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Made in gb
Dutiful Citizen Levy




I recently read about the dark elves and thought, how about slave warriors? Units from other books, but with dark elf command squad and very low leadership.
Works perfectly with dark elf history

 
   
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Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought




Potters Bar, UK

Does it fit? Ill admit to knowing only vagueries about the Dark Elf fluff (apart from the Malus darkblade series, which ive read) but i dont recall any mentions of arming slaves anywhere....

It seems in keeping with Dark Elves overall, but once you think of just how outnumbered Dark Elves are by slaves anyway, armiung them is tantamount to suicide (as happens a couple of times in the Malus series where the slaves then go on a rampage killig all the Dark Elves they can out of revenge).

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Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

Dark Elf slaves would work in one context. Sac dagger slaves. And if we have that, why would we take warriors?

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

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Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Using units from other books in general is a bad idea; slave Chaos Warriors or Dwarf Hammerers or...I dunno, Terradon Riders.
But in some big battle? I'd say it would work just fine.

As for if it fits and the problem with arming slaves, I say this: the Black Guard, Executioners, and, most of all, the Witch Elves, are all incredibly talented in the ways of dealing out horrific pain. The slaves might be able to overthrow them, but not without suffering such agony that it would quickly break their fighting spirit.
I remember stuff from the old book; cutting out tongues because they were crying too much, beheading them rather than unlocking their manacles, and, my favorite, letting the slaves go, then shooting them all as they cross the field, to create uneven terrain for the enemy cavalry.

I'd do something like...this?:
Slave: 3pts
WS2 BS2 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld4
Equipment: hand weapon
Special Rules: Expendable

Expendable: Dark Elf characters may not join units of Slaves. Slaves do not cause Panic tests in any friendly units, except other Slave units. Units of Slaves do not count towards the minimum Core in an army.

Nice and simple. Whatcha think?

 
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

So they're less durable than warriors, less effective in combat, and can't be sacrificed.

They are currently worse harpies without fly and a lower LD and one less attack.

The current DE book is fine, if not lacking in the monsters department. I say, bring back beastmasters and some new monsters!

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

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Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





I think one of the defining elements of a Dark Elf army is they don't really have anything that offers up excellent survivability* for their points. I'm thinking of survivability for their points being units that have some combination of toughness, armour and a low points cost that they are much harder to kill than a unit of their points size should be. So skaven slaves are a great example. No armour and only T3, but at 2 points a pop it can take a long time to grind down and break 100 point unit. Empire knights are another example, as the right opponent can really struggle to get through that 1+ save, making just a unit of 5 costing little more than 100 points an excellent anvil.

Dark Elves don't really have that. Spearmen aren't bad in the role because they're so cheap, but they're nowhere near the best examples of cheap stuff that excels in being way harder to kill than it should be. A unit like this would be changing that core design element of the Dark Elves.

In terms of flavour I like the idea, and think Warp Solutions proposed rules are a pretty good start (it'd be really cool if there was some kind of scope for the slave block rebelling and attacking the Dark Elves), but only really as a once-off, special rule for a big game. In terms of regular Dark Elf games, I kind of like how the Dark Elves are set up right now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/14 04:22:13


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Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

I have said it before and I shall say it again, the only role slaves will have on the battlefield is for sacrificial purposes. And if we make them a perfect sacrificial unit, what is the point of taking warriors?

And on Warpsolutions idea, If a character cannot join the unit how are they meant to be used? Tarpit? That goes against the very nature of the army. Just throwing a block of 100 slaves at something keeping them with in 12" of LD 10 and throwing mindrazored corsairs/witches/black guard in the flank? No thank you. As nice as that would be. We already have that playstyle in skaven.

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

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Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@sebster: that's a good break-down, sir. Also, I completely agree on the topic of the Dark Elf play-style.
At this point, I always assume that an entirely new unit be used only specific games/scenarios, rather than to the book as a whole.

@thedarkavenger: first, allow me to point out that I agree. The Dark Elf book is fine. But such a unit has its place in some specific scenario (like a raid on a coastal town, or a gladiatorial arena, or whatever).
But beyond that-
1. Yes, they're worse than Warriors and Harpies. And they cost 3pts a model.
2. You say they'd only ever be used as a sacrificial unit, but then go on to say that doing so would make Warriors pointless. Care to explain how that isn't a self-defeating statement?
3. The Skaven play-style is largely based on the fact that they use slaves.
I mean, you've got a mass of starving, mistreated, ill-equipped and poorly-trained people forced into combat. What purpose do you think they'd have on the field? There's only one: as a big pile of meat to slow the enemy down.

Thinking more about it though, I agree there needs to be something more. Skavenslaves almost never revolt, because they're born into the lifestyle, because they're so sick and weak, because their lifespan (even when left unaltered by the knives and teeth of their neighbors) is so short, etc.
So some kind of simple mechanic, like maybe if there's no Dark Elf character within 12", they attack the nearest unit, friendly or unfriendly.
Or maybe they should be a unit like a Squig Herd or Giant Rats, and they're only under control as long as there's a Beastmaster in the unit.

Also, on the subject of sacrificial slaves, it'd be cool if a Sorceress could bring along a few warm bodies, all shackled and chained up, for just such a use. A unit that has no ranks and cannot make attacks, max size 10. Something like that.

But, once again, I say: adding a unit to be now and forever available in an Army Book--especially one that's currently good--is not a good idea. But if you want to make something new and cool, that's fine. More than that, it's awesome.

Of course, it's always surprised me that Dark Elves never had such a unit.

 
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

Warpsolution wrote:
@thedarkavenger: first, allow me to point out that I agree. The Dark Elf book is fine. But such a unit has its place in some specific scenario (like a raid on a coastal town, or a gladiatorial arena, or whatever).
But beyond that-
1. Yes, they're worse than Warriors and Harpies. And they cost 3pts a model.
2. You say they'd only ever be used as a sacrificial unit, but then go on to say that doing so would make Warriors pointless. Care to explain how that isn't a self-defeating statement?
3. The Skaven play-style is largely based on the fact that they use slaves.
I mean, you've got a mass of starving, mistreated, ill-equipped and poorly-trained people forced into combat. What purpose do you think they'd have on the field? There's only one: as a big pile of meat to slow the enemy down.


If DE had slaves, I would use them in a heartbeat. But there is a reason that they don't. That would defeat the style of the book. And what I meant by them being worse than warriors and harpies is that they are clearly designed to be a chaff drop that fills the role of warriors/harpies. But they move slower than harpies, and can't be sacrificed like warriors.

The only reason warriors are taken in the current book are as a sacrificial unit. For combat core we have corsairs, for shooty core we have crossbowmen. This pretty much goes, 'have a unit that will allow you to use a bent item for a really minimal amount of points.' So forgive me if I think that this is a bad idea.

As for them tarpitting the enemy, that goes against the very nature of DE. It mentions in the book several times they use lightning fast raids to beat their opponents.


Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

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Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





How do they fill the role of Warriors or Harpies? Especially since you pointed out how they differ. Or do you just mean they're all Core?

Point-for-point, I thought I recalled Warriors out-damaging Corsairs in several situations while also being more durable and sacrifice-able. But maybe not.

And I don't understand the following:
 thedarkavenger wrote:
This pretty much goes, 'have a unit that will allow you to use a bent item for a really minimal amount of points.' So forgive me if I think that this is a bad idea.


And yes, having masses of Slaves is not a tactic in the Dark Elf book, because their armies usually have the objective of gaining more slaves. But if there was an invasion, would they empty the mines and send in some be-shackled regiments of slaves? Don't see why not.
If a culture has slaves, why don't they lash them to the head of the lines? Especially a race that can live for centuries and reproduces remarkably slowly.
More over: I agree with you. As I said before. In every thread like this. This idea is best for a special scenario to add some spice to the game. But that's how I view all proposed rules like this. Scribbling down a new unit on a piece of notebook paper and keeping it jammed in the army book to use now and forever in any game you wish is obviously a bad idea.

What about my second idea: a small, cheap unit that can't attack. Sure, it's better than Warriors for Dagger-use, but if you ever so much as touched the unit, you'd net a lot of points real fast. The unit might as well be Skirmished, so it takes up more space and can't get ranks.
...or it could just be an upgrade to the character. The Witch Elves do a lot of Sacrificing, no? Of course, then we have the Cauldron of Blood, which wraps all that up nicely as-is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/12 02:42:55


 
   
Made in gb
Doomed Slave





ScarletPheonix wrote:
I recently read about the dark elves and thought, how about slave warriors? Units from other books, but with dark elf command squad and very low leadership.
Works perfectly with dark elf history


Dark Elves would never use ther slaves in batlle, a trained warrior would cost less. they value slaves over most things dwarves built some of the most highly regarded buildings, humes are used for manual labor and they kill choas tainted things, for the lure of slaanesh and the pleasure cults would be to great for most dark elves.

"Through hate, all things are possible;"  
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

Warpsolution wrote:
How do they fill the role of Warriors or Harpies? Especially since you pointed out how they differ. Or do you just mean they're all Core?

Point-for-point, I thought I recalled Warriors out-damaging Corsairs in several situations while also being more durable and sacrifice-able. But maybe not.

And I don't understand the following:
 thedarkavenger wrote:
This pretty much goes, 'have a unit that will allow you to use a bent item for a really minimal amount of points.' So forgive me if I think that this is a bad idea.


And yes, having masses of Slaves is not a tactic in the Dark Elf book, because their armies usually have the objective of gaining more slaves. But if there was an invasion, would they empty the mines and send in some be-shackled regiments of slaves? Don't see why not.
If a culture has slaves, why don't they lash them to the head of the lines? Especially a race that can live for centuries and reproduces remarkably slowly.
More over: I agree with you. As I said before. In every thread like this. This idea is best for a special scenario to add some spice to the game. But that's how I view all proposed rules like this. Scribbling down a new unit on a piece of notebook paper and keeping it jammed in the army book to use now and forever in any game you wish is obviously a bad idea.

What about my second idea: a small, cheap unit that can't attack. Sure, it's better than Warriors for Dagger-use, but if you ever so much as touched the unit, you'd net a lot of points real fast. The unit might as well be Skirmished, so it takes up more space and can't get ranks.
...or it could just be an upgrade to the character. The Witch Elves do a lot of Sacrificing, no? Of course, then we have the Cauldron of Blood, which wraps all that up nicely as-is.


The warrriors and harpies both occupy roles the slaves would fulfill. Character bunkers and cheap redirectors. If you give the army something cheaper to fill those roles, why would anyone do anything other than take as much of it as they could.

And as for the emptying out the mines they don't do that, the Elves march to war, leaving behind a minimal presence in each of the cities.

I fail to see how the upgrade would work, if you propose something like the detachment system, I doubt that would work within the boundaries of the theme of the army. But giving the cauldron a limited number of slaves that they can use, whilst making each blessing require getting rid of a slave would work. Possibly.

Corsairs are far more durable against shooting and far better in combat. Yes, warriors have a parry save, but they don't have that much physical damage output.

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





The only time I've heard of slaves being used in battle by DE was a short story. The DE general faced Bretonnians on an open field. So he 'released' the slaves, who naturally ran toward their 'rescuers.'

The DE repeater crossbowmen shot them down midfield, creating rough terrain the heavy cav would have to cross to get to them.

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in gb
Whiteshield Conscript Trooper




London

 Vulcan wrote:
The only time I've heard of slaves being used in battle by DE was a short story. The DE general faced Bretonnians on an open field. So he 'released' the slaves, who naturally ran toward their 'rescuers.'
The DE repeater crossbowmen shot them down midfield, creating rough terrain the heavy cav would have to cross to get to them.


Expanding on this idea. Slaves could be poorly armed, or armed with random weapons (such as the Empire Miltia) and could be used like Skaven-Slaves: To block enemy units in their path to give you time. I don't think they should be a replacement for warriors, or even any equivalent of warriors. This is because they (as a replacement or equivalent of warriors) would not suit the DE style: They are not a horde army.

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