15 troops cuz they will never take a wound. Getting their cost is going to be tricky IMHO.