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Now I like 8th edition for some reason because I played in it mostly. I have some problems with steadfast and with fights in initiative order mostly not mattering for most big fights. Back in 7th for instance if you slayed some models in a combat before their initiative time to strike models wouldn't replace them immediately to strike back giving higher initiative armies a better chance. Though I suppose this would lead to the swordmasters scaring the crap out of everybody again. Just a personal preference for me but maybe that's because I play skaven. Realistically this would make battles vs elves and warriors of chaos all the harder in close combat.

However before I stray too far from my main point. Why is magic in 8th so unreliable? I get that the winds of magic are random but often times in 8th sometimes a crappy magic phase means an army that relies on said magic will get owned hard. It's so random most of the time I don't even want to take many wizards anymore. I only use one level 4 currently though this is more because skaven magic is average at best and plague magic has a very limited range with no power to boost any of the spells whatsoever. I suppose it's strange because I feel like magic is OP but it's so random that it isn't really very reliable. Some games an enemy casts 2-3 spells a turn and you can't do jack or get unlucky enough to be unable to stop them. So what i'd like is for 9th edition to at least tone down the rulebook lores as we agree some are stupidly OP, give all the factions boosted versions of spells like 8th introduced and to make magic more reliable by giving higher level wizards more dice to cast with. I suppose my problem is that magic can either be a game changer or breaker and for quite a few factions it isn't based on player skill. Sadly I don't know how they would fix this. Perhaps winds of magic are generated as they are (since to do otherwise might screw up some vampire abilities now if no other factions) but depending on wizard level allow higher level wizard to be able to generate more dice than the lower level wizards. Also instead of 2d6 magic dice make it 2d6/2 or make it an artillery dice worth of magic dice possibly. Of course I suppose the misfire would be even worse.

So I have problems finding a fix for this. Mostly all that needs serious fixing is making the main rulebook lores less OP in comparison to army book lores.

Also for anybody that complains about skaven magic please read it and then shut up. Most plague spells are either 12" range or almost as bad (if I recall it's about 3 spells with 12" range, one with close combat or template range and one with an 18" range). I pretty much have to go up to my opponent and have my wizard beat him with the butt of his staff before I can use magic on him if I use plague magic and none of the spells have boosted or longer range versions. Not only that skitterleap the one spell that allows you to go anywhere on the board pretty much often puts your wizard into harm's way if you try to get within range to use plague spells. For me it's just frustrating seeing an opponent boost his guys up from toughness 4 to 8 with the use of two spells and wither only doing -1 to enemy toughness even if it's for the whole game and I have to be near the enemy to do this where they can just buff their guys for a while and 4 full castings of wither would take forever to do what they can. Also quite a lot of skaven magic is very situational. The 13th spell only works on infantry, plague is awesome but it might and often does backfire on you and horribly if you don't have the right gear, against a non-shooting and non-flying army howling warpgale is total crap, cracks call won't do jack vs dark elf armies, high elf armies or even most warriors of chaos armies and many more. For skaven magic tends to hold you back more than it helps you as those are points thrown out for not a lot of reward.

The only point I will give you is that magic is unreliable... I do not think we should be throwing around an artillery di worth of power dice or 2d6*2 worth!

Magic is already, as you pointed out, horribly OP'ed sometimes. I don't want my opponent throwing around max dice phases every turn.

I wouldn't mind a more balanced approach to power dice generation though, something like 7th had with wizards generating dice, but making it that only that THEY can use them. Then rolling dice for the army as a whole.

Of course to offset this, wizards would have to generate dispel dice in the same way... Not sure, just thinking out loud here.

i think magic is one of two things that need to be fixed as well, The randomness really can turn a game, the other is Steadfast. but I will not go into that again.

Option1 to allow you to channel a dice for every wizard level, but that would just leads to more wizards trying to cast more spells, look at wizard spam for Beastmen and O&G.

2. Maybe make it easier to channel dice, lvl 1 channels on 6+, level 2 on 5+, ETC.

Also I feel that all the WMD spells should be takes a wound, not dies outright, and those same spells ignore all saves except ward. I also feel that there should be more danger of miscasting when you roll more dice, roll 2 dice get box cars, Great job now roll on this chart that might do some damage. roll 6 dice hoping to get box cars, you might have just wipe out your army.

or something like, after rolling on the miscast table, (which would need to be modified), roll a d6, if you rolled 2 dice and miscast, you lose the spell on a 1, used 3 dice, lose the spell on a 1 or 2, if you rolled 6 dices, you lose the spell on a roll other than a 6.

You argue about magic being OP, but on the same time, it can horribly cripple armies. Like when a VC list gets double 1 phases.

Magic, by it's very nature is fickle. If you make it reliable, then you might as well take it out completely, as it isn't magic anymore.

The only thing that needs any reworking in the magic system really, are the SAVE OR DIE! spells. I get that they are meant to be the spells of lore that can decimate armies, but that doesn't translate to the game. There needs to be something to stop people just 6 dicing them. Like if the mage irresistables one, he suffers the effects.

I would prefer to see the effect of the Winds of Magic moved. Currently it sits at the "generating amount of spells you can cast" point (effectively, because no. of dice will essentially determine the number of spells).

Rather I'd like to see casting limits on all wizards (L1-2 = 1 spell per phase, L3-4 = 2, L5+ = 3....as an example), and have Winds of Magic determined in such a way as it's effect is applied to the difficulty of casting the spell.

You'd still have turns where magic was good or bad, but at least individual wizards would have a consistent opportunity to attempt to use their powers, and also a limit too.

my friend gets mad at me cause i dispell all his cast attempts againgst me. I tend to however also miscast and kill my own guys in those same games so i dont see what the problem is, balance wise.

I find it interesting to note they have removed basically all the +PD abilities from the game other than a few. That means the BRB, if/when rewritten, would be able to much more easily be changed.

Like if Winds became 6 + D6 tomorrow (with dispel being like...the greater of 3 or the D6). Anyway, that change could be put in without some army going lololol I have +1PD every cast.

The #6 FTW spells aside, my main with the current magic phase is that is has no ability to scale with larger pts games.

12 dice max is fine for games upto the 2250-2400pts mark, but when you regularly play with 3k+, 12 dice max/phase is absolute weak-sauce as half your wizards stand around just twiddling their thumbs cheering on their Lv4.
It also makes a lot of spell combos between various Lores near worthless as you don't have the ability to generate enough dice to get those combos off.

Perhaps roll one dice for winds of magic and then the rest of the wizards have a boosted type of 'channeling' effect or each generates dice. As is channeling is one of the crappier often more useless things I've seen in 8th. So yeah I believe there needs to be random chance but it'd be nice if the magic phase was average to very good rather than 'Why even bother casting?' to 'Omg I have so many dice I hope I don't miscast early!' to even 'Well great a phase where my enemy has as many dispel dice as I have to cast with. Hopefully one spell goes off.'

Also yeah magic should scale better with larger games. Currently I just don't like the magic phase. I wouldn't say skaven magic is the worst right now but it certainly isn't that strong considering the rulebook spells and the boosted versions of all the other army books. I feel like i'm trying to hit my opponent with a blunt foot-long stick while they have a broadsword to hit me with. Skaven plague magic is just way too freaking short ranged.

Experiment 626 wrote:
The #6 FTW spells aside, my main with the current magic phase is that is has no ability to scale with larger pts games.

12 dice max is fine for games upto the 2250-2400pts mark, but when you regularly play with 3k+, 12 dice max/phase is absolute weak-sauce as half your wizards stand around just twiddling their thumbs cheering on their Lv4.
It also makes a lot of spell combos between various Lores near worthless as you don't have the ability to generate enough dice to get those combos off.

There is nothing stopping you from agreeing with your opponent to roll extra dice. This came up in a 4000pt game I played once, we agreed to roll 3D6 instead of 2 for winds of magic IIRC. You could roll 4 or more for really big games if you wanted to.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The only thing that needs any reworking in the magic system really, are the SAVE OR DIE! spells. I get that they are meant to be the spells of lore that can decimate armies, but that doesn't translate to the game. There needs to be something to stop people just 6 dicing them. Like if the mage irresistables one, he suffers the effects.

Miscasts need to be based on how many dice you used to cast the spell. So if you miscast with 6 dice, it's more dangerous than if you miscast with 2, which makes sense in real life (well, real life if there was magic): you're trying to control more magic, do more advanced stuff, there's going to be greater risks.

I think a simple modifier to the Miscast Table, +1 for every dice used to cast the spell, would solve the issue. Obviously, the new Miscast Table would have 2-4 as the nicer result, with 12+ being really very dangerous.

For balancing winds of magic, I came up with an idea that we're going to try on Saturday.
At the start of each game turns magic phase, both players roll a single die for winds of magic. This result applies for both players magic phases.

Example:
You win the roll to go first, and go first. On the start of your magic phase, you roll a 3, and I roll a 5. For your magic phase, you get 8 power dice, and I get 5 dispel dice. On my magic phase, I get 8 power dice, and you get 5 dispel dice.
With both channel as normal.

What this would do is:
1) Apply the randomness equally to both players.
2) Give a very slight advantage for going second (currently their is none), as you have a good feel for the magic phase before you charge or move.

Effects that change the winds of magic, only apply to that players turn. If a vampire blows 75 points on master of the black arts; the re-roll only applies to his own magic phase, the other player would us the original dice.
Where as the Chromatic Tome (daemon item) would let the daemon player re-roll his dice; but would let his opponent re-roll as well on his next magic phase (because the item gives re-rolls to both players).






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Shadow wrote:

I think a simple modifier to the Miscast Table, +1 for every dice used to cast the spell, would solve the issue. Obviously, the new Miscast Table would have 2-4 as the nicer result, with 12+ being really very dangerous.

I like that idea a lot. A 4 to 18 table for miscasts would work (since you have to roll at least 2 dice to miscast).

As for the number 6 nuking spells, I always liked having it cause miscasts, but not irresistible force. So if you roll a pair of 6's on your dwellers, I can still try and dispel it. If it does go off successfully, then it would also cause a miscast.

-Matt

Hm...so, to put some of these ideas side-by-side, and elaborate on some of them:

- make channeling easier: one channel/level, or +1 to channel/level.

- make the Miscast table more dangerous: do not allow Ward saves and/or modify the roll according to how many dice were used to cast the spell (more dice=more danger)

- getting rid of Irresistible Force. I think it'd be cool for your opponent to be able to attempt the dispel, but if he successfully did so, then you don't suffer the Miscast, as the energies are dissipated or what-have-you.
Things like the Feedback and Hex Scrolls would get better, but is that a great concern?

- Wizard levels generate Power and Dispel Dice, and the Winds of Magic determine how difficult/easy spells are to cast.
Probably one of the more complicated ideas, but I like the feel of it.

- modifying the #6 spells: allow Ward saves, make them deal wounds, not slay outright. What about any spell that says "every model in the unit..." instead uses a large template? It limits the number of models effected.

- the Winds of Magic scale with the size of the game: +1 die per 1,000pts above 2,000? The question, then, is how to determine how many Dispel Dice are generated. Half of the highest dice, rounded down, maybe?
Also, I think that, if you have so many Wizards who know the same Lore that there's not enough spells to go around, that you should be allowed to double-up on them. For big games with those armies that are limited in their Lore selection.

- one Winds of Magic roll for both players' phases. This seems to have some real potential.

- another thought: I'd get rid of Loss of Concentration. It encourages players to cast fewer spells with more dice, which translates to #6 spells with 6 dice.
Now, if the magic phase allowed me to one- or two-die spells without fear, and the Miscast table made me scared of box cars in large casting pools, I think we'd see a shift towards more, weaker spells.
Then we'd get into casting this or that spell, trying to draw out your opponent's Dispel Dice, and your opponent trying to guess your next move, etc. A much more involved, dynamic style of play.

- I think an overhaul on Magic Resistance would also help tone down The Big spells. Maybe MR Ward saves work against the Save or Die type spells, or maybe it goes back to giving you a bonus to dispel anything that targets directly effects the unit. That would be especially helpful, if Irresistible Force was removed from the game.

"- make the Miscast table more dangerous: do not allow Ward saves and/or modify the roll according to how many dice were used to cast the spell (more dice=more danger) "

I'd love that - mainly because I seem to miscast once or twice a game even when just using 2/3 dice a spell! Haha